Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Big Picture Thinking

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • MikeB
    replied
    All caught up




    tripie7

    Lets clarify some facts here, Buffy wasn't controlled or forced into any of the bad decisions she made in season 8,
    Yes, she was (at least when the glow happens). Spike said she was and Joss Whedon is the one who put those words in Spike’s mouth. Joss has never said otherwise.

    Also I find Spike an unreliable source for the glow, given that he wasn't there, didn't know what was Buffy was thinking, least of all if someone was controlling her.
    Aside from Twilight itself, perhaps Whistler, and perhaps Angel, he’s the one who knew the most about the Twilight thing.

    _________________________________________________

    * I look at these things from a cost-benefit analysis standpoint. Xander simply isn’t as useful to the fight for Good as Buffy and Willow are, and therefore he gets a lot less leeway.

    He wasn’t that helpful in BtVS S9 and his main actions risked the entire world.

    Leave a comment:


  • tripie7
    replied
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    What's Xander's excuse for betraying Willow? It wasn't just Buffy he lied to and doublecrossed. Even if you think Xander was justified to betray Buffy based on her actions in S8, it still doesn't justify deceiving Willow as well. It also doesn’t take into account his own personal need to “act” instead of “watch” which, whilst not his sole motivation, was certainly in the mix as well. It’s far too simple to just handwave Xander’s behaviour away on the account of Buffy’s infamous decision in S8 when he betrayed more people than just Buffy and let his own guilt/frustration about Giles (and Jesse etc) influence his decisions.

    What Xander did certainly isn’t The Worst Thing Ever and it is forgivable. But he doesn’t get a pass for working with the Big Bad’s on the account of Buffy having screwed up last season. His resentment towards Buffy certainly is understandable and for the most part I find his motivations sympathetic (wanting to save Dawn) but he’s still responsible for his own actions. I don’t want to see Xander cast out of the group but I certainly wouldn’t blame the other characters for being upset with him. He was working with Simone and Severin who had already attempted to kill Buffy, he used Buffy’s sacrifice in The Gift as a way of lulling her into trusting him, he allowed Buffy and Willow to fight the Council so their enemy could get safe passage into the Deeper Well, he lied to Willow who isn’t guilty of sleeping with Twangel etc. They're all pretty valid reasons for the other characters to be hurt by what Xander has done.
    Well to be fair at this point both Buffy and Willow have done morally questionable actions, which Xander has forgiven them. If anyone understands Xander's action it would actually be Willow, I think based on her history. It would also be very hypocritical of both them at this point. I'm not saying he hasn't done anything wrong, but at this point all of the original trio has betrayed each other. If Buffy can look past all of Angel's actions in season 8, she a complete hypocrite if she acts like Xander's betrayal is remotely comparable to that, it isn't. Although I never once said they didn't have reasons to feel betrayed, but I think Willow of all people might understand Xander more than anyone in this case. I can understand others being upset, but I also find his actions sympathetic, and a bit more complicated that Xander whats to save his girlfriend and to hell with the danger to the world, its nothing like Twangel's, me get powers, save the world, kill a few people, go to Tonga land with Buffy, were special snowflakes. Also I find it understandable not justifiable, not the really the same thing.
    Last edited by tripie7; 19-08-13, 12:56 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • vampmogs
    replied
    What's Xander's excuse for betraying Willow? It wasn't just Buffy he lied to and doublecrossed. Even if you think Xander was justified to betray Buffy based on her actions in S8, it still doesn't justify deceiving Willow as well. It also doesn’t take into account his own personal need to “act” instead of “watch” which, whilst not his sole motivation, was certainly in the mix as well. It’s far too simple to just handwave Xander’s behaviour away on the account of Buffy’s infamous decision in S8 when he betrayed more people than just Buffy and let his own guilt/frustration about Giles (and Jesse etc) influence his decisions.

