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Buffy 9.25 "The Core, Part V" SPOILER Discussion Thread

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  • Originally posted by Emmie View Post
    No. Just no. At worst, the former makes people overly aware of instances of rape and other violations of a person's autonomy, the latter pours gasoline on the fire that is rape culture.
    Sorry, I just completely disagree. Rape is rape, Not!Rape is Not!Rape. There's no correct way to dilute and misuse the term.

    While I think it is important to say what one means as accurately as possible, literary analysis of fiction and interpreting certain aspects of stories as figurative depictions of rape is NOT as detrimental as the real-world socialization and dissemination of rape culture and the results of young men associating physical violence, dominance, and sexual assault with VICTORY.
    Y'know, I'm not above making the case that as often as "rape" is used as a metaphor in the contexts discussed, the examples Rug so capably denounces for instance, it's actually being used to obtain victory, rather than describe it -- because to equate something with rape is sort of like deeming something racist, it declares victory over the intellectual subject matter without the burden of having to make convincing argument (because to disagree with the person dropping the term is to defend rape, or to be racist, respectively).

    The phrase you use actually sort of gets right to the core of my point and, I believe, Rug's -- there is no such thing as a "figurative depiction of rape". I can't think of anything one could even attempt to throw that phrase at that wouldn't be more accurately called a "literal depiction of some sort of depravity that isn't rape". I can grok rape as metaphor, but it's long since crossed the line where people have lost the allusion and have started defining all sorts of not-even-remotely-actually-rape as subspecies of the thing itself. Such as... Buffy getting 'botted; Willow wiping Tara's memory, etc.
    Banner by LRae12


    • Can it wait a few hours till I bump the other thread? I realize my timing sucks here, but I just don't think this is the thread for it and there's another thread with (old) posts I'd like to reply to since we're on the topic anyhow.


      • The Dark Horse Solicitations of January 2014 are out.The solicitation ofr the final seaso n9 trade was also released.Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 9 Volume 5: The Core TP.Here's the solicictation.


        Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 9 Volume 5: The Core TP

        Andrew Chambliss (W), Jane Espenson (W), Georges Jeanty (P), Karl Moline (P), Dexter Vines (I), Karl Story (I), Andy Owens (I), Michelle Madsen (C), and Jo Chen (Cover)
        On sale Mar 5
        FC, 160 pages
        TP, 7” x 10”

        When Dawn falls ill, it’s up to best friends Buffy, Xander, and Willow to join forces and find a supernatural cure in a world sorely lacking magic. The trio must fight their way into the Deeper Well, the former home of Illyria and other ancient gods known as the Old Ones, where they hope to jump-start magic back into existence. Collects Buffy Season 9 #21–#25 and “Love vs. Life” from Dark Horse Presents #25–#27.

        • Executive produced by Joss Whedon!
        • Andrew Chambliss of television’s Once Upon a Time!


        • Why is Willow in black and white on this cover? She looks like a ghost. I have to wonder if this is a clue about Willow's path on Season 10.


          • One of the things about Buffy fandom that, when I stop and think about it, continues to amaze me is how much of it actually rejects one of the core values of the Buffyverse, namely, That Vengeance and Punishment are Not Good or Useful.

            Anya eventually, after 1100 years of punishing unfaithful men in two bouts of being a vengeance demon, realizes that vengeance does far more harm than any purported good it might do and finally, voluntarily gives it up....and is stung even more when one of her oldest friends is killed, body and soul, to punish her. Robin Wood enlists Giles' help in his quest to exact vengeance on Spike, the vampire who killed his mother, and the show pretty much says It is Not a Good Thing. Willow sets out to kill Warren for killing Tara, is apparently successful (until we learn otherwise), and not only is it depicted as a Dark Thing, everything after is depicted as her spiraling worse and worse until Xander reaches out to her on Kingman's Bluff at the end of Grave. Buffy seeking vengeance on Faith on Angel's turf, Wood's 200 year vendetta against Angel, Angel almost killing Wesley with a hospital pillow, and more, all depicted as, if understandably motivated, dark directions for our characters to take, and even harder to come back from.

