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  • #16
    Originally posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
    I'm not sure that Bangel is completely over - after all, Joss won't be Joss if he moves off the fence.
    Bangel is certainly not over as a relationship in general. But it has to be over as a romantic relationship/possibility, or else I'll lose any respect for Joss's storytelling and characterization.

    If he didn't want to move from the fence, he shouldn't have done the Twilight arc.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    • #17
      If once Buffy is "cookies" she still wants to be with Angel after everything else that's happened, in my book she's the kind of cookies that are not properly baked and gives everyone parasites.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ubi4soft View Post
        Hello there.

        Are you this Darynthe Happy Birthday Buffy! An rushed essay of Once More with Feeling???

        Welcome back to the club, then.
        Oh my you have a great memory! Thanks for remembering that and for the welcome!. LOL

        Yeah, I am back once more with feeling.
        (by the way, what a gorgeous Spike art? Where can I see it in better resolution?)

        Originally posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
        Welcome to the thread, Darynthe!

        I may be wrong, but I always had the impression that Joss is VERY interested in exploring Angel/Faith dynamics. I suspect that on the first two seasons of AtS Joss kept Cordelia as a bench-warmer because he hoped to lure ED as a regular or, at least, a recurring star. But by season 4 it was too late, and he needed her on BtVS more.

        But now Joss can finally do what he mants with Angel and Faith. And I'm thrilled about them.

        Re: Illyria. Again, I may be wrong, but I have the impression that he'll eventually pair her with Willow. Joss loves to surpass himself. Willow needs somebody who could surpass a snake-woman.

        I'm not sure that Bangel is completely over - after all, Joss won't be Joss if he moves off the fence. But, so far, Spike is next to Buffy, so I plan to enjoy their banter and to hope for smoochies and all the rest. Except... it would mean upcoming major badness, because it's Joss, you know.

        Last season Buffy and Angel produced a charming baby called Twilight. I guess that Joss has a lot of kinky ideas about vampire children
        Wow, Illyria with Willow... never thought about that one, well I am not a big fan of Willow's love life.

        I honestly never liked Angel. And it is not the actor, I really adore him in Bones... it is Angel per se. And now with what he did... did you check the art out of the new Angel comic?
        Spoiler:
        He is flippant about his killing Giles! I totally hate him so much, he is total scum...


        Therefore much more than my being an Spuffy fan, I prefer Buffy to end alone or with anyone else at all, except with Angel after what he has done. I would despise Buffy if she decides to have sex or a new relationship with him again. I totally agree with TimetravellingBunny here.

        Finally, Twilight was Buffy's child? What? I need to read the whole story, I just read the last three or four instalments...

        Anyway, please guys if you have time check this illustration I did of Buffy and her child...
        Last edited by Ehlwyen; 28-07-11, 05:05 PM. Reason: double post

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        • #19
          EDIT: Completely changed my mind on the whole baby issue! >.<

          As for Spuffy in season 9, I really hope to see a) Buffy pursuing Spike and b) Spike still in love with Buffy but the feelings are buried really deep. I think if they do get back together it should be near the end of the season or during season 10 (that was confirmed right?). I just want a lot of interaction and for their relationship to be an important one.
          Last edited by Tennyoelf; 20-08-11, 01:19 AM. Reason: Stupidity at it's best!


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          • #20
            Darynthe, your art work is lovely. Welcome back to fandom!

            I doubt we'll be seeing a Spuffy baby, or Buffy having a child with anyone. I'm willing to bet there will be no more mystical pregancies and think Buffy would be very hesitant to become a mother knowing her odds of surviving on a day-to-day basis are much, much lower than the average person's prospects of being around to raise a child.

            I doubt we'll be seeing any traditional "hearts and flowers" romantic from any future Spuffy, which is fine with me. As I've mentioned in other posts, I hope Spuffy Mach III will be on the lines of Nick and Nora Charles.