    What Xander did certainly isn’t The Worst Thing Ever and it is forgivable. But he doesn’t get a pass for working with the Big Bad’s on the account of Buffy having screwed up last season. His resentment towards Buffy certainly is understandable and for the most part I find his motivations sympathetic (wanting to save Dawn) but he’s still responsible for his own actions. I don’t want to see Xander cast out of the group but I certainly wouldn’t blame the other characters for being upset with him. He was working with Simone and Severin who had already attempted to kill Buffy, he used Buffy’s sacrifice in The Gift as a way of lulling her into trusting him, he allowed Buffy and Willow to fight the Council so their enemy could get safe passage into the Deeper Well, he lied to Willow who isn’t guilty of sleeping with Twangel etc. They're all pretty valid reasons for the other characters to be hurt by what Xander has done.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 18-08-13, 11:30 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • tripie7
    replied
    Its been more than a year since I have written anything but as far as this discussion concerns. Lets clarify some facts here, Buffy wasn't controlled or forced into any of the bad decisions she made in season 8, which the consequences are playing out in season 9. Also I find Spike an unreliable source for the glow, given that he wasn't there, didn't know what was Buffy was thinking, least of all if someone was controlling her. Also the whole universe and evolution story still sounds like something made up from a bad fan fiction story, and the person who thinks killing one planet through the act of conception to make another is evolution clearly never took biology, and lets not getting started on the superior vampire prophecy that came out of nowhere.

    If there were any two characters who were in need of a strong reality check as far as big picture thinking, Buffy and Angel were set up for that storyline way back when they both stop showing on the television still years ago now. If Buffy gets all high and mighty with Xander, she has a whole lot responsibility for putting everyone at risk, at the word of a lunatic, who clearly wasn't morally sound(Twangel), least of reliable, and no Buffy didn't have any memory loss so she still risked Angelus. The evolution story came out nowhere and prophecy are not written in stone, a lesson Buffy learned way back in season 1, from the Master who basically told her in Prophecy Girl. Sorry but Buffy doesn't get to the play the naïve martyr that ship sailed in season 2. This in not a hate on Buffy, but I find all the woo is me for Buffy tiring, and since it was considered a self betrayal and a betrayal of everyone that trusted her, Xander isn't some ungrateful friend that betrayed her, unlike Twangel he came clean when it counted, he didn't beat her and everyone else, he's risking his own safety, and part of the reason for the betrayal, is Buffy's betrayal which stems back to season 2, and into Fray when Dark Willow makes the lurk comment for a reason in TOYL, I don't find it comparable to Twangel at all. Twangel is a victim of his own ego, and he should have known better.
    Last edited by tripie7; 18-08-13, 06:53 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeB
    replied
    * Buffy was glowified into having sex with Angel; she’s not at fault for that other than her still having feelings for Angel before she was TwilightAngel perhaps facilitated the level in which she could be glowified. Until Joss Whedon says otherwise about that situation – he had Spike in 8.40 saying she was “controlled” – I’m going to ignore and/or dismiss all talk, arguments, considerations, etc. that are based on Buffy being mostly or largely responsible for having sex with AngelTwilight.


    * Perhaps Xander was doing bad ‘Big Picture Thinking’ by deciding he’d side with Severin and Simone for the chance to revert time to before the Seed was broken but then not seeming to think of the possible consequences.

    Leave a comment:


  • DorothyFan1
    replied
    I really do think we have to go back and look at the group shot in the Willow miniseries because I think I found a big clue. In the puzzling group shot showing all the characters *except* Willow are looking at something or someone in THREE different directions.

    I think this is significant because it seems to tie into the questionable theory that there are three time lines in the Buffyverse going on. Buffy was wearing three watches in the Season 8 Twilight arc when she was with Angel after his reveal. But notice...in Season 9 during Willow's miniseries...she swung the Scythe three times in an attempt to fight her way back to her home. In each swipe of that Scythe...Willow may have created the three time lines we see referenced in Season 8.

