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  • #61
    Originally posted by DorothyFan1 View Post
    I'm looking at the panel showing Xander saying Dawn's name. I'm getting a callback to the movie Sin City with Marv saying..."Goldie. She says her name is Goldie." The thing about that line in Sin City is that Marv gave up everything to avenge Goldie's death. It remains to be seen if Xander takes the same route as Marv in Frank Miller's Sin City to save Buffy.

    But that brings up the issue of logistics here. If you notice the next to last panel there's no way Xander can take a heroic last stand when he's literally too far away to help Buffy. Simone is way up there on the ledge with Buffy speared through the shoulder with her own Scythe. The only one who could possibly help Buffy now is Koh with his magical boomerang scimitar knives.
    FWIW, I also kind of thought of Mickey Roarke's reading of that bookend line, but when I thought of mentioning it, I realized... there really is nothing about the two storylines in common. Marv didn't ever have any actual relationship with Goldie anyway, she just let him have sex way out of his league in the hopes of getting him to protect her and was killed almost immediately. There's nothing comparable about that "relationship" with Xander and Dawn.

    EDIT: Mike, all Severin says at that moment was before Clare was turned, which would cover vampire or zompire alike. You might be overanalyzing his motives a little... well, a whole, whole lot actually. Illyria even perceives the truth of it -- he just wants her back, he'd take her human with the choice still available to her or a proper vampire or however he could get her. Remember, Simone was never serious or interested and apparently may have never believed Severin even could do the time travel thing, so any specific plan she may have used to sell Xander was irrelevant because it was a lie. Severin, for his part, has been pretty unstable for a good while so may or may not have much of a plan at all. He just wants to do a spin-the-earth-backwards-to-save-Lois type of plot, his interests were never in saving the world from Twilight, preserving magic or anything. He probably wouldn't care if the world was ending around him if it just meant Clare back.
    Last edited by KingofCretins; 17-08-13, 03:12 AM.
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    • #62
      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      FWIW, I also kind of thought of Mickey Roarke's reading of that bookend line, but when I thought of mentioning it, I realized... there really is nothing about the two storylines in common. Marv didn't ever have any actual relationship with Goldie anyway, she just let him have sex way out of his league in the hopes of getting him to protect her and was killed almost immediately. There's nothing comparable about that "relationship" with Xander and Dawn.
      These are good points and it's kind of interesting you also thought of that line from Sin City. But there's something else to the line that makes it possibly more relevant to the Buffy storyline...the matter of self worth. Marv tells Lucille, (his parole officer) that he's been asking himself about waking up every morning and wondering why he's still there. It's a stark case of existentialism. Goldie represented to Marv that spark of recognition of his worth and saw him for who he was a good soul slouching with the losers in the nightclub drinking their doubts away. Her death triggered his rage of impotence at not getting the recognition for his value as a human being and therefore no longer wanted to play by society's rules.

      Buffy speared on that Scythe *does* bring up the image of Renee from last season. Only in that case Xander had an actual budding relationship going with Renee. Here, Buffy is not in *that* category...but Xander was rightly angry with Buffy for daring to tell him she *did* want him during Season 8...but as he accurately pointed out...he was just "on her list". Dawn didn't see Xander as a checklist possibility for a single one night stand but as a long term relationship material. So the line by Marv in Sin City is asking the existential question about memories and self worth and that's why Xander's mentioning Dawn's name that way brought up the connection to Sin City in my opinion.

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      • #63
        Buffy the Vampire Slayer--The Core, Part IV

        Too little, too late.

        Just not feeling it. I think it was entertaining but not very involving. I wanna see how they save Dawn, but I guess I’m not that invested in Dawn anymore because it’s more curiosity than anything.

        I guess what it comes down to is I’ve outgrown the core. Maybe I should have read the Willow spinoffs because I don’t really care how she’s gonna gain her power. I’m thinking that this whole season is just gonna end really tra-la-la. Magic’s back! Dawn’s back! Xander says, “Jeepers guys….I guess I was wrong to go against you like that.”

