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Is s8 just part 2 of s7? Then what is s9.

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  • Is s8 just part 2 of s7? Then what is s9.

    S8 sort of finishes off where s7 started. Buffy is alone, Willow is powerless and single, Giles is out of the picture, Xander and Dawn continue to have no role in the storyline, Spike is now "changed" again.
    Its like S7 was erased with s8.
    Don't get me wrong, they were similar in the wildly uneven writing and plot twists that seem like Mad-Libs. They both had too many new people and not enough of the old team, and both ran out of steam at the half point.
    The first 20 issues were pretty good, and so was the Willow one shot. But the last 20 are over the top fanboyism. And I'm glad that is gone.
    I submit that the goal of S9 will be to erase S6. Buffy will again have a young ward, Willow will have a doomed love and a dangerous path , and Xander and Dawn will still have no role.
    Does this sound valid?

  • #2
    Originally posted by drlloyd11 View Post
    S8 sort of finishes off where s7 started. Buffy is alone, Willow is powerless and single, Giles is out of the picture, Xander and Dawn continue to have no role in the storyline, Spike is now "changed" again.
    Its like S7 was erased with s8.
    Don't get me wrong, they were similar in the wildly uneven writing and plot twists that seem like Mad-Libs. They both had too many new people and not enough of the old team, and both ran out of steam at the half point.
    The first 20 issues were pretty good, and so was the Willow one shot. But the last 20 are over the top fanboyism. And I'm glad that is gone.
    I submit that the goal of S9 will be to erase S6. Buffy will again have a young ward, Willow will have a doomed love and a dangerous path , and Xander and Dawn will still have no role.
    Does this sound valid?
    Well, I was gonna say in response to the thread title that Season 9 feels like, if anything, part two of Season 6. BUt I don't know if I'm with you on the whole erasing thing, and I know for fact I'm not with you on the claim that much in Season 8 was about "over the top fanboyism". It was necessarily over the top, the story itself was of things spinning out of control up to and including Buffy's own powers.

    And most importantly, I don't think any of these things set out to explicitly put things back were they were at some prior point, not when we have quotes saying that "you can't go home again" is a big theme for Season 9. Plus, I don't think I agree with the "end of season 8 = beginning of season 7" premise in the first place.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      Well, I was gonna say in response to the thread title that Season 9 feels like, if anything, part two of Season 6. BUt I don't know if I'm with you on the whole erasing thing, and I know for fact I'm not with you on the claim that much in Season 8 was about "over the top fanboyism". It was necessarily over the top, the story itself was of things spinning out of control up to and including Buffy's own powers.

      And most importantly, I don't think any of these things set out to explicitly put things back were they were at some prior point, not when we have quotes saying that "you can't go home again" is a big theme for Season 9. Plus, I don't think I agree with the "end of season 8 = beginning of season 7" premise in the first place.
      Just to be clear, the first 20 issues of S8 were alot of fun, and I have liked the first 5 of s9.
      I'm not saying a literal "erase" but the biggest changes at the end of s7
      have been rolled back a bit. No longer is it an army of slayers, but back to Buffy on her own.
      I mean that can change in a single issue, but that's how I read it.

      But when you suggest "S9 will be part 2 of S6" I completely agree.
      I mean think about the end of season changes for s6 and the ones for s7. Things are *much* more like the end of S6 now.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by drlloyd11 View Post
        Just to be clear, the first 20 issues of S8 were alot of fun, and I have liked the first 5 of s9.
        I'm not saying a literal "erase" but the biggest changes at the end of s7
        have been rolled back a bit. No longer is it an army of slayers, but back to Buffy on her own.
        I mean that can change in a single issue, but that's how I read it.

        But when you suggest "S9 will be part 2 of S6" I completely agree.
        I mean think about the end of season changes for s6 and the ones for s7. Things are *much* more like the end of S6 now.
        I only agree that it's part 2 of Season 6 in that we're back, to some extent, to "Life being the Bad Bad". (Season 9 spoilers, since we're not on that subforum)
        Spoiler:
        Buffy's adrift, doesn't have a sense of purpose, is losing connection with friends and family, and now, oh look, she's pregnant and wasn't exactly looking for that. That's all stuff that could have come up in Season 6 -- could even come out of her affair with Spike had he been human and we'd be in more or less the same place plot wise if she was pregnant from ill-advised dumpster sex instead of ill-advised drunken hook-up sex.