    Then I took a closer look at the group shot in the next to last Willow miniseries issue. I think it was number 4. In that scene we see a whole group of people in there...but they're framed with their eyes looking in exactly *three* directions. Oz is the nearest of the characters on the far right and he's looking at the *right* side of the frame. Supposedly he's looking at Willow offscreen. Then we have Buffy, Dawn, Faith and the others looking *upwards*...their eyes are clearly framed to look at something or someone way above them. That's the second direction they're looking at. And finally, there's a third direction...and I didn't pay enough attention to see this the first time. But there we have Giles in the group shot as well and when I looked at him closely, I noticed he's looking in yet another direction, only to the *left* side of the panel.

    So there are three groups of people looking at someone in *three* different directions. Either this is yet another case of an inside joke by the writers trying to pull one over overly zealous nitpickers (like myself) into seeing something there when it's not true...or there really may be something to this three time lines theory. And given I've found more references to the three time lines theory I think it needs to get a closer look. The reason I say this now is because I think they're about to pull a fast one in the Season 9 finale.
    Last edited by DorothyFan1; 23-06-13, 02:04 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanSlayer
    replied
    Oh I can see that. I'm just saying if someone blamed Angel for what happens to Dawn his defense would probably be that was after TwiLion forced him to follow through with destroying this world, and that he was helping the Slayers prior to the Seed Chamber fight.

    The only other option would be to wait and see if Red-Eyed Willow could have magically finished off all the demons. Kennedy seems to be of the opinion that would have worked. And Willow blames both Buffy and Angel for the loss of the Seed. Spike supports Buffy's choice, Faith thinks it's good the Seed is gone so demons cannot end the world with magic, Xander and Dawn didn't seem to care either way (until the Key thing kicked in), Koh and Illyria seem only focused on what is the most pressing issue-Severin. Apparently his powers kicked in when the Seed broke, but they haven't really explained it clearly enough to know for certain.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingofCretins
    replied
    The die was cast with regard to the Seed being destroyed back in 8.33-8.34; when or even if Angel was possessed or not after that was moot in that context. Destroying the Seed is and was still the right choice, as there has still yet to be even one shred of Watsonian empirical evidence that there was anything else that could have averted Twilight at that point.

    Buffy's action in destroying the Seed is entirely transparent for fault; which is to say, the consequences of the Seed being broken are laid right at the feet of whomever made it necessary to destroy it. Those really aren't Buffy's feet in a culpable sense, because even if it was 100% within her decision-making control, Buffy couldn't reasonably foresee the harm that would result from sleeping with Angel. Angel, on the other hand not only knew, but intended the harm that result from them sleeping together -- the creation of a new reality that would destroy the old one and all in other than however many 10^N that Angel deemed worthy.

    There is just no sense in which nearly as much, let alone more, responsibility for any of this, lands on Buffy than on Angel.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanSlayer
    replied
    And, I'm willing to bet that the writing will never, ever make that connection either, so Buffy will probably turn to Angel for comfort, thanking him for bringing BabyGiles back, thus 'fixing' his screw-up.
    Even if they did the defense probably is that he did start helping the Slayers with his superpowers and Buffy only had to destroy the Seed after TwiLion beat the crap out of Angel, so he had no agency in what led Buffy to break the Seed, so Dawn's problem is *only* Buffy's fault.

    Leave a comment:


  • shipperx
    replied
    Well the problem now would be that Dawn is dying because of the aftermath of Twipocalypse. Though Buffy being Buffy will blame herself and never give a thought that it was a result of Twangel's last 'grand plan'.

    And, I'm willing to bet that the writing will never, ever make that connection either, so Buffy will probably turn to Angel for comfort, thanking him for bringing BabyGiles back, thus 'fixing' his screw-up. (Goodness knows she's not allowed to be angry over his high-handed, patronizing treatment of her or undermining her both personally and professionally. To quote Mad Men's Don Draper, you'll be amazed by how much this never happened.)
    Last edited by shipperx; 31-05-13, 12:39 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanSlayer
    replied
    Given the utter and complete lack of Angel reflecting on what led him to his problems while he and the story desperately try to ignore 99.5% of the dead bodies in that mindset's wake...

    Given the way he has not altered that mindset (everything in his resurrection story including his threats to Alistair trying to talk him out of it simply repeat it with even less criticism)...