        Buffy says, “Darn skippy. Xander, we’re your friends! You know you can always count on us!”

        Willow says, “You’re still my bestest buddy!”

        Xander says, “Gosh, you guys are swell! Hey, let’s get some ice cream!”

        Everyone, “YAY!”

        I am feeling NO sense at all of long-term ramifications for the Scoobs. I think Illyria might die, but that’s more with Angel and not Buffy. Which, to be honest, is even more insulting to have her die or whatever in the series where her presence isn’t really that integral to the main group. I did appreciate it that Illyria is able to empathize and communicate with Severin and the flashback to Wesley was effective. But it just didn’t seem organic enough. It seemed to come out of nowhere or one of the writers said, “Hey! This is like Wesley and Fred! Cool!” And they just kind of plugged it in.

        Xander had one of the most transparent “Oh, well, all righty then”s the Buffy mythology has ever had. Right away he’s embraced back in the bosom. No consequences. No quiet, unseen heroism. I’m gonna be Roland Deschain here. He needs to die. Seriously. If his transgression and betrayal is gonna have any weight to justify his redemption then it needs to be a sacrifice. Dawn needs to die or transmogrify or lose her memory. He needs to know the cost of his actions. It has to mean something, dammit!

        And don’t even get me started on Spike. One panel. One frickin’ panel. And all he does is in it is pull off face palm despair. No fighting. No heroism. I have never seen him so impotent and useless as I did in this issue.

        I really think Simone has to be one of the most narcissistic and bullheaded villains in the Buffyverse. She has no motivation besides kill Buffy Summers. I get it. She was perfectly happy being a psychopathic nihilist when she all of the sudden got hit with a bunch of cosmic duty. But Faith made for a more fascinating and sympathetic villain and became one of the Buffyverse’s most beloved characters period. In her evil days she would have been all over exploiting the powers of the Deeper Well to the fullest seeing it for the potential it really had. Simone is what separates villains like The Joker or Lex Luthor from Mr. Zazz or Doomsday. They’re so frickin’ narrow! You can exploit the Well and go back in time! I appreciate that Simone doesn’t have the power Severin does, but it’s like she completely forgoes this plan for something else that is just so….superficial and petty. Joker would make some kind of grand, insane scheme that would bring Gotham to its knees. Luthor would exploit the U.S. Government to create a nation where the military hunts meta humans and JLA card carriers. Zazz? Kill Batman! Doomsday? Kill Superman Grrrrrr!

        These are at best third-tier villains. Simone had real potential to be the Buffyverse version of Magneto. Here she’s not worthy to carry Magneto’s helmet. Wasted opportunity.

        And please don’t give me this thing about keeping it grounded or whatever. Season Seven had Buffy physically go to some alternate time/dimension to the origin of the Slayers. I think if you have that all bets are off. The only thing that rubbed me and ninety percent of the Buffy fan base was the Spacefrak. After that, I felt the consequences were compelling enough plus the return of Spikebad the Space Sailor to keep me reading.

        This time? I can’t leave this mess soon enough. I got the internet. I’ll stick to buying the must-read, special issues and just read the summaries and issue threads on everything else. Going by this I got plenty of time to save up.

        Tallgent

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Tallgent View Post
          Buffy the Vampire Slayer--The Core, Part IV

          I am feeling NO sense at all of long-term ramifications for the Scoobs. I think Illyria might die, but that’s more with Angel and not Buffy. Which, to be honest, is even more insulting to have her die or whatever in the series where her presence isn’t really that integral to the main group. I did appreciate it that Illyria is able to empathize and communicate with Severin and the flashback to Wesley was effective. But it just didn’t seem organic enough. It seemed to come out of nowhere or one of the writers said, “Hey! This is like Wesley and Fred! Cool!” And they just kind of plugged it in.

