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  • Big Picture Thinking

    I've been thinking over all the titles, and stuff from S8. Angel has almost always been prone to thinking of "The Big Picture". This why he intended NFA to be a last stand for his team. It is also how Whistler coaxed him into accepting the damage he was doing as Twilight. And now it is how Whistler has convinced himself a couple billion lives lost is acceptable if he makes magic part of nature for everyone in the long run.

    The last stand in NFA cost Wesley his life.
    Spoiler:
    And before the time reversal Conner, Illyria, Groo, Gunn's human life and Angel himself all died during the Fall as well.


    Twilight Time caused the death of a lot of Slayers, redshirts and Giles.

    This kind of thinking does not end well. Angel has moved away from trying to change to world, but is still trying to pull off a Grand Gesture and bring Giles back.

    What worries me as that both Willow and Buffy seem to be embracing BPT. Willow may or may not be a Seed, but she is at minimum the new magical Source for the world. If she has to share magic, that may mean sharing it with people/demons who would use it for evil. Willow united with her "Dark" side in her mini. She could still be very well going down TOYL. This could be a really interesting story, but not good for Willow herself.

    With Buffy, even after the Slayer Army went to hell, she still thinks someone (she) needs to be able to make tough calls for the world even though people die. She's moved away from her early days of saving people from demon attacks. She tried to change the world and it did not come without cost. In 8.40 she seemed to go back to saving people before the world. But S9 has written her as putting thinking the world matters more and she seemingly has no remorse over the collateral damage. "Something changed as I got older-but I don't think that's a bad thing."

    Her superiority complex makes her believe she is still the best Slayer, that she has to make the tough choices, for the world.

    Isn't "For the world" the same as "For the Greater Good"? The same kind of thinking that Angel used to quell his doubts as he wore that mask? Does anyone else find how they are writing Buffy (and perhaps Willow) this season troubling?

  • #2
    But part of the allure and the reason why it is easy for Angel to get it wrong is because the wider picture is what a hero needs to see. Buffy saw it when she stabbed Angel into Acathla, she saw it when she dove off the tower. Spike saw it when he stood in the hellmouth and burned. Angel sees the world picture but he is lured by the appeal of being the hero that saves it and that is what draws the wrong choices out sometimes.

    Willow is possibly off on a rocky path as her own desire for magic certainly played a part in her drive to restore it but it all came with details of why the world needed it back so, as it stands, there isn't a reason to feel that it wasn't needed and the 'right' choice.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DanSlayer View Post
      The last stand in NFA cost Wesley his life.
      I always thouth it was Wesley's personal decisions to fight the good fight that cost him his life. Non-resistance is a fine brand of philosophy, yet Wesley made his choice when he first entered the fight. It is kind of insulting to his personal choices to make him a victim when he thouth he was dying a hero.

      Spoiler:
      And before the time reversal Conner, Illyria, Groo, Gunn's human life and Angel himself all died during the Fall as well.
      And that was a bad choice because staying alive is ultimate priority ? Meaning sacrifice is pointless if one is not instantly victorious?

      Twilight Time caused the death of a lot of Slayers, redshirts and Giles.
      Defeating the First caused the death of a lot of Slayers, redshirts and Anya. Empowering the Slayers (as in multiple) to defeat the First caused Twilight ( was one of the prerequisites). Resurrecting Buffy caused calling of the First . That caused 'the death of a lot of Slayers, redshirts and Anya'. Buffy's self-sacrifice to save Dawn caused her later resurrection, that caused rise of the First, that caused the empowerment of multiple Slayers, that caused the Twilight. Good causality clause here.

      This kind of thinking does not end well.
      Alternatively - *any kind of thinking* in Buffy-verse does not end well. If the writers so desire. See the above. Not thinking about the Big Picture can be equally dangerous. In fact, concentrating on bringing One Person Back is kind of an example when Big Picture is specifically ignored for the sake of that one single person. And it still does not end well. Because the drama has to be there to make a story. Therefore Not choosing the Big Picture is bad, but choosing it for the sake of single individual is equally bad - because see above. What ultimately would end well (in theory) is ignoring everything and concentrating on one's personal priorities - this way one can ignore both the Big Picture and the small men. In this Light Simone is a perfect hero.
      Last edited by dorotea; 31-03-13, 05:08 AM.
      “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Stoney View Post
        But part of the allure and the reason why it is easy for Angel to get it wrong is because the wider picture is what a hero needs to see. Buffy saw it when she stabbed Angel into Acathla, she saw it when she dove off the tower. Spike saw it when he stood in the hellmouth and burned. Angel sees the world picture but he is lured by the appeal of being the hero that saves it and that is what draws the wrong choices out sometimes.

        Willow is possibly off on a rocky path as her own desire for magic certainly played a part in her drive to restore it but it all came with details of why the world needed it back so, as it stands, there isn't a reason to feel that it wasn't needed and the 'right' choice.
        I concede we have to wait for how Willow plays out. Acathla she did choose the world over Angel, but Buffy only went into that fight after letting go of Angel and expecting to kill the all-evil Angelus.