            Joss could definitely decide to completely revamp Bangel, so to speak, and of course that would have to include honestly and remorse between Buffy and Angel over the whole Twilight mess.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Reddygirl View Post
              [..] or Buffy having a child with anyone. I'm willing to bet there will be no more mystical pregancies and think Buffy would be very hesitant to become a mother knowing her odds of surviving on a day-to-day basis are much, much lower than the average person's prospects of being around to raise a child.
              With no magic maybe the apocalypses are gone also, Buffy may think she has a chance for a somehow normal longer life and take a chance to have a baby.

              Do you want Spike to have moved on? If so, what would you want that to look like? If not, what do you think Spike should be doing?

              I want him to be happy; if not "get up, get out, beat some nasties, repeat as needed"

              Do you think the transition from Chosen to #36's "crazy studly" should be addressed/revisited in S9?
              "Gunn dies, Illyria Survives, Spike shanshus, Angel looses an arm and Xander looses an arm too, which is odd because he wasn't even there."
              Joss Whedon at the High Stakes convention - 2004

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Reddygirl View Post
                Darynthe, your art work is lovely. Welcome back to fandom!

                I doubt we'll be seeing a Spuffy baby, or Buffy having a child with anyone. I'm willing to bet there will be no more mystical pregancies and think Buffy would be very hesitant to become a mother knowing her odds of surviving on a day-to-day basis are much, much lower than the average person's prospects of being around to raise a child.

                I doubt we'll be seeing any traditional "hearts and flowers" romantic from any future Spuffy, which is fine with me. As I've mentioned in other posts, I hope Spuffy Mach III will be on the lines of Nick and Nora Charles.
                ITA (except that I don't know who Nick and Nora are, so I'll have to google that one).

                Joss could definitely decide to completely revamp Bangel, so to speak, and of course that would have to include honestly and remorse between Buffy and Angel over the whole Twilight mess.
                I really doubt it. And that's because the issue of Angel having been Twilight, having killed Giles, B/A spacefrak causing the world nearly to end a lot of deaths, Buffy feeling that she committed a betrayal by sleeping with him and not being able to look at him not just because of what he did but also because he made her complicit in the whole disaster and because he reminds her of the most shameful actions she's ever committed in her life... is not the only obstacle to B/A. All those things are huge obstacles in-universe, and it's highly questionable if they could ever be convincingly overcome. However, this isn't the only problem that stands in the way of B/A being revamped as a romantic option.

                The other huge problem - which is insurmountable IMO - is the way that B/A was portrayed in the Twilight/Last Gleaming arc. Bangel romance was presented as based on the idea that some people are simply "meant" to be together, and this is what love is all about - "destiny" you can't fight, an eternal connection that has nothing to do with trust or support or actual emotional closeness or growing as persons or even knowing each other, and that is forever unchangeable and unchanged, no matter what, and trumps every other consideration. That's the essence of what Angel told Buffy in #33 and what she accepted to believe, for a while. #36 mocks that Twilighty idea of romance, and we get another reminder of it in Twilight-posessed-Angel's words to Buffy in #39 that she can't fight her destiny.

                This second problem is not just about the characters, but about the storytelling itself. To revamp Bangel as a romantic option after season 8, would ultimately end up justifying the Twilighty idea of love that season 8 was satirizing and destroying. No matter how you portray it, it would seem like Twilight!Angel was correct, Buffy and Angel really are and always have literally been meant to be together, Buffy will always love Angel no matter what because he's her destiny and it's a given that she'll always want him back whatever he does, it really was never even a question if, just when (as some B/A fans on this forum claim). It might also imply that there's just one 'true' love in a person's entire life, and even that a woman can never love anyone as much as her first lover. And with that, you can kiss Whedon's feminist beliefs goodbye, together with the idea that BtVS was never Twilight, or that BtVS shows people having actual character growth.

                It wouldn't just be Buffy betraying herself, it would be Whedon doing the same.
                Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 10-06-11, 11:30 AM.
                You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                • #23
                  Do you want Spike to have moved on? If so, what would you want that to look like? If not, what do you think Spike should be doing?

                  I have to say, I want Spike to be happy too. However I think that even if he did move on, he'll always have a large place in his heart for Buffy.