          Xander had one of the most transparent “Oh, well, all righty then”s the Buffy mythology has ever had. Right away he’s embraced back in the bosom. No consequences. No quiet, unseen heroism. I’m gonna be Roland Deschain here. He needs to die. Seriously. If his transgression and betrayal is gonna have any weight to justify his redemption then it needs to be a sacrifice. Dawn needs to die or transmogrify or lose her memory. He needs to know the cost of his actions. It has to mean something, dammit!

          Tallgent
          I stilll think some form of a Xanpire is a possibility to be Buffy and Willow's problem at the last panel of the season. I agree the execution of everyone learning about the betrayal was sloppy, but the set-up for it was one of the few things the Buffy title has done well.

          I doubt Dawn will die because it's too obvious and sort of like a repeat of S8, Buffy tries her damnedest to save the world and does-but loses someone close to her. Plus I think her dumping Xander if they both come out of this is a real possibility as well.

          I also hope they use her Keyness for something after S9 is over. they are heavily plotting things about the supply of magic, and efforts to bring magic back. But beyond W & H's "tech portal" and Morgan's scheme in the Spike mini-they haven't really said anything about the state of the portals, so ideally they'd give Dawn a myth arc about them. A Willow/Dawn storyline hasn't really been done ever, and Dawn as an adult and Willlow's new place and the world could make it feel like a fresh plot.

          I refuse to believe Illyria will die, as that would infuriate me that it's in the wrong title and I've already said how poorly they've written her this season (although I did like the speech in this issue even with the problems I have in believing Illyria being so empathetic). I'm thinking either Fred "wakes up" inside Illyria because of all the Seedling/Siphon business or Fred and Illyria somehow split into separate bodies.

          Agree on Simone, Severin and Spike.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Tallgent View Post
            Buffy the Vampire Slayer--The Core, Part IV

            Too little, too late.

            Just not feeling it. I think it was entertaining but not very involving. I wanna see how they save Dawn, but I guess I’m not that invested in Dawn anymore because it’s more curiosity than anything.

            I guess what it comes down to is I’ve outgrown the core. Maybe I should have read the Willow spinoffs because I don’t really care how she’s gonna gain her power. I’m thinking that this whole season is just gonna end really tra-la-la. Magic’s back! Dawn’s back! Xander says, “Jeepers guys….I guess I was wrong to go against you like that.”

            Buffy says, “Darn skippy. Xander, we’re your friends! You know you can always count on us!”

            Willow says, “You’re still my bestest buddy!”

            Xander says, “Gosh, you guys are swell! Hey, let’s get some ice cream!”

            Everyone, “YAY!”

            I am feeling NO sense at all of long-term ramifications for the Scoobs. I think Illyria might die, but that’s more with Angel and not Buffy. Which, to be honest, is even more insulting to have her die or whatever in the series where her presence isn’t really that integral to the main group. I did appreciate it that Illyria is able to empathize and communicate with Severin and the flashback to Wesley was effective. But it just didn’t seem organic enough. It seemed to come out of nowhere or one of the writers said, “Hey! This is like Wesley and Fred! Cool!” And they just kind of plugged it in.

            Xander had one of the most transparent “Oh, well, all righty then”s the Buffy mythology has ever had. Right away he’s embraced back in the bosom. No consequences. No quiet, unseen heroism. I’m gonna be Roland Deschain here. He needs to die. Seriously. If his transgression and betrayal is gonna have any weight to justify his redemption then it needs to be a sacrifice. Dawn needs to die or transmogrify or lose her memory. He needs to know the cost of his actions. It has to mean something, dammit!
            They are still in the middle of a battle, it's hardly the time to go throwing around recriminations. I wouldn't assume all is well and good with the trio yet. I'm not really sure Xander did anything all that wrong anyhow. I mean, compared to trying to destroy the world and attempting to murder your friends, this seems to rate pretty low on the old betrayal meter.