    Given that time and again in A&F things are turned into Angel being 'right' (after five seconds if criticism Angel is thanked by the man he killed...because otherwise Giles would have been subject to a pact with a demon we had never heard about until they needed a way to excuse Angel having killed a character people cared about (because red shirt deaths aren't given anything like that concern or attention.)
    While I agree on the lack of Angel reflection, I would say the other redshirts who died are meant to be represented through Nadira. And Eyghon's inclusion in the current story was a nice nod to what the comics are supposed to be a continuation from without screwing with past canon.

    Whether I or any other reader agrees with the writers that someone's actions while being body-jacked by Eyghon are the same as Angel's actions while under Twi-Lion's direction is obviously up for debate. And Nadira is not out of the story yet, so this may still change. In the A & F book the writers are at least attempting to address Angel's mistakes in S8.

    The Buffy book has not acknowledged Buffy even made any mistakes, let alone tried to recover her character from them. Her meeting some of her former Slayers and them being mad (off-panel) about the Seed was such a missed opportunity. It doesn't even really make sense since most of the girls did not use magic. Since when does a General run off with the leader of an opposing Army? Even without the space-frack someone forcing Buffy to admit her soft spot for Angel has caused a lot of carnage is sorely needed. Then their is the fact that they are completely ignoring the anger Buffy should feel toward him. It gets even worse if you consider the S8 "betrayal" was apparently Buffy betraying herself, the lack of reflection on that is just as unsettling as the lack of Angel reflection, if not more so.

    If the consequences for Buffy are just Dawn fading away, what was the point of the other arcs when all the fans knew this would happen years ago? And even then Buffy still hasn't acknowledged culpability yet. And it was either destroy the Seed or hope Red-Eyed Willow could beat back the demons while more bodies piled up. Even Severin says to Xander destroying the Seed was the right choice. The writers don't see a problem with the Buffy's choices, except the choices they ignore.

    How they intend to do the next Buffy/Angel meeting has me very nervous. It is very unlikely they will have Angel just grovel, so almost anything else he says or does will make him seem like and @ss again, especially if he tries to brush of the damage he did by showing her kid Giles. I could see them ignoring the S8 damage entirely and just focus on Buffy's reaction to her Watcher. If they have Buffy forgive Angel for everything when she sees mini Giles, that would be a pretty terrible writing choice, even if they are sick of fans complaining about how bad the writers screwed up the two leads with the Twilight arc.
    Last edited by DanSlayer; 30-05-13, 04:42 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • shipperx
    replied
    Her superiority complex makes her believe she is still the best Slayer, that she has to make the tough choices, for the world.

    Isn't "For the world" the same as "For the Greater Good"? The same kind of thinking that Angel used to quell his doubts as he wore that mask? Does anyone else find how they are writing Buffy (and perhaps Willow) this season troubling?
    While there have been problems with Buffy characterization for a while, and while everything you say about Angel is true, I think there's a difference between what we as readers identify as a problem and what those who produce the story consider to be a problem.

    Given the utter and complete lack of Angel reflecting on what led him to his problems while he and the story desperately try to ignore 99.5% of the dead bodies in that mindset's wake...

    Given the way he has not altered that mindset (everything in his resurrection story including his threats to Alistair trying to talk him out of it simply repeat it with even less criticism)...

    Given that time and again in A&F things are turned into Angel being 'right' (after five seconds if criticism Angel is thanked by the man he killed...because otherwise Giles would have been subject to a pact with a demon we had never heard about until they needed a way to excuse Angel having killed a character people cared about (because red shirt deaths aren't given anything like that concern or attention.)

    Add it all up and I'm simply not seeing the writing indicating that it has any problem with Angel's mindset. There's been no dissection of it, and they certainly have made no effort to show Angel as having learned anything from it.

    Sure there are potential problems in Angel's martyr complex becoming melded to his ego and his white knight complex, but the story seems to buy into the simplistic mindset of 'woe to the hero's heavy burdens'... and we know that he's the hero not so much by his actions as by the fact that he's hero by caveat. At this point I assume it's embossed on his butt like a Ken doll.