            And yet so much of fandom refuses to acknowledge this, instead demanding that This or That Character Must be Punished (Usually with Death) name it. Removal of a Threat to the World, a belief in "protective vengeance," removing a threat or obstacle to their preferred 'ship, a fierce clinging to one's Dominance/Authoritarian fantasies, a demand for "catharsis" for the audience, and who knows how many other reasons.

            It's just mind-boggling to consider the disconnect between the values the Buffyverse actually values and what the audience demands, is all.


            • How I miss the Jo Chen cover. This one is so beautiful, she just nailed Xander. I've been disappointed with S9 but I will buy this arc just for the cover.
              Made by Trickyboxes
              Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag


              • Report of Georges Jeanty spotlight panel at the Vegas Valley Comic Book Festival.


                Georges Jeanty Talks "Serenity" and "Buffy" in Vegas

                Artist Georges Jeanty talked about his work on Dark Horse's "Buffy" and the upcoming "Serenity" miniseries at the Vegas Valley Comic Book Festival.

                Josh Bell, Contributing Writer

                "Everybody knows we're going to be singing, right?" artist Georges Jeanty joked at the beginning of his spotlight panel at the Vegas Valley Comic Book Festival. When moderator Katherine Keller of Sequential Tart asked Jeanty to introduce himself, the artist, sitting in a stool in front of a microphone instead of at the traditional comic-con cloth-covered table, gave a short summary of his comics career, marveling at his nearly two decades in the business. "The comic business is very much a freelancers' business, and being a freelancer, you never have that job security," he said. "The idea that I've been around for 20 years almost is a feat amongst itself."

                Jeanty detailed his history working on Marvel and DC superhero books, followed by six years of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." His next project is the six-issue "Serenity: Leaves on the Wind" miniseries for Dark Horse Comics, written by Zack Whedon, brother of "Buffy" and "Serenity" creator Joss Whedon.

                Keller asked Jeanty about his influences, and he named Alan Davis, John Byrne, Michael Golden, George Perez, Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli as some of his biggest inspirations. Asked how his style reflects those artists, however, he had trouble answering. "When I look at my work, I don't see any of that," he said, comparing an artist looking at his own work to people hearing recordings of their own voices. "That is the way I think artists view themselves."

                Going back to the beginning of his work on "Buffy," Jeanty said that at first he didn't believe Joss Whedon really wanted him as the artist for Season 8 of the comic book series. "If Joss Whedon sent you an email, what's the likelihood that you're going to believe it?" he quipped. Eventually, he was convinced that Whedon wanted him to draw "Buffy," but he needed a crash course in the show. "My crime, I guess, at the time, was I'd never seen an episode." Dark Horse sent him the sixth and seventh seasons of the show so he could catch up. "Those first four issues, I really didn't know enough about Buffy to really get it," he said, describing that initial arc as the movie Whedon would have made if he could have followed the series with a feature film.

                Asked about designing the characters' looks, specifically how he picks clothing for them to wear Jeanty said it was a big change from his earlier work. "I'm used to drawing superheroes, people in costumes," he said, explaining the transition he made to drawing everyday people. "I became very savvy about women's clothing" because the details were important to him. He asked Whedon where Buffy would shop, and Whedon suggested Anthropologie, so Jeanty started subscribing to their catalog to look for outfits for Buffy. He also talked fashion with editor Sierra Hahn, whom he described as very fashionable. At the same time, "I would never try to put Buffy into something she couldn't be maneuverable with," he said, noting that on the TV show, "whenever you saw Buffy in a skirt, you knew nothing was going to happen." For Willow, the look is all about earth tones, since "what she wears is germane to what she was doing." Although he's had freedom in designing the characters' outfits, Willow's recent hairstyle change required lots of consultation. "I had to do maybe 10 designs of Willow and her new cut in various forms," he said.