        I personally don't think they lost the beam in Season 8 until the second half of 8.33. Pretty much the instant Buffy starts glowing, the season just fizzles and thankfully manages to reignite a bit for the last arc. Prior to that, it was just vampires-in-public and that arc of one-shots that weren't feeling sharp.
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        • #5
          IMO, it's too early to call that S9 will be Part II of S6, although the Spuffy-pimping and the disbandment of the Scoobies and the total Giles absence looks familiar.

          S9 #5 spoilers

          Spoiler:
          I do estimate, though, that Buffy's baby will be *life-affirming* compared to S6 which was life-disparaging, tacked on phoney Grave ending aside. Buffy will be scared and newborns are challenges but ME won't and really *can't* shit all over the concept of living when it involves a physical *baby*. It's perfectly within the course of human history and tradition to bash life on earth compared to Heaven and to have a fear of those who reverse death- it's harder to be so anti-life when it involves a baby.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
            IMO, it's too early to call that S9 will be Part II of S6, although the Spuffy-pimping and the disbandment of the Scoobies and the total Giles absence looks familiar.

            S9 #5 spoilers

            Spoiler:
            I do estimate, though, that Buffy's baby will be *life-affirming* compared to S6 which was life-disparaging, tacked on phoney Grave ending aside. Buffy will be scared and newborns are challenges but ME won't and really *can't* shit all over the concept of living when it involves a physical *baby*. It's perfectly within the course of human history and tradition to bash life on earth compared to Heaven and to have a fear of those who reverse death- it's harder to be so anti-life when it involves a baby.
            What you got from the "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it" callback and the ending of OMWF was that it was anti-life? Frak.

            Well, I guess art is open to interpretation, ain't it? So I guess I shouldn't be telling you you didn't understand a single thing that was happening in season 6 if "Grave" looked 'tacked' on. You're free to see it that way if you like it, and go on about how much it sucked...

            Originally posted by drlloyd11 View Post
            S8 sort of finishes off where s7 started. Buffy is alone, Willow is powerless and single, Giles is out of the picture, Xander and Dawn continue to have no role in the storyline, Spike is now "changed" again.
            Willow wasn't powerless at the beginning of season 7, and Giles wasn't out of the picture. And how is Spike "changed" in season 8?
            Its like S7 was erased with s8.
            Except for those thousands of new Slayers, Giles dead, no magic in the world, vampires being known to the public?

            I submit that the goal of S9 will be to erase S6. Buffy will again have a young ward, Willow will have a doomed love and a dangerous path , and Xander and Dawn will still have no role.
            Does this sound valid?
            I don't quite understand you. How would S9 "erase" S6? Bringing Tara back to life? Erasing Spike and Buffy's sexual history?
            Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 24-01-12, 10:43 PM.
            You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
              What you got from the "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it" callback and the ending of OMWF was that it was anti-life? Frak.

              Well, I guess art is open to interpretation, ain't it? So I guess I shouldn't be telling you you didn't understand a single thing that was happening in season 6 if "Grave" looked 'tacked' on. You're free to see it that way if you like it, and go on about how much it sucked...
              Fine and I will because I hate Season 6. However, S6's thesis is that heaven is the place of perfect peace and contentment and earth is the hell that we all have to contend with because we're here. And moreover, that in an ideal world, Buffy would be dead and still in heaven. Buffy's sudden, "I can feel joy! I love life" outburst in Grave doesn't change that above point that the writers were trying to drive home that everything would be better if Buffy died at 20 and stayed dead.

              Spoiler:
              The writers emphasized that Buffy shouldn't have been resurrected and being here as opposed to heaven is the biggest reduction in lifestyle since Angel was sent to Acathala. The writers won't say that Buffy's baby should have never been conceived despite it's entirely accidental conception and it's a shame that the baby was brought from peaceful nothingness to the earth that Buffy considered hell. There lies the difference. S9 has to be more life affirming than S6 because humanity has even more reverence for babies as a celebration of life than its already considerable reverence for heaven as a release from life.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                What you got from the "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it" callback and the ending of OMWF was that it was anti-life? Frak.

                Well, I guess art is open to interpretation, ain't it? So I guess I shouldn't be telling you you didn't understand a single thing that was happening in season 6 if "Grave" looked 'tacked' on. You're free to see it that way if you like it, and go on about how much it sucked...
                Overly defensive much?