                  If Spike has moved on, I think it'll look like he is there for Buffy because he cares for her still and he'll keep his distance (so not that much interaction between them unless needed for battles, info, peep talk, but nothing else, nothing personal maybe). And if Spike hasn't moved on he'll be around more often, trying his best to be there for Buffy but also keeping her at a distance to protect his heart.

                  But in terms of story telling, I think they have a lot of things unresolved between them and that there is too much drama there for it not to be used. So I think he may seem like he has moved on but deep in his heart he hasn't.

                  As times continues, my hope for future romance between the two (in the far future) is dwindling.

                  Do you think the transition from Chosen to #36's "crazy studly" should be addressed/revisited in S9?

                  Oh yes, hell yes. From "I love you" to (paraphrasing) "oh yeah, that was crazy studly, whatever..." is one heck of a leap.

                  I can understand defensiveness and maybe a tad rudeness (because, no matter what, Buffy can be a bitch, though she is one of my favorite characters, so I say that with love) I can't understand the dismissive-ness of the whole scene. Maybe it was supposed to be defensiveness but came off as more dismissive. Buffy knows he died a hero's death, so to treat it like it was nothing seems so wrong.

                  I suppose the fact he didn't call (nor she) and the fact that so much time passed that their close relationship they had in season 7 was shot to hell. But still, how did it get there? How did Spike's memory not even register in those memory cubes? Why was Spike hardly mentioned? I really want to know why, since he had a huge impact on Buffy for almost the entire show (seasons 2-7).

                  I know of some spuffy theories, but I really want the truth, even if it's anti-spuffy because I care about the characters themselves and to see this happen makes my heart ache.

                  And the more I think about it, the more I wonder if Scott Allie means that what is "worth waiting for" is something worth waiting for for the anti-spuffies.
                  Last edited by Tennyoelf; 21-06-11, 02:32 AM.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ubi4soft View Post
                    With no magic maybe the apocalypses are gone also, Buffy may think she has a chance for a somehow normal longer life and take a chance to have a baby.
                    I can't imagine that apocalypses are gone. There are still demons around and so bad things can happen, still.

                    And in many ways Buffy's situation now is worse than it was at the beginning of the Season 8. At the beginning of Season 8 there was an army of slayers battling demons and vampires. Now, there will never be any new slayers called because magic has been cut off. So, now there's an ever diminishing number of Slayers and demons and vampires have very long (to virtually immortal) life spans. Slayers don't have lifespans like that.

                    It's kind of like the end of the last Trek movie where after they destroyed Vulcan that there are so few of them there aren't any to 'spare' as it were (except as older Spock pointed out, younger Spock lucks out because there are two of him). Buffy can never retire now. There is no 'next generation' . Heck many of the ones left are angry with her, and we see at least one going rogue. Buffy isn't expendable. Buffy can't quit. Buffy can't even take a sabbatical (as she arguably could've when there was an army of them). Buffy is now well and truly stuck with the Slaying gig until the end of her days.
                    Learning Experience: "...one of those things that says, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.”
                    ~Douglas Adams

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                    • #25
                      Tennyoelf, I'm the one who asked Scott the Spuffy question and I think he answered it honestly, though I have no idea what exactly he meant and I refuse to get my hopes up too high.

                      I don't need to have the "crazy studly" scene directly addressed; it's possible we'll find out Buffy was deeply hurt by Spike's neglecting to tell her he was alive and his silence made Buffy even more vulnerable when the Twilight reveal happened.

                      I'm really more interested in how Spuffy is treated in the future than having all the past dots connected for me. Would I love a panel where we see Buffy's face upon learning Spike was alive? Sure, but I'm okay with not having it further explored.

                      Bunny, Nick and Nora Charles are characters created by Dashiel Hammet in The Thin Man, a great mystery novel that was turned into a terrific classic movie. I bet you'd love both.

                      Another couple that reminds me of Spuffy is Rosie and Charlie from the African Queen, a movie I just love to pieces.
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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shipperx View Post
                        Spoiler:
                        I can't imagine that apocalypses are gone. There are still demons around and so bad things can happen, still.