                All of that attention to detail meant that drawing "Buffy" took longer than Jeanty's other work. "A normal page for me would be a day," he said. "With 'Buffy,' it probably took me 20 percent longer to do." Drawing versions of characters played by real people also added to the time spent. "With those likenesses, I was always checking and re-checking."

                Moving back to "Serenity," Jeanty was asked if, like "Buffy," he'd been unfamiliar with the show before starting to work on the comic, but Jeanty said he'd watched every episode of "Firefly" when it originally aired. He's now working on the third issue of the series, and he had plenty of praise for writer Zack Whedon. "Zack has taken the reins and is doing amazing," he said. Though reluctant to offer too many plot details, he did reveal when the first issue opens with respect to the "Serenity" movie. "There's a very special little present that happens after nine months and comes into the world." Most of the crew members are the same, although Jayne has left the ship. "The only real difference is Inara. She has pretty much left her old life behind, because she has a new life."

                As for his favorite "Serenity" character, Jeanty first admitted that when the show was airing, "I remember actually sending a special email to Joss saying you have found my future wife," in reference to actress Morena Baccarin, who played Inara. "He was just ripping me like no tomorrow," Jeanty laughed. He said that his actual favorite character is Mal, whom he called "the Han Solo of the crowd."

                Unlike the cast of "Buffy," the characters in "Serenity" don't dress in modern fashions, but Jeanty still has plenty of sources to consult. "Nowadays, this whole steampunk thing is very popular, but if you notice, 'Firefly' is steampunk," he said, citing steampunk magazines and books as his go-to sources for the look of the series.

                As for whether or not Jeanty has any interest in working on creator-owned projects, the artist said it just isn't something he planned to pursue. "I don't know if I'm just old school, but I love playing in other people's sandboxes," he said. At the same time, "If I weren't into 'Firefly,' I wouldn't be doing the book. Thankfully, I'm at a point where I can do what I like."

                Asked how he goes about placing characters on the page from the way they're described in scripts, Jeanty told a fan, "I tend to approach the 'Buffy' stuff and the 'Serenity' stuff more as a director, and these are my actors. I'll lay out the whole book and just sort of look as I were looking through a camera."

                Asked by another fan if there were any "Buffy" characters he'd never had a chance to draw but would like to, Jeanty talked about meeting actress Emma Caulfield, who played Anya on the show. She asked him if she had appeared in the comic, and he had to tell her that she hadn't. "I got to pretty much draw everybody else," he said, although he was only able to draw Cordelia in one brief flashback. "I think Cordelia in the Buffyverse has gotten the rawest deal ever," he said


                • Originally posted by BAF View Post
                  Asked by another fan if there were any "Buffy" characters he'd never had a chance to draw but would like to, Jeanty talked about meeting actress Emma Caulfield, who played Anya on the show. She asked him if she had appeared in the comic, and he had to tell her that she hadn't. "I got to pretty much draw everybody else," he said, although he was only able to draw Cordelia in one brief flashback. "I think Cordelia in the Buffyverse has gotten the rawest deal ever," he said
                  I think the hardcore Cordelia fans would agree with Georges Jeanty on this.


                  • All caught up.

                    This is my response to posts #7 and after.

                    I’m not going to speculate on vampires in BtVS S10. I’ll wait to discuss that when BtVS S10 comes out.

                    I’m not going to discuss the vampire’s soul issue given this discussion related to speculation on the BtVS S10 vampires.

                    I posted some General Thoughts on BtVS S9 as a Whole here:, so I’ll try to not repeat stuff said there.

                    * This incessant diatribe against DorothyFan1 ’s consistent discussion of the future of Willow, the future of the Frayverse, and the future of magic is beyond tiring.

                    Willow was literally the most important character in post-BtVS S8. Her mission and the consequences of it is the most important aspect of post-BtVS S9. It’s the reason Dawn is alive. It’s the reason magic is back and is changed in the world.