                And yes, Grave felt totally tacked on to me too, feel free to call me on my total lack of appreciation for the profoundness of the season, the genius of Joss Whedon, the beauty of life and the cuteness of kittens.

                What you got from the "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it" callback and the ending of OMWF was that it was anti-life?
                A story where resurrecting a character is presented as a major step on the road to trying to end the world and where said character constantly wishes she were dead and only keeps on living out of a sense of obligation isn't at least somewhat anti-life? Okay...
                Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                • #9
                  I think Season 6 has bases to support either conclusion. But I think it comes off a little bit more life-affirming now that I've seen the profound nihilism about the value of identity and of life itself in "Dollhouse".

                  I think Season 6 had all the trappings of of a positive message about life, but it drags its heels too long for my liking. I think it's lost in the attempt to thread together the idea that life is worth living with this unambiguous insistence that it's always hard and miserable. So far, Season 9 has avoided that trap.
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                  • #10
                    I forgot how cathartic it feels to pull season 6 out of the ground and kick it some more

                    A few thoughts about s6:
                    -Before "Smashed" it was a fantastic season , after it you could feel Joss closing the door the room and leaving it in the hands of writers who woke up on third base and thought they hit a triple.
                    -The signature Joss movie of killing the most beloved character at the most shocking moment only works if the writing/story telling after this picks up the check. The reason writers *do not* do that all the time is it has to pay off and that's hard work.
                    The idea of Xander giving a talk to Willow and bringing her home with his love of his childhood friend is great, I wish they had bothered to write it.
                    If the writing had been "really good", it would have talked the fans down by reminding of us of our love for the show. Instead I found myself feeling ripped off.
                    -When Willow says she will kicks Buffy's ass in "two to go" I realized that I wanted her to. Not a good sign.
                    -Giles was badly written. He shows up with out an once of the sympathy he had to say "I'm sorry about Tara" with the same sense of involvement of someone walking past a panhandler and then cracks up laughing with Buffy.
                    -Giles plan was what?




                    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                    I think Season 6 has bases to support either conclusion. But I think it comes off a little bit more life-affirming now that I've seen the profound nihilism about the value of identity and of life itself in "Dollhouse".

                    I think Season 6 had all the trappings of of a positive message about life, but it drags its heels too long for my liking. I think it's lost in the attempt to thread together the idea that life is worth living with this unambiguous insistence that it's always hard and miserable. So far, Season 9 has avoided that trap.

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                    • #11
                      Actually Joss was involved all the way through. When he wasn't rewriting scenes because he was too busy, the other writers were working from his notes (as SDK in Dead Things).

                      And the season really got interesting since "Smashed" and was consistently great from "Normal Again" to the finale.

                      And if you were going to post a "season 6 suckz!" thread, comics forum is not the place for it. There's the forum called "Buffy", that's what you're looking for.
                      Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 25-01-12, 01:16 AM.
                      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                        What you got from the "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it" callback and the ending of OMWF was that it was anti-life? Frak.

                        Well, I guess art is open to interpretation, ain't it? So I guess I shouldn't be telling you you didn't understand a single thing that was happening in season 6 if "Grave" looked 'tacked' on. You're free to see it that way if you like it, and go on about how much it sucked...
                        Well its not just my opinion, it did suck. Somethings suck. This isn't "feelings", its hardcore geek fandom.

                        Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                        Willow wasn't powerless at the beginning of season 7, and Giles wasn't out of the picture. And how is Spike "changed" in season 8?
                        A the start of S7 Willow was afraid to use her magic. In fact she was profoundly broken. Giles was hardly in S7.

                        Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                        Except for those thousands of new Slayers, Giles dead, no magic in the world, vampires being known to the public?
                        None of those things are anything but background plot fluff. At the end of S7 Buffy was a leader of an army, Willow was a Goddess, Spike gave his life.
                        Now Buffy has no friends, Willow has no magic, and Spike..well..we will see.


                        Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                        I don't quite understand you. How would S9 "erase" S6? Bringing Tara back to life? Erasing Spike and Buffy's sexual history?
                        I'm not saying it will, but it could move the canon back to a healthy place.

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                        • #13
                          Season 6 is wonderful. I'm in the middle of rewatching it now and it amazes me how well all the various arcs hold up and what a great job the writers do with Buffy's depression. It also contains some of the most profound and moving moments of the series for me, particularly as a Buffy fan, with moments such as;

                          Alt!Joyce; "Be strong, baby. I know this hurts. I know the world feels like a hard place sometimes. But you've got people here who love you. Your dad and I have all the faith in the world in you. We'll always be with you. You've got a world of strength in your heart, I know you do, you just need to find it again. Believe in yourself"

                          Buffy; "Thankyou."