                        And in many ways Buffy's situation now is worse than it was at the beginning of the Season 8. At the beginning of Season 8 there was an army of slayers battling demons and vampires. Now, there will never be any new slayers called because magic has been cut off. So, now there's an ever diminishing number of Slayers and demons and vampires have very long (to virtually immortal) life spans. Slayers don't have lifespans like that.

                        It's kind of like the end of the last Trek movie where after they destroyed Vulcan that there are so few of them there aren't any to 'spare' as it were (except as older Spock pointed out, younger Spock lucks out because there are two of him). Buffy can never retire now. There is no 'next generation' . Heck many of the ones left are angry with her, and we see at least one going rogue. Buffy isn't expendable. Buffy can't quit. Buffy can't even take a sabbatical (as she arguably could've when there was an army of them). Buffy is now well and truly stuck with the Slaying gig until the end of her days.
                        Maybe she'll end up immortal and doing the slayer gig forever? That would suck big time. But yeah, Buffy is a really bad spot right now. Honestly, in my opinion there should be no romance or babies of any kind for her for a while.

                        Originally posted by Reddygirl View Post
                        Spoiler:
                        Tennyoelf, I'm the one who asked Scott the Spuffy question and I think he answered it honestly, though I have no idea what exactly he meant and I refuse to get my hopes up too high.

                        I don't need to have the "crazy studly" scene directly addressed; it's possible we'll find out Buffy was deeply hurt by Spike's neglecting to tell her he was alive and his silence made Buffy even more vulnerable when the Twilight reveal happened.

                        I'm really more interested in how Spuffy is treated in the future than having all the past dots connected for me. Would I love a panel where we see Buffy's face upon learning Spike was alive? Sure, but I'm okay with not having it further explored.

                        Bunny, Nick and Nora Charles are characters created by Dashiel Hammet in The Thin Man, a great mystery novel that was turned into a terrific classic movie. I bet you'd love both.

                        Another couple that reminds me of Spuffy is Rosie and Charlie from the African Queen, a movie I just love to pieces.
                        I'm really not that picky, yeah I would like for it to get addressed but I'm fine as long as we get good spuffy stuff, though like you I don't have (or not anymore) my hopes up too high.

                        Oh, thank you for the movie recs, I always need good movie recs. I definitely will take the time to watch those.
                        Last edited by Tennyoelf; 21-06-11, 03:02 AM.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tennyoelf View Post
                          But still, how did it get there? How did Spike's memory not even register in those memory cubes? Why was Spike hardly mentioned? I really want to know why, since he had a huge impact on Buffy for almost the entire show (seasons 2-7).
                          Spike was mentioned just as much as Angel was before #33, but somehow that fact gets forgotten.

                          The memory cubes thing has been blown out of proportion. We know that it was left to Jeanty to choose what to draw, and that he did it with the help of friend of his. This is what he said:

                          9. Enisy: Is the presence or the absence of scenes/characters in Buffy's dreamscape in Issue #3 of The Long Way Home in any way significant (indicative of Buffy's current state of mind, or the events and people that generally shaped her life the most, or anything like that), or did you and Joss pick them pretty much randomly?

                          Georges: That was a weird Page to do at the time because I was still very young to the world of Buffy. I had seen the last 2 seasons and that was it. When Joss wrote out that page he said I want these cubes to represent Buffy's mind visually, so put moments in her life that would be relevant. I have a good friend by the name of Crystal who's a huge Buffy fan and she helped me with the more important moments in Buffy's life and from there I had a stack of the Buffy magazines so I went through all of them and just started to pick out images that I saw multiples of. Joss said he could give me descriptions for the cues but I really wanted to impress him so I told him I could handle it. When that page came out he sent me an e-mail and said he was looking at that page and he congratulated me on a job well done, and that he especially like that handsome young devil in the bottom cube. I was high the rest of the day. I did right by Joss. Yay!
                          27. moscowwatcher: You told once that Joss didn't give you specific notes on who should and who shouldn't be included in Buffy's dreamspace in issue #2. Did you know about Spike's role in the seasonal arc when you were selecting the images? If not, would you have included Spike in Buffy's memory cubes today, when you know his role?