            Originally posted by Tallgent View Post
            And don’t even get me started on Spike. One panel. One frickin’ panel. And all he does is in it is pull off face palm despair. No fighting. No heroism. I have never seen him so impotent and useless as I did in this issue.
            Spike had arguably two seasons in a row where he played a major part in the conclusion and you're upset because for once he's on the sidelines? I'm gonna be nice about this; there are characters who have and have had it much worse. This is the guy they created a miniseries for just because they didn't want him sitting around doing nothing. I'm sure Spike will just be fine going froward.

            Originally posted by Tallgent View Post
            These are at best third-tier villains. Simone had real potential to be the Buffyverse version of Magneto. Here she’s not worthy to carry Magneto’s helmet. Wasted opportunity.
            I can't really argue with you there.


            Originally posted by Tallgent View Post
            This time? I can’t leave this mess soon enough. I got the internet. I’ll stick to buying the must-read, special issues and just read the summaries and issue threads on everything else. Going by this I got plenty of time to save up.

            Tallgent
            They've still got one issue to pull it all together... Miracles do happen.
            Last edited by PointMan; 17-08-13, 08:43 PM.
            “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” -- Albert Einstein

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            • #66
              Just a few points.

              1. Simone surely makes an ugly vamp.
              2. Xander remembering Dawn's name kindda brought me back a little faith in this story.
              3. Willow's new magic producing the new seed... Not entirely unespected.
              4. Is Dawn invisible now? How scary is that?!!
              5. Really don't want Illyria to die.
              6. Don't care about what happens to Severin... So he probably will die giving his (partly ill-gotten) power to the new seed. IMHO, it works (dramatically), so mote it be.

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              • #67
                I think it's fairly well known I have largely preferred A & F over the Buffy book this season. I just realized you can track why even from to the first image and the last image of each Issue #1 of the season.

                Which sounds more interesting?

                A & F: We open with a flashback of the dear and recently departed Rupert Giles fighting a demon and making a personal sacrifice to save a little girl. Cut to Angel & Faith fighting the same demon.

                We end of the surprise that Angel intends to bring Giles back to life in a world that is supposed to have no magic, and from a natural death which even before no magic was one of the key unbreakable rules of this world.

                Buffy: We open with our hero red-eyed and coming out of what we think is a really bad hangover, she was so out it she thinks she had sex but is not sure with whom.

                We end on Buffy shrugging off Willow's warnings of the damage Buffy's done and Spike vaguely saying some unknown baddies are coming after Buffy,... maybe...somehow, sometime. Then a student loan joke.

                A & F has had direction and an engaging arc from the start. Buffy is trying to racket up the tension in the last few issues, but it's not excusing the fact that over half of the season seemed to drag while A & F was making progress towards something important from the get-go.
                Last edited by DanSlayer; 18-08-13, 12:59 AM.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Tallgent View Post
                  And don’t even get me started on Spike. One panel. One frickin’ panel. And all he does is in it is pull off face palm despair. No fighting. No heroism. I have never seen him so impotent and useless as I did in this issue.
                  Spike is emotionally involved with Dawn and chose to sit with her, to support her and try to keep her connected to her memories. He has helped to give her the opportunity to sustain a connection to Xander, for both of them, with Xander away fighting on the front line. Spike is supporting her in understanding the importance of her relationship to her even as she forgets about it, even though it is external to him and his connection to her. He is showing that her feelings and life are important to him in the context of her happiness, rather than what he personally gets/feels from knowing her. So I don't agree. Spike is there at the moment that she physically disappears (there is no month gap for him between this and what was happening last issue) and if at that very moment he is overwhelmed by feeling a level of despair... then fair play to him. I am pleased that we are seeing the side of Spike that has always pulled him to me in that he can be action based, sure, he can be a champion, but he can never separate his heart from his intentions. It doesn't mean being 'love's bitch', it means caring enough that he a) respects that others who are capable and heroic are doing what they can on the battle front and b) that those left behind who are loved should feel what the others are fighting for and not feel left behind. Spike has faults and is flawed but his selflessness/humanity and vulnerability are all in that head hold, and I can't knock him for taking that moment.

