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  • Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    If she was indifferent towards the Scoobies the leadership spill wouldn't have devastated her like it did. Not to mention that it's debatable how much she actually meant it and how much of it was just said in the heat of the moment, given how genuinely surprised she is when Willow *does not* stick up for her in the big fight.
    IMO, Buffy did mean "Spike is the only one who has my back". Buffy said it in a conversation with Giles. It wasn’t heat of the moment. Gilles repeated again that they've all been watching her back and Buffy affirms again that doesn't feel that way. And then Buffy dug her heels in that position even more by deciding that Giles sent Spike away so that Giles could ambush her. Buffy said the same thing three times- she was pretty damn committed to it.

    I think Buffy’s “Spike is the only one who has my back” and her surprise that Willow doesn’t defend Buffy’s plan to Kennedy are consistent. Just because Buffy thinks that Willow and Co. should have confidence in her plan based on her past successes and is shocked that they don’t feel that way doesn’t mean that Buffy doesn’t think that Spike’s loyalty, support, admiration, utility, what have you rises Spike above the rest of the mob to make him Buffy’s True Trusted Ally.

    Most commanders feel that they are owed loyalty by the mob of grunts but they have a small inner circle whose hyper-loyalty or efficacy rises them to a higher level of back-having. If the Scooby gang were in tip-top shape, Buffy would think that her long-time Scoobies have her back and the Potentials are on a lower level where Buffy just expects loyalty and obedience. However, Buffy chose to cut all of the Scoobies out of the “have my back” inner circle and just extend that status to Spike. I think that's what folks find so troubling.

    Originally posted by Koos View Post
    Well, after your comment I have rewatched this scene in First Date again. Very carefully. And IMO it is as bad as it has been told in fanon. It is canon. Though, Xander wouldn´t know about it. This moment in combination with calling Spike the only one she could trust her back is saying enough that she didn't give a damn about Xander anymore. None at all.
    Ironically, Buffy is the tenderest and warmest to Xander of all of the Scoobies, save Spike in S7. I think Buffy’s S7 ranking of caring and love is Spike by a gazillion miles, Xander by another gazillion miles, Dawn and then everyone else is pretty negligible. (Buffy shows tremendous esteem for Giles’s judgment in Chosen- but it’s tainted by all of the bad blood between them.)

    I don’t like Buffy’s conduct to Xander in First Date and Empty Places. However, the problem wasn’t “Buffy not giving a damn about Xander”. In Empty Places, it’s that Buffy wasn’t doing the hard work of swallowing her own pain and guilt over what happened to Xander to think about what he needs and deserves which is comfort and recognition for his sacrifice and company in the hospital. In First Date, it’s that Spike looms the largest in Buffy’s focus. (I don’t care that Spike was next to Buffy. It’s traditional…among people </Giles voice> to rush to the worst wounded person who is bleeding out the wazzoo and whose need for a bandage or tourniquet may be totally urgent.

    Comment


    • Look, I’m the first person to say that the “only one watching my back” line is bad. I already said I consider it a form of betrayal to her friends. But it was not said because Buffy doesn’t “give a damn” about her friends. She said it to the guy who HAD deceived her and went behind her back.
      Exactly what in Buffy's behaviour in those episodes makes you think she didn't mean it, that it was just a way to try to hurt Giles? And really, lumping Willow and Xander together with Giles, never mind they had nothing to do with his "betrayal", is almost as awful as believing that only Spike had her back.

      and to suggest otherwise is just hyperbolic character-bashing. I mean, what, you think she was about to break down over that picture because she didn't like how her hair looked that day? That she was staring at it and stroking Xander's face... just because?
      Maybe she thought it was a mirror, not a photo and was concerned about her hair, indeed. I wouldn't put that past S7 Buffy.

      If she was indifferent towards the Scoobies the leadership spill wouldn't have devastated her like it did.
      Many a dictator have been stunned when their minions turned against them, doesn't necessarily mean they cared much about said minions in the first place. Just that they believed that people still had faith in their leadership qualities while this wasn't really the case. Not that I think Buffy didn't care about Willow and Xander at all, mind you, but to me this looked more of a "Somebody thinks someone can be a better leader than ME?!? How can this be?" than "Those people that I value so much think I am no good?!?".
      Last edited by Jack Shaftoe; 04-05-13, 04:21 PM.
      Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Koos
        He can talk easy, all her attention went out to him.
        Ignoring the rampant seething Spike hatred. This is (in less hyperbolic terms) the point.