                          It moves me to tears every time. Gah!!

                          The season is relentless in making us miserable. It beats us down and is such a tough slog and every time we think there'll be some reprieve, it hits us again. And that's why it's brilliant. Because that's depression. It avoids all the magical quick fixes of 'tv land' and makes us go through what Buffy goes through and I'll always love it for that.

                          I actually find it to be really uplifting. And, no, drlloyd11, it is just your opinion. It's an opinion many people will disagree with. Nobody gets to claim their opinion is some kind of fact.
                          Last edited by vampmogs; 25-01-12, 01:41 AM.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                            Actually Joss was involved all the way through. When he wasn't rewriting scenes because he was too busy, the other writers were working from his notes (as SDK in Dead Things).

                            And the season really got interesting since "Smashed" and was consistently great from "Normal Again" to the finale.

                            And if you were going to post a "season 6 suckz!" thread, comics forum is not the place for it. There's the forum called "Buffy", that's what you're looking for.
                            drlloyd only posted this thread to compare and contrast S9 with S7- the conversation dovetailed into a conversation about S6 and S9's view of on life which was the main point that I was making and I think it's fair to have a conversation on that level on the comics forum even if my position is negative on S6.

                            drlloyd, then went into a list of complaints about S6, but I think he/she can spell "sucks" so no need for the implication that he/she is stupid...

                            Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                            The season is relentless in making us miserable. It beats us down and is such a tough slog and every time we think there'll be some reprieve, it hits us again. And that's why it's brilliant. Because that's depression. It avoids all the magical quick fixes of 'tv land' and makes us go through what Buffy goes through and I'll always love it for that.

                            I actually find it to be really uplifting.
                            Buffy's, "I've gotten over my clinical depression because I'm trapped in a pit with my sister when the world's about to end!" *was* a quick fix. Some depression. No need for a psychiatrist or anti-depressants or steady indicators that Buffy was talking out her pain or mental health exercises or anything that many depressed people on our plane of existence get. No statement that Buffy considers being on earth *better* than being in heaven. Buffy just says that she's cured and she is. It was literally a quick fix. I don't know how someone can call it a long fix or whatever.

                            There's got to be some clever saying on how opinions are just that but I'm talking from a place of logic/having viewed S6 when I describe it as having some vague ambitions for some life-affirming message but in execution, reading as nihilistic and anti-life.

                            And I think that the anti-life position of S6 was somewhat affirmed by making flakey meta canon in Willow and Buffy thinking that Tara dying was a karmic trade of some sorts for Buffy (rather than an act of a murderer and a product of the Scoobies being so high on their own angst and ennui that they were crappy crime-fighters throughout S6) and it being treated as some point of growth for Willow to reject Tara as a guide to let her "rest in peace" and never consider the possibility that Tara's spirit was signing up to be Willow's guide because Tara wanted a reprieve from a hell that her spirit had been trapped in or because Tara considers helping Willow with the consciousness that it entails *better* than floating around in some peaceful warm heaven.
                            Last edited by Dipstick; 25-01-12, 01:55 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Her scene in the pit wasn't a quick fix. It was the logical progression from how she was slowly but surely getting better throughout the course of the season. From realizing she didn't want to die in Gone, to ending things with Spike and (literally) stepping back into the light in As You Were, Joyce's inspirational speech in Normal Again and the positive efforts she made with Dawn in Entropy. She even managed to laugh again in the Magic Box with Giles. You'd be ignoring all her development that season to see what happened in the pit as a quick fix and not just the final push in making her truly embrace life again. It was the sudden fear of loosing the world that reminded of why it was so dear to her again. And big shocks like that can and do have profound effects on people suffering from depression. I've seen it on numerous occasions.

                              Besides, she wasn't cured. She made a lot of progress but her depression still informs her developments in S7 and throught the comics too. She may not suffer from it as badly but she's written as someone who still deals with it on a regular basis. People who've had clinical depression very rarely get over it completely and it has it's way of sneaking back up on them. And that's definitely how I read some of Buffy's arc from S6 onwards.

                              And, no, I've never thought S6 was anti life. Far from it.
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