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                  • #69
                    While I appreciate the Spike/Dawn connection and am glad that it was not ignored, I am also sad that Spike/Illyria haven't interacted. Spike is the only character in the Buffy comic with any history with Illyria, he is the only one who could have an emotional reaction to her return to Fred's appearance. It seems like it could have helped what has largely been an emotionally hollow use of Illyria's visit to BtVS.
                    Learning Experience: "...one of those things that says, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.”
                    ~Douglas Adams

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                    • #70
                      That may of course come in S10 if she survives.

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                      • #71
                        Something that I want in S10 is meaningful sub-plots between characters without Buffy for a while. The show could spend over half an episode on two other characters besides her. True, everything has to come back to Buffy, but when was the last time Xander and Willow had some meaningful interaction without Buffy in the way? Spike & Illyria could use this as well. Hell, if they want to keep Billy and Dowling, integrate them with the rest of the Scoobies with a few sub-plots. That could make their Scooby status feel earned and not inserted.

                        Yes, Spike and Willow had mini-plots without her but they were also basically on their own with OCs. The really good stories are best when using characters from the show.

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                        • #72
                          All caught up

                          Here’s my bullet points and analysis: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...6&postcount=23 I’m going to try not to repeat stuff. (I realize that Simone may be a vampire and not a zompire.)

                          This is my response to post #9 and after.

                          I’m going to try to refrain from speculating about the Frayverse until perhaps after reading 9.25.




                          * Xander surviving that fall. It’s possible to survive such a fall, which seemed to be over 100 feet but Koh softened the landing. However, it seems unlikely that Xander wouldn’t have fractures or broken bones (including ribs), internal bleeding, and perhaps organ damage. http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensa...tell-the-tale/


                          * The Embodiment of Magic (EoM) used a pink speech bubble and so it seems the ‘Seedling’ – which uses a yellow speech bubble – is what was talking to Willow.


                          * If the Seed works, Willow can perhaps go back to the Embodiment of Magic and get more magic.




                          Vampire in Rug

                          Kinda ironic that in the A&F book, Whistler is going to all these horrible lengths to bring back magic... I think he'd be overjoyed if he learned what Willow has already accomplished, but obviously he's got no way of finding out.
                          Also, perhaps the timeline is an issue. It seems the news would be reporting on what is happening in London, but it doesn’t seem Buffy and Co. are aware of what is happening in London.



                          KingofCretins

                          * My only problem with the Illyria-Severin stuff is she not asking for her powers back. Although, I can understand if she decided to prioritize giving as much power to the Seedling as possible and that includes her power.


                          * Willow had enough magic in her to create a Seedling. I say ‘god Willow’ because her power was coming from herself. She didn’t have to pray to gods and goddesses to do spells. It didn’t seem she was less powerful than she was in BtVS S8.

                          I don't really know why curiousity over how she can physically move the Seed; she made it after all, makes an intuitive sense that she might have some dominion over it.
                          Because it left her body against her wishes and it seems to have sentience. Maybe it decided it wanted to be ‘jump started’.


                          * Obviously for ‘production reasons’, Simone wasn’t going to kill Buffy. But in-verse, it doesn’t make sense. The only thing I can think of is maybe she wants to have Buffy witness the killing of her friends and/or wants to see Buffy forget who she was trying to save.