        Buffy had repeatedly gone out on a limb for him. She's earned his staying out on a limb for her. He's not an impartial observer. No in 'verse character is. Of course, he is going to take her side. Given the substantial slack she had cut him, he should. And that in no way means that other characters were not justified in having issues with her. They have their reasons and experiences too!

        Sheesh. Look at things from various characters POVs. It is actually possible to understand why characters feel different ways about the same thing. And why one character may have reason for their stance and another have reasons for their opposition and BOTH have reasonable motivation for it. It's called perspective! EVERYONE has one, and if we pause just long enough to try to understand where someone else is coming from, we might have some clue about them and some compassion for both sides rather than frothing contempt for one that doesn't perfectly align with our own.

        Personally, I think trying to understand what motivates a character is far more interesting than trying to justify them.
        Last edited by shipperx; 05-05-13, 12:53 AM.
        Learning Experience: "...one of those things that says, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.”
        ~Douglas Adams

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        • All this is great in theory but you seem to be ignoring the anvils that left no doubt that were supposed to think that Buffy and Spike were right, right, right and everyone else was wrong, wrong, wrong. This isn't one of those arguments where the viewers are supposed to see both sides as partially right.
          Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Koos View Post
            He can talk easy, all her attention went out to him. His stalking needs were satisfied. But when that isn't the case we know that he WILL try to rape her. I have never seen someone being so hypocritical. And I truely do not understand that Xander didn´t try to stake him for it, like he did with Angel in S8.
            I can't believe I missed this comment the first time round. Saying that Spike tried to rape Buffy because he wasn't getting enough attention and then stating as a fact that souled Spike would just do it again if he felt ignored... well, this probably rates amongst some of the most offensive character bashing that I have been unfortunate enough to read on this board. I'm not even getting into Xander being seen as an acceptable judge, jury and executioner.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shipperx View Post
              Ignoring the rampant Spike hatred, this is (in less hyperbolic terms) the point.

              Buffy had repeatedly gone out on a limb for him. She's earned his staying out on a limb for her. He's not an impartial observer. No in 'verse character is. Of course, he is going to take her side. Given the substantial slack she had cut him, he should. And that in no way means that other characters were not justified in having issues with her. They have their reasons and experiences too!

              Sheesh. Look at things from various characters POVs. It is actually possible to understand why characters feel different ways about the same thing. And why one character may have reason for their stance and another have reasons for their opposition and BOTH have reasonable motivation for it. It's called perspective! EVERYONE has one, and if we pause just long enough to try to understand where someone else is coming from, we might have some clue about them and some compassion for both sides rather than seething contempt for the one that doesn't perfectly align with our own.

              Personally, I think trying to understand what motivates a character is far more interesting than trying to justify them.
              Spike definitely felt a debt of gratitude to Buffy and high esteem for her. However much like I have problem with the Scoobies running after Buffy and impressing on her to stay in her house, I also have a problem with Spike calling the gang a bunch of sad, pathetic, ungrateful traitors and doing violence on Faith without hearing their side of the story first.

              Because you find it interesting to discuss what motivates characters, I think Spike was motivated by the following. He loves Buffy and feels that he owes her. Meanwhile, he doesn’t like the Scoobies for a variety of reasons that range from past violence to finding them hopelessly uncool and tacky. (Also, I forget where I heard this but I liked the meta: Buffy signaled to Spike that she kind of hated and deeply resented the Scoobies after the resurrection but Buffy wasn't going to be voluble about it because the Scoobies are her ties to humanity and normalcy and all that good stuff. Spike, in the mode of As You Were, carried the hate for Buffy.)

              Spike observes that Buffy is ousted from her position and her home while the rest of the gang gets to be a functioning army still sitting warm and well-fed in headquarters. Buffy looks, facially, like the ultra-wronged party.