                          Georges: That's weird. I don't know why I didn't include Spike in that cube montage. But, no. I didn't know then that Spike was going to be coming to the series
                          So, that's what the content of the cubes depended of: the opinion of Jeanty's friend, and the magazines he found.

                          And IMO it doesn't really matter what ended up in the cubes - you know why? Because those cubes we get to see in the panel are just some of the many cubes that are supposed to be in Buffy's mind. I don't understand why people are acting as if things we didn't see in the memory cubes in that particular panel don't exist in Buffy's memory. The panel just shows some random cubes, others are obstructed from view, and others we don't see it all. IIRC, Buffy's jump from the tower in The Gift is also missing. I wouldn't be surprised if those magazines were from early seasons.

                          Anyway, that same dream has other Spike references, and I don't mean just the threesome panel: after the big fakeout with the mystery man (is it Spike? is it Angel?... no, it's Ethan?!), you get Dream!Ethan talking Spike-ish - "pet", "lamb", and explaining that "my love" is "just an expression, like 'pet'" (which, of course, it isn't, but it would make sense to say that if he had said "love", another Spikeism).
                          Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 21-06-11, 03:19 AM.
                          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                          • #28
                            Joss had the final word on the pages, which means that Joss signed off on a page that was missing Spike.

                            Joss structured the whole story, which means that Joss signed off on a story which assumes that it makes no difference in our understanding of Buffy to know whether she knows Spike is dead or alive.

                            If you are into quoting Jeanty on this stuff, you have to include his report that Joss DID intervene to correct his drawing of the threesome so that Buffy was leaning into Angel more.

                            Notice that. Spike awol in the dreamcube space that has not one, but two mentions of Angel ==> no intervention. Spike and Angel being treated as equally important to Buffy ==> intervention to make it clear that Angel is the guy.

                            I'll give you that Buffy has picked up some of Spike's verbal tics. She's picked up some of Xander's as well. She has fond memories of Spike's sexual prowess. And she's willing to throw him into the general pile of tales of Buffy-love gone wrong, though again -- in a list that begins with Angel.

                            The story tellers have gone out of there way to hammer home that we can totally and seamlessly tell Buffy's story post-Chosen without any reference to Spike. I think that speaks for itself. They aren't writing a story about a woman who has big time feelings for the guy. By contrast, they are writing a story about a woman who still dreams of Angel as being all handsome-y.
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                            "I don't want to be this good-looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear." Banner Credit: Vampmogs

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                            • #29
                              Pet, love and lamb pet names could be just English slang though and might not be directly Spikeism (I gotta go back and reread that scene). Now, I admit that I have not read all of the comics, just things here and there, but from what I saw and read it seemed different, that some relationships were underplayed while others were hyped. Again, I'll have to go back to them, because I didn't spend too much time looking into it.

                              All in all though, I understood that the images that were drawn and the way some things were written were done by new writers and etc. so we had a new perspective of the show from different people. And everyone sees the show a bit different.

                              Like I said before, I'm not that overly picky, I just hope for something and that anything important from season 8 or 7 is addressed that needs to be addressed and anything irrelevant is discarded is fine. I suppose maybe I just want some things to be a little bit clearer and a little less vague. Again, not picky.

                              I just feel that the Spike/Buffy relationship has been shown to be irrelevant and I just want something to confirm that it isn't.
                              Last edited by Tennyoelf; 21-06-11, 04:22 AM.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tennyoelf View Post
                                Pet, love and lamb pet names could be just English slang though and might not be directly Spikeism (I gotta go back and reread that scene).
                                They are English slang, but Ethan has never used them before on screen and never talked to Buffy before that way. You really think that Dream Ethan constantly using those words was just accidental?