    Angel is hero because...well... he's the hero. And he makes these choices because he's the 'hero'. And we shouldn't criticize him too much for it because the writing won't.

    So is a 'I'm the hero! I make these choices!' spreading? Perhaps.

    Is it problematic? In what way? Philosophically? Yes probably. Within the story? Not so much.

    The story seems to follow and attempts to justify this faulty philosophy. Buffy may experience backlash for some actions, but 'I'm the hero so I decide' probably won't be the reason.
    Last edited by shipperx; 30-05-13, 08:42 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeB
    replied
    I’m not going to discuss Buffy/Spike in this thread.




    DanSlayer

    I've been thinking over all the titles, and stuff from S8. Angel has almost always been prone to thinking of "The Big Picture".
    Angel’s mostly simply does what ‘higher powers’ tell him to do. The whole “Not Fade Away” (A 5.22) think wasn’t ‘big picture’ thinking because Angel and Co. assumed they’d all be killed if they killed the Circle; also, Wolfram and Hart could still make another apocalypse.


    * Angel was Twilight because he was ‘promised’ that he’d get to be with Buffy in a happy place.

    Spoiler:
    And before the time reversal Conner, Illyria, Groo, Gunn's human life and Angel himself all died during the Fall as well.
    Connor died. If I remember correctly, Angel died purposefully so that the timeline would be reversed and Hell-LA would be no more.



    * How Willow’s story plays out is yet to be determined, so I’ll not comment on that.

    [Buffy’s] superiority complex makes her believe she is still the best Slayer, that she has to make the tough choices, for the world.
    Buffy being the best Slayer makes her know she’s still the best Slayer. Buffy has to make the tough choices – this has been true since before “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01). The Slayer’s job is to save the world. The other Slayers abandoned her and Faith is off trying to help Angel, gave Buffy the Vampr book, and told Buffy that Buffy is still The Vampire Slayer.

    Isn't "For the world" the same as "For the Greater Good"?
    No, “for the greater good” is often interpreted as “for the greater good according to what I think is the greater good.” That, or simply it’s a ‘cover’ for a selfish desire. Buffy facing the Master in “Prophecy Girl” (1.12): for the world. Wood and Giles deciding Spike should be dusted: their selfish desire to want Spike ‘out of the way’.

    The same kind of thinking that Angel used to quell his doubts as he wore that mask? Does anyone else find how they are writing Buffy (and perhaps Willow) this season troubling?
    Buffy in BtVS S9 is not comparable to Angel in BtVS S8. Buffy is doing the best she can and has about done about nothing but good. Willow isn’t as bad as Angel is. A comparison could be made if Willow had to destroy the Earth in order to stay with Aluwyn in that one dimension and Willow tried to destroy the world.

    __________________________________________________ __

    [Spike] choose to burn up so the Slayer Army could win
    They had already won and all the Turok-han were already killed. Spike burned up because he reasoned the resulting ‘fallout’ would be the complete destruction of Sunnydale and the possibly permanent closing of the Sunnydale Hellmouth.



    Stoney

    Buffy saw [the wider picture] when she stabbed Angel into Acathla, she saw it when she dove off the tower.
    It was either Angel alone or Angel and the rest of the world; Buffy was leaving the world without an active Slayer.



    dorotea

    * The only reason Twilight happened is because Angel agreed to be Twilight. It didn’t cause any good.

    In “Chosen” (7.22), Buffy, Spike, and Willow are heroes. In BtVS S8, Angel is a world-ending supervillian.

    Leave a comment:


  • dorotea
    replied
    Originally posted by DanSlayer View Post
    .