                    The possibility of Vampire Xander was extensively discussed on this Board, something that never happened and wasn’t likely to happen. The possibility of making Giles appear to be 18-mid 20’s instead of 12 and how that could affect the relationships between Buffy, Faith, and Willow and him (meaning would they find him attractive and want to have sex with him) was discussed. Yet DorothyFan1 discusses things actually relevant to the Buffyverse – like how Willow can now do magic – and that poster gets harangued. Yes, that poster sometimes speculates, but I see that as no different than all the other speculation that happens on this Board and that sometimes ‘takes over’ threads.

                    * The Frayverse is still around 200 years in the future. Nothing yet ‘rules out’ the Frayverse coming to pass.

                    * Joss wanting Illyria in BtVS S9 instead of A&F could simply be because Joss saw zero logical way to have Illyria be in A&F without her dusting Angel. If the AtF stuff is canon, Illyria was going to kill Angel merely for striking Spike. Her knowing he was going to let the Earth and all its life be destroyed means if she saw him, she’d likely dust him. And there’d be zero Faith could do to stop her.

                    * Dracula’s ‘unique abilities’ came from Gypsy magic. With vampires now being able to fly, I assume Dracula and Morgan will be very useful. Perhaps Spike reconnects with the bugs and gets another spaceship.

                    * Buffy was ‘controlled by forces no one comprehends’. She’s not responsible for having sex with AngelTwilight.

                    * Simone wasn’t Buffy’s fault. Simone was Rona’s fault, Andrew’s fault, and Xander’s fault. Buffy didn’t even know about Simone until it was already ‘too late’.

                    * Buffy/Spike didn’t make sense in BtVS S9. If he would have stayed in town, they could have been a couple. After the mini, he clearly wanted to be with Buffy again. Yet in A&F, he’s trying to have sex with Faith or Giles’ Great Aunts and ends up having sex with Harmony for no good reason. I’d be happy if he got back with Drusilla and fine if he got with Morgan. And I want Spider and Co., Beck, and Betta George back and member of the ‘Spikettes’.

                    As for Buffy, if she’s not with Spike, they’d have to come up with a new compelling character for her to be with.

                    * Dracula gave up his powers in BtVS S8 in order to defeat those Japanese vampires. It’s possible with magic he’ll get them back. But that would obviously mean that Spike – if he wants them – would be able to have such powers as well. Frankly, the Gem of Amarra was clearly a magical object. So, it should seem possible with he right magics that Spike – and Dracula – could make themselves be daywalkers.

                    I have no problem with the idea of Dracula and Spike becoming daywalkers. For all we know, Spike actually kept a Seed shard or more and that could give him new and perhaps permanent powers.

                    * Buffy’s forgiveness of Xander: she still had problems with Giles and Faith in BtVS S8, so I’ll wait till BtVS S10 to discuss whether she actually forgave Xander.

                    * So what if Xander’s betrayal may have ultimately led to Dawn being brought back. Spike’s betrayal of the Scoobies ultimately led to Buffy being able to defeat Adam. Giles’ betrayal in “Lies My Parents Told Me” (7.17) ultimately resulted in Spike’s no longer being triggered. Angel’s role in the Acathla plan ultimately led to Spike’s eventually becoming a force for Good. The Buffybot became useful in the fight against Glory and the aftermath of that fight. Andrew being a member of the Trio became very useful in BtVS S7. Willow going Dark Willow ultimately led to her being very useful in BtVS S7 and BtVS S8.

                    * Buffy didn’t feel bad for Simone. Her reaction ultimately would have been something like her reaction to if she knew about Dana. Simone’s psyche and personality weren’t well suited to her being a Slayer.

                    * Joss Whedon says Willow is a lesbian; therefore, she’s a lesbian. She’s not bisexual.