                                Originally posted by Maggie View Post
                                The story tellers have gone out of there way to hammer home that we can totally and seamlessly tell Buffy's story post-Chosen without any reference to Spike. I think that speaks for itself. They aren't writing a story about a woman who has big time feelings for the guy. By contrast, they are writing a story about a woman who still dreams of Angel as being all handsome-y.
                                Uh, she wasn't dreaming about Angel, she was dreaming about being back to her season 1 self (before she died the first time, before Angelus, when her mom was alive and everything was simpler and more innocent). How on Earth was she going to dream of Spike in that context?! She dreamed of Joyce and S1 Giles and Willow and Xander and Cordelia as well. Of course Angel was going to be in that dream, too. So she remembers how he was all handsomey and in the same breath that this was before she knew him as Angelus, and the other things she remembers about their relationship is that they were never good with the talking stuff, and that he turned into "baddiest bad" and made her "saddiest sad"... Hardly seems like she thinks of it as this wonderful relationship she'd like to renew.

                                And apart from the dream in which she goes back to being her season 1 self in which Angel logically had to appear, the only time Angel is ever mentioned or appears is: in a threesome with Spike, in Always Darkest in an equal role with Spike*, and being thrown 'into the general pile of tales of Buffy-love gone wrong'. I never, for starters, thought it was important if it 'starts with Angel' - well it has to start with something, and if she mentioned Spike burning up first, I really don't think anyone would be listing that as a proof she loves Spike bestest. Personally I assumed it was by severity of the predicament, because her speech was about the terrible things that had happened to people who loved her, not on things that happen to her, since she was warning off Satsu. Being in a hell dimension for a hundred years is by far the worst of the three things she listed, since Spike resurrected shortly after burning up, which we now know Buffy knew. (Although, she actually started it by saying that people she loves tend to die, which if you want to get technical didn't actually happen to Angel.) But hey, if you want to think it's because she loves Angel the bestest, OK, it's always possible to read things the way they support the position you've chosen.

                                I just think that, if your evidence that Buffy was totally in love with Angel all the way through season 8 and dreaming about getting back with him, unlike Spike who's not all that important to her, based on:

                                - Buffy calling Angel 'all handsomey' while seeing him in a dream where she's back to season 1,

                                - Buffy having a dream about him where he appears alongside Spike and their roles are equal,

                                - Buffy having a dream of having a threesome with Angel and Spike... where oh, she's leaning closer to Angel!

                                ...that's... well, kinda really lame. If Angel came up to me and told me "See, that's the evidence that I'm the one she really wants!" I'd tell him: "Yeah... right. It's important that you really think that. " and think to myself that Buffy obviously wants them both and hasn't made any kind of choice or shown actual preference.

                                Maybe it's just me, but when you're so totally in love with some guy as you think she was with Angel, can you at least have a dream/fantasy about him that's just about him and not constantly about him and another guy? If the story was about Buffy being in love with Angel all along while not that bothered about Spike, why couldn't they just show Buffy have one single dream or fantasy about Angel that's all about Angel?

                                It's not like it was a parade of all her former lovers. Buffy had feelings for Riley, too. Why didn't he appear in those dreams and fantasies as well?

                                *And that's something you still haven't been able to explain: if Spike's death was so unimportant and not at all traumatizing to Buffy, if she was just relieved to not have to talk to the guy, why does she have a dream about him blaming her for leaving him in the Hellmouth? And why is it shown as having the same level** of trauma and guilt for Buffy as Buffy having to kill Angel in Becoming II - which we know was one of the most traumatic experiences of her life? And why does she see him rejecting her, just as Angel did? If one of those guys is supposed to be a love of her life and her big trauma, while the other one is not really important... Then that dream really doesn't make sense?!

                                ** Oh, and Spike appears first, if you think the sequence of mention/appearance is that important.

                                - Not to mention that Willow says her "her truest loves" were vampires in a panel that shows Angel and Spike. She either based that on her observation of Buffy pre-Chosen (even though they never talked about Spike) or more likely on the observation or talk with Buffy post-Chosen. In any case, why didn't Willow just say that one vampire was her "truest love", if Angel is supposedly the one Buffy loved, while Spike was just that other guy she kinda had feelings for, but they weren't all that strong? It's not like Willow was ever shown to be particularly in favor of Buffy's relationship with Spike, or showing any kind of interest in it, in the show. Unlike the way she acted like a B/A cheerleader in early seasons.
                                Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 21-06-11, 12:19 PM.
                                You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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