    It's debatable whether the PTB meant for Angel to take out the PTB with a last stand like he did.
    Meaning the OBSM is 'only' the fandom most favored interpretation based on individual perception. I never saw much meaning in this view of AtS finale, I never fathomed it before I happened to hit the Buffy verse forums, and up to this day I consider it fandom fanon invented urban legend, that has nothing to do with writers original intentions. Sorry. Not a fan of fandom most popular opinion here


    At minimum Giles will probably get a chance to talk with Angel & Faith somehow even if he doesn't come back.
    Ah, but Giles already had quite an impact on Angel, and Faith had a few personal visions of him as well. So as an 'impact' the mission can be considered 'complete' . I fully expect next arc to be fully about Angel recognizing the fact that Giles cannot be brought back, yada. Not that I seriously care.

    I also think A & F will stay together, it's gotten the most praise from what I've seen.
    I hope they won't, based on both the comic dropping 30% of the sales 21K ->14 K and the storyline completion. Keep my fingers crossed. Have no desire to continue reading it *just* to get my Angel fix. Hope all of us Angel fans can make DH consider dropping A&F and going for something different.


    Emmie wrote a great post with all the problems of S9 for the Buffy book
    Since I have her on ignore I can't really share your opinion here.
    Last edited by dorotea; 11-04-13, 05:38 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanSlayer
    replied
    I am about as much trusting Lindsey as you are. But there is the PtB's visions delivered by Cordelia's last kiss, and Lorne's listening to Lindsey sing. The last one was convincing enough to me to understand why Lorne agreed to go along. The first one was majorly convincing to me to accept the need to the gang to take out the Circle. That, and Wesley's as ghost vision of the last Apo
    .

    It's debatable whether the PTB meant for Angel to take out the PTB with a last stand like he did. All pure speculation since we have no info on them except Whistler's origin, but personally I would have thought to use the Black Thorn as a way to strike at the SP themselves, and take them down as a global threat. I know they won;t die off in the style of a Buffy Big Bad, but limiting them for a few hundred years or sealing them away like Illyria seems like a better plan then just briefly slowing only the LA branch.

    Yes, but think about it. The threats were themselves the product of the Slayer Army becoming a Major Player. It is like there would never be an arms race without the Other Superpower. I thought it was rather cool how S8 portrayed the Root of the Problem and Consequences on that front. Failed Slayer propaganda campaign vs Harmony's Reality Show. Buffy robbing the bank to provide for her girls vs first rise of twilight organization inside the US Army - to resist the magical threat. And so on.
    Maybe. But as I said General Buffy is not a favorite aspect for me. And the Dracula knock offs might still of happened when Dracula bet his powers. Another problem is how Buffy or at least some new Slayers didn't try and explain to the public at large about the demon world, logically they should have gained support after the shock and horror wore off regular folk.

    And I know it was commentary on the current vampire craze, but the whole world seemingly accepting Harmony without some backlash or other Whirlwind-like vampire quickly smearing the "Friendly Vampire" image flies in the face of most of the shows portrayal of vamps. On TV, Harmony was the oddball type vampire, in the comics she is the norm apparently.

    Well, if you don't count Simone
    I don't. She was already reckless and not far of of being homicidal when we met her, S3 Faith with a gun and less family issues. Her actions in S9 don't totally jibe with her original personality IMO.
    I have not the slightest doubt that Giles won't be brought back, and that the season's purpose was from the start never about literally 'bringing Giles back' but was all about something else of which I shall not speak now.

    I also have strong desire to not see the A&F continue. Hope that desire will materialize, whatever the resolution of the season.
    It could go either way now I think. Of course their will be a cost, but I don't know if they'll pass up the option of having Giles talk to Buffy, Willow and Xander about their S9 actions. At minimum Giles will probably get a chance to talk with Angel & Faith somehow even if he doesn't come back.

    I also think A & F will stay together, it's gotten the most praise from what I've seen.

    As for Buffy book, if we look at the S8 premonitions the final arc is somewhat predictable. And entirely not something I will sweat over. Willow's return with magic made my day, the finale of the series is entirely optional in my humble opinion.
    Emmie wrote a great post with all the problems of S9 for the Buffy book for the issue 19 thread. While predictable, I wonder how they will finish. The questions of Dawn, Illyria and maybe Fred and even where Spike stands are holding my interest. Only something I really hated would cause me to drop it completely. Willow begging Kennedy's forgiveness for example.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X