                          It isn't hard at all to understand why Xander remembers Dawn most, though -- he is in love with her. That typically trumps even sibling love; I think only parent/child can stay in the discussion with deeply felt romantic love.
                          I didn’t say it was unrealistic. I was asking the question. Buffy hasn’t really been close to Dawn since BtVS S5. Also, it can be argued that Xander simply had a burst of remembrance because he considered he was about to die and Simone had jeered that he probably doesn’t even remember who he’s trying to save.

                          ________________________________________________

                          from Xander's POV, Dawn sort of is the perfect woman -- she combines really strong traits of every woman we've known Xander to be really into before. My first thought was to say she's got a lot of the best of both Buffy and Willow, but then I remembered her occasional bursts of dry wit (so Anya). She looks more like Cordelia than any of them. And she even electrocuted him that one time and can capture the eye from across the Bronze (Faith!)
                          That’s interesting. Buffy – bravery, strategic planning. Willow – book worm, likes school (although it doesn’t seem Dawn stayed in college). There’s nothing of Anya in Dawn. Cordelia – I assume you’re referring to Dawn’s hair color, height, and breast size (Dawn actually looks more like Drusilla than she looks like Cordelia). There’s nothing of Faith in Dawn – that was a spell.

                          ________________________________________________

                          I don't see why we shouldn't make default assumptions about Xander and Dawn dating excusively and cohabitating for all this time than if they were newlyweds.
                          They aren’t newlyweds. They’re not even engaged.

                          ________________________________________________

                          Mike, all Severin says at that moment was before Clare was turned, which would cover vampire or zompire alike.
                          That’s the point. The only way to actually stop Twilight would be to stop Angel. If Severin were planning to go back to a time when AngelTwilight’s plans were already set in motion, going back in time wouldn’t accomplish much because AngelTwilight and SuperBuffy would still go to Twilight and the Seed would still have to be broken. So, the only upside to Xander’s allying himself with Severin would be Severin’s girlfriend wouldn’t become a zompire.



                          Reddygirl

                          I just finished rewatching all seven seasons of BtVS […] and was struck by Dawn's attitude toward Xander in the last part of 7. I do believe she had started falling in love with him during this time period, that her feelings were growing toward something more than friendship or sisterly love.
                          She had a crush on him in “Real Me” (5.02) but sometime before “Crush” (5.14) she had a crush on Spike. It doesn’t seem she was starting to fall in love with him in the last part of BtVS S7. She did nothing to pursue him until late in BtVS S8, which was years later. She appreciates his “Potential” (7.12) speech to her, but that’s about it.



                          PointMan

                          Spike had arguably two seasons in a row where he played a major part in the conclusion and you're upset because for once he's on the sidelines?
                          The problem is he stopped trying to help stop a potentially world-ending (at least for humans) apocalypse to ‘hold Dawn’s hand while she’s dying’. Xander’s had 6 “seasons in a row where he played a major part in the conclusion”. It would have made more sense for Spike to fight with Buffy and Willow and have Xander staying with Dawn. And, of course, if they’re canon, Spike should have had Beck, and Spider and Co. (the Spikettes) helping in A&F and in BtVS S9.

                          This is the guy they created a miniseries for just because they didn't want him sitting around doing nothing.
                          Or so that he wouldn’t be with Buffy. His leaving made little sense given Simone was still a threat.



                          DanSlayer

                          * A&F would have been great if in BtVS 8.40 or A&F 9.01 it was shown that Angel had been ‘controlled’ or at least ‘influenced’ by Twilight before he decided to be AngelTwilight. Instead A&F simply makes Angel even more deplorable.

                          BtVS S9 simply suffered a lot from Spike leaving. It would have been better had Buffy and Spike continued to try to work on their relationship. Illyria showing up would have been more impactful with Spike there if the IDW was actually canon. Spike’s not averse to guns and is not averse to killing humans who need to be killed. So, the Severin problem would have been dealt with.

                          Also, the Dawn thing still doesn’t make sense because we’re given no reason why Dawn’s only first being affected by the Seedless world around perhaps a year or so after it was broken.

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