                    Something I find funny for some reason is that Buffy is bleeding from the shoulder and yet Willow cuts her hand to get the blood they need for the spell.
                    Maybe the wound’s healed? That was probably dried blood on the shirt and Willow probably needed fresh blood.


                    when it comes to putting other peoples lives in danger through misguided actions, Xander probably ranks the least guilty of the group, along with Dawn of course.
                    “Revelations” (3.07), “The Zeppo” (3.13) (he could have told people what was happening), “Once More With Feeling” (6.07) (if he’s actually responsible), BtVS S9.

                    Aside from all the Potentials we see in BtVS S7, I’d say Giles is perhaps less. Of course Cordelia (AtS stuff could be because of Jasmine), Riley, Oz are less. If Xander is responsible for the “OMWF” spell, Faith is less. Unless one is counting Spike’s actions pre-chipped, he’d be less.

                    And, no, Dawn is clearly less guilty than Xander. She was even going to jump into the portal. She felt bad people were getting hurt because of her being the Key.


                    * Buffy’s not sorry she did the Empowerment Spell and she has no reason to be sorry.

                    * Xander betrayed Buffy and Willow and risked the world. It’d be okay – or more – for Dawn to dump Xander. I’ll discuss Xander/Dawn when BtVS S10 begins.

                    * The show isn’t called Xander . He was “indispensable” in “Prophecy Girl” (1.12), “Primeval” (4.21), and “Grave” (6.22). Willow’s been indispensable in “Primeval” (4.21), “The Gift” (5.22), and MAYBE “Chosen” (7.22). Spike was indispensable in “Becoming Part II” (2.22), “Primeval” (4.21), “Chosen” (7.22), and BtVS S8. Giles has been indispensable in “Primeval” (4.21) and “Grave” (6.22). Anya’s been indispensable in “Graduation Day Part II” (3.22) and “The Gift” (5.22).

                    I don’t count “The Zeppo” (3.13) for Xander given that could have been resolved had he actually spoken up to Giles or Buffy or any of the Scoobies.

                    Anyway, Xander’s a normal human guy and BtVS S8 dealt with godlike beings. How was he going to do anything there? BtVS S9 dealt with a guy powerful enough to drain godlike beings of their power. It has Willow coming back filled with enough magical power that there literally was a Seedling inside her. How was Xander going to do anything against that?

                    Finally, Xander’s lucky to even be alive. And there’s only so much a human guy can do in such a world.


                    Honestly, I don't think Spike's or Angel's story "needs" their souls. I mean, Angel's literally never, ever did.
                    If Angel were soulless, he would have been dusted in “Angel” (1.07). With Spike, for his journey he needed to get one. It shows he ultimately chose the side of Good over the side of Evil.


                    * There is no “Strong as She Needs To Be” regarding Buffy. Her strength and power is consistent with her emotions, emotional state, etc.

                    While we’ll actually see what the case is in BtVS S10; so far, it seems essentially the ‘explosion’ already going up the Deeper Well caused the Deeper Well tree to explode and therefore there was no actual ‘widening explosion’ that would have harmed Buffy. And Buffy was suddenly stronger than Simone because Buffy was pissed that Simone says the Scythe was Simone’s.

                    I guess I could explain it as Buffy was previously in a weaker state because of her emotional issues over Dawn fading away and then Buffy came back to ‘her determined self’ when Simone tells her the Scythe isn’t hers.


                    Let's see how Dark Horse tries to spin the criticism on not only the last issue but also all of Buffy as compared to how the Angel comic was critiqued.
                    This has never made sense to me. BtVS S9 significantly outsold A&F. It’s clear Spike originally wasn’t supposed to leave BtVS S9 and it seems BtVS S9 was originally going to further the Buffy/Spike relationship. Instead, he leaves for no good reason, gets his own mini, goes to A&F, and then comes back for Dawn.

                    With Christos Gage writing BtVS S10, we’ll see what the sales figures are.

                    Chambliss simply didn’t have much to work with given Willow left so early, then Spike left so early, and the Dawn stuff wasn’t addressed until the very end of the Season.

                    Gage got to show a lot of Giles’ backstory, got to explore two characters made for the Ripper spinoff, got to explore Drusilla and flashbacks of her, got to explore Faith’s relationship with Giles and get some flashbacks of that, etc. Plus, Willow showed up and later Spike showed up.