              Spike puts a heavy emphasis on superpowered strength as where efficacy and importance is really at and thus, values his and Buffy’s contributions above everyone’s else’s. (Including Faith who’s been pretty absent until recently. Or Willow whose superpowers are too abstract, unpredictable, inherently dangerous, and cerebral to be steadily counted on and respected from Spike but who have yielded enough impressiveness for Spike to totally downgrade her value in S9).

              Spike actually hasn’t appreciated Buffy being a Generalissimo- but Spike chooses to only dwell on that when it’s directed at *him* because, again, he doesn’t like the Scoobies and he doesn’t seem to much like the Potentials. Which means that even though there’s a commonality of hurt feelings between Spike and the gang, Spike disassociates himself from the rank and file’s issues. Also, Spike is a vampire. Spike is close enough to humanity and his own otherness to connect to Buffy’s feelings of alienation and Buffy’s frustration that she hasn’t been respected enough. However, Spike’s not exactly close enough to his humanity to really feel the Potentials’ homesickness, fear of having to fight for their lives for the first time, etc.

              Spike also doesn’t stop to hear why Buffy was “fired”. Spike is acting like he thought that Scoobies just ousted for her performance which Spike pretty reasonably thinks is unfair. Spike didn’t hear that Buffy laid down an ultimatum that everyone must go to fight in the vineyard. Although, I think it’s likely that Spike’s above traits (hyper-loyalty to Buffy, hostility to the Scoobies, superpowers = Supreme Leaders, lack of connection to fears of mortality) would mean that Spike wouldn’t soften his attitude if he got a transcript of the Empty Places fight. And those above traits explain why Spike though he should jump to the name-calling, insulting, kicking and punching portion of the fight instead of hearing these *******s’ side of the story.
              Last edited by Dipstick; 04-05-13, 06:03 PM.

              Comment


              • This discussion seems to be more about S7 than what's going on in S9. Discussing Xander's previous betrayals and why Buffy shouldn't trust him in S9 is okay, but I think in the last two pages, the thread became more about S7.

                Let's go back to discussing S9.

                Just posted a new thread about this topic.
                Made by Trickyboxes
                Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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                • What really intrigues me about this whole situation is that the irony of Xander's choice to go with Severin and Simone's plan is that Buffy probably would agree with it herself if the plan's sole purpose was to undo the Twilight prophecy and save Dawn's life. In this case if that's what this rumored timeline reset is all about...I can definitely see the editorial reasons why they would go through with something like this. It doesn't mean I need to agree with going for the reset if only because I suspect it will be done purely for the whitewashing of what Buffy and Angel did in the Twilight storyline. What worries me about this reset idea is if they go through with it...then at what point do they take this reset back to?

                  Comment


                  • What really intrigues me about this whole situation is that the irony of Xander's choice to go with Severin and Simone's plan is that Buffy probably would agree with it herself if the plan's sole purpose was to undo the Twilight prophecy and save Dawn's life. In this case if that's what this rumored timeline reset is all about...I can definitely see the editorial reasons why they would go through with something like this. It doesn't mean I need to agree with going for the reset if only because I suspect it will be done purely for the whitewashing of what Buffy and Angel did in the Twilight storyline. What worries me about this reset idea is if they go through with it...then at what point do they take this reset back to?
                    I still doubt the reboot theory if only because it would render the plots of A & F, WW and SaDP pointless if S & S succeeded, unless everyone kept their memories of what was erased. I doubt Buffy would go along with it if only because her last time travel experiences did not go so great, and the unspecified badness that is supposed to happen by trying to rewind time.

                    If they did a reboot, the farthest they could go back is NFA, I doubt very much the comics that are supposed to be a continuation of the shows would undo things that happened in the shows.

                    EDIT: Also just remembered in the comments page for A & F #21 they are apparently "laying the groundwork for Season 10" so a reboot seems less likely.
                    Last edited by DanSlayer; 05-05-13, 05:49 PM.

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                    • Anybody want to make any last minute predictions for tomorrow's release? I'm hearing speculation Buffy's plan is to get to the Old Ones before Severin and Simone do. The question is what exactly is Buffy supposed to do if she does reach the Old Ones first?

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