                    I assume even back before Season 8 was beginning Joss had his pick of any Artist, but, now Post-Avengers, I feel like the list of choices could literally be anyone he wants, ANYONE!
                    That’s not true. The artist would have to want to work in the Buffyverse, would have to be willing to do Buffyverse actor likenesses, would have to be approved by Sarah Michelle Gellar, would have to be willing to be out of the ‘superhero’ genre for a few years, etc.

                    * Georges Jeanty is able to do good artwork. See 8.40, some of his cover artwork, other stuff in BtVS S8 and a little of BtVS S9. It’s simply for some reason his quality went down in BtVS S9 and then we got Rebekah Isaacs on A&F, Paul Lee on the Spike miniseries, and even Willow miniseries.

                    When he tries, Jeanty is great at nuanced facial expressions, which is a must for BtVS. I think the ‘breakup’ scene of Buffy/Spike would have been better had Jeanty drawn it. The scene in BtVS 9.07 was more ‘emotional’ and impactful than the actual ‘breakup’.

                    Vampire in Rug

                    I think that if the Buffyverse is going to survive as a franchise, it needs to embrace the fact that it's a story being told in the comic book medium.
                    Joss started BtVS S8 at a time in which he acknowledged his career was on a downturn.

                    In the future, he could easily do a Buffyverse cartoon (SMG herself would probably voice Buffy). He could so something with Faith. He could do a Fray movie or TV show. That is if he wanted to devote some time to the Buffyverse. It seems he’s already being ‘pressured’ to do Avengers 3 and probably work on Phase 3.

                    I think the audience needs to be more willing to accept new characters and new ideas.
                    People liked much of BtVS S8 other than how Buffy/Spike was dealt with, what they did with Angel, and the Space Sex stuff.

                    If the Buffyverse comics aren't allowed to try new things or embrace comic book conventions, then they'll forever be the stagnant continuation of the TV show, rather than standing on their own as a story.
                    They’re a continuation of the Buffyverse and that continuation needs to make sense and be credible.

                    * Rape means “the forcing of somebody into sex” but it also means “violent destructive treatment” or “to violate something”. No one is saying Andrew had sex with Buffy’s unconscious body. He did rape her by the ‘other’ definition of the word. In addition, he clearly sexually assaulted and sexually battered her.

                    It is not important for us to know how exactly Buffy found out that Spike is alive.
                    For decent storytelling it is. In ways, you may as well say it wasn’t important to know about when Angel first saw Buffy, when Darla first saw Angel, when Angel first saw Drusilla, when Drusilla first saw Spike, when Spike first saw Buffy, when Oz first saw Willow, when and why Willow and Tara met, etc. Context is very important.

                    There was plenty of space in BtVS S8 and especially in BtVS 9 to detail when and how Buffy knew Spike was back.

                    * Buffy had it a lot worse in BtVS S8 and in BtVS S9 than Connor’s adoptive family did after BtVS 8.39.

                    Drusilla removing pain with the Lorophange demon wasn't actually helping people,
                    It’s fact she was as further evidenced by how they react after their memories come back.

                    she was ultimately doing it for free blood and attention.
                    She was ultimately doing it because she decided to help others.

                    It was a quick-fix, lobotomy. "Removing pain solves all" was not the message we were supposed to take from that story.
                    What we got from the story is the fact Angel needs his painful memories – essentially, the curse – in order to want to do good. We already knew that. It’s possible Drusilla wanted Angel to revert to Angelus so that Faith would dust him. And that Faith had wanted her painful memories to go away but she wasn’t actually ‘messed up’ enough – unlike Dru’s followers – that she needed those memories erased.

                    But really probably the most important part is a sane Drusilla isn’t as evil as an insane Dru.


                    Larry did not rape Buffy when he grabbed her ass, nor did the dude in the diner who slapped her ass.
                    Those were sexual assaults and Buffy easily could have pressed charges against them.

                    Even his team-up with Simone and Severin is pretty tame compared to some of the stuff that the other scoobies have done over the years.
                    “Pretty tame”? It’s on the level of risking the world for a selfish reason.


                    I only hope [Illyria dying] is addressed next season and a guilt-drenched Angel takes out some angsty, misplaced anger and blame on Buffy for putting her in that position. Consequences.
                    Angel should be grateful that Buffy didn’t let Xander dust him. And that she didn’t dust him herself.


                    Xander isn’t some ‘do nothing’—he is Buffy’s rock
                    Her “rock” was Joyce and Giles (and partly Willow and Angel) (BtVS S1-3), then was herself (BtVS S4-5), and then was Spike (BtVS S6-present time). Xander was only her ‘rock’ for that brief time in “The Freshman” (4.01).

                    I am tired of important meetings being done “off screen” with no pay off. Buffy having gone to LA “off screen” to Angel, with nothing having changed, made perfect sense in why she jumped Spike’s bones in despair in the very next “frame.”
                    This is not based on canon. It seems after “Bargaining” (6.02) that Buffy didn’t even once think about Angel until someone mentioned his name telling her he knew she was back and that he wanted to see her. Buffy/Spike was starting to happen before that meeting.

                    * Connor’s never met Buffy and possibly doesn’t even know about her.

                    * Drusilla’s ‘insane’ because of the psychological and physical trauma Angel inflicted on her before siring her.

                    * Buffy isn’t going to have sex with Giles.


                    I am horrid at summary, and not an arguer by bullet points with a single person, which is like “singling people out” and makes me cringe.
                    I don’t know. In ways it’d be neater and time saving if I did a ‘response to everything said in this thread other than my posts’, but that seems impersonal. Already, I’m trying to “quote” as little as possible in order to lessen the reading required to read my posts and to make it easier to respond to my posts.


                    Joss, at comic con, said that Buffy hadn’t healed from the abandonment of her father or that Angel turned into Angelus.
                    What year was this? I don’t recall him saying any such thing in recent years.

                    * Spike never raped Buffy.

                    We also see the notion of Spike’s unwillingness to be a half thing ((not to mention his metaphors of hunger and pestilence of the 4 horsemen that seem rather an immortal “constant” than a future world ending threat or merely an aftermath –beginnings and endings—of (Angel) war and death)).

                    The juvenile jokes remain in drug reference, the “roaches,” or their survival of even nuclear war, or the anal nature of the never seen “darkside of the moon” when the ending states the cave (womb) remains potential or destiny.
                    Um, no. Sorry, I prefer not to read the succeeding 6,744 words of your post. Your last post in this thread was ‘readable’. This one it seems, not so much.


                    * If Buffy found out about Connor, it would – or should – mean she’d know Angel had sex with Darla and Connor is Angel and Darla’s child. That would – or should – affect her relationship with Angel. As-is, after BtVS S8, Buffy/Angel should never happen again. Buffy shouldn’t even be friends with Angel ever again. But still.


                    * Andrew’s intention regarding the ‘Buffy-Buffybot’ scheme weren’t good. He wanted to feel important and he was using Buffy as if she were his tool to use.

                    I was okay with his not telling Angel and Spike that the real Buffy wasn’t dating the Immortal. There’s a logic that doing so may result in her losing some focus on her Slayer role and focus on her new Slayer Organization. But the Buffy-Buffybot scheme clearly shows his intentions probably weren’t actually for Buffy’s benefit or for the world’s benefit. He was acting as if Buffy was his tool to use in the fight against evil. Clearly, Buffy would have been safer knowing she was in danger. She would have been safer always being around Spike. She would have been safer in her own body. Andrew could have made robot decoys of Buffy. Instead, he decides to make a Buffybot and put the real Buffy’s ‘brain’ it in, essentially have Buffy’s body with a new personality and memories and have the body live out an upper middle class professional single person’s lifestyle.