        With the tower, and Spike I see those differently. I see the tower as choosing to protect the individual of Dawn rather then the world. With Spike, he did not know what the amulet would do until the 11th hour. He choose to burn up so the Slayer Army could win, but I personally think he mostly chose to die so Buffy could survive.

        And perhaps he may have given up the hope of being with her in a real relationship after Buffy and Angel instantly made out the moment they saw each other again JMO. Never liked that scene, felt Buffy and Angel were both regressed there. In ATS he didn't know what to do now that he wasn't a pile of dust, and he didn't feel that he had good enough chances with Buffy to actually go and find her and ask for something real.
        Last edited by DanSlayer; 11-04-13, 12:33 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by dorotea View Post
          I always thouth it was Wesley's personal decisions to fight the good fight that cost him his life. Non-resistance is a fine brand of philosophy, yet Wesley made his choice when he first entered the fight. It is kind of insulting to his personal choices to make him a victim when he thouth he was dying a hero.

          And that was a bad choice because staying alive is ultimate priority ? Meaning sacrifice is pointless if one is not instantly victorious?


          Defeating the First caused the death of a lot of Slayers, redshirts and Anya. Empowering the Slayers (as in multiple) to defeat the First caused Twilight ( was one of the prerequisites). Resurrecting Buffy caused calling of the First . That caused 'the death of a lot of Slayers, redshirts and Anya'. Buffy's self-sacrifice to save Dawn caused her later resurrection, that caused rise of the First, that caused the empowerment of multiple Slayers, that caused the Twilight. Good causality clause here.

          Alternatively - *any kind of thinking* in Buffy-verse does not end well. If the writers so desire. See the above. Not thinking about the Big Picture can be equally dangerous. In fact, concentrating on bringing One Person Back is kind of an example when Big Picture is specifically ignored for the sake of that one single person. And it still does not end well. Because the drama has to be there to make a story. Therefore Not choosing the Big Picture is bad, but choosing it for the sake of single individual is equally bad - because see above. What ultimately would end well (in theory) is ignoring everything and concentrating on one's personal priorities - this way one can ignore both the Big Picture and the small men. In this Light Simone is a perfect hero.
          You have a point, ATF was not perfect but I did like how it wrapped up Wesley as character, especially the
          Spoiler:
          "Thank you rogue demon hunter." As Angel's goodbye.


          Meaning Angel knew there would most likely be consequences for a lot more people then just himself, Spike, Gunn and Illyria. The most obvious being Connor and Lorne but he threw caution to the wind for the sake of his "One Bright Shining Moment".

          Yes, the fact the humanized downside of Buffy's Empowerment Spell was never really explored, at least on panel. The closest we got was Faith mentioning "Your everybody in the pool strategy beat down The First, but it also put a lot of girls through the meat grinder..." The more cosmic consequences were too convoluted gain much insight from, at least to me.

          I'm not saying the Scoobies or Angel should just be focused on their wants and needs, I just think they are at there best when trying to help/save the smaller people. And also the people closest to them, but that is likley because I get invested as a fan of this circle of characters rather then just trying to always save "the world". General Buffy and Twangel are not favorite sides of either character for me.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DanSlayer View Post

            Meaning Angel knew there would most likely be consequences for a lot more people then just himself, Spike, Gunn and Illyria. The most obvious being Connor and Lorne but he threw caution to the wind for the sake of his "One Bright Shining Moment".
            I always thought Angel went on with the PtB plan not for the sake of OBSM but for the sake of stopping the Apocalypses that W&H were cooking for the end of the season. Technically he could not win, because either way the world would have been a toast. If he did not do anything W&H would have won and get their shiny new Apo with him as VIP. If he tried to do 'something', which he did, there would be a chance of the consequences stioll not being the end of the world. Which is exactly what happened if one takes into account the AtF.

            Yes, the fact the humanized downside of Buffy's Empowerment Spell was never really explored, at least on panel.
            Eh? I thought it was explored pretty well in S8.

            --- > 'You are at war with the human race.' 'Oh - Key'.

            The more cosmic consequences were too convoluted gain much insight from, at least to me.
            'To quote loosely from issue 34 S8 : 'Buffy shared the power' that upset the balance and triggered Twilight. Not enough consequences explored ? The wingy-lion-thingy was on panel/s chasing Buffy in her nightmares 'to swallow her whole' somewhere around issues 1-11. I will dig it later if you wish.


            I'm not saying the Scoobies or Angel should just be focused on their wants and needs, I just think they are at there best when trying to help/save the smaller people. And also the people closest to them, but that is likley because I get invested as a fan of this circle of characters rather then just trying to always save "the world". General Buffy and Twangel are not favorite sides of either character for me.
            Well, I actually agree with that one completely. Except the funny part that is happening in S9 right now. Angel is trying to concentrate on one small guy - and as result is about to miss what Whistler is cooking which is a global thing.

            Buffy is concentrating on Dawn - and is about to miss what Severin is doing - which is a global time loop catastrophe. I am just chuckling to myself because of 'consistency', that's all.

            And always remember the ending of Cabin in the Woods. Sure enough, concentrate on saving one little guy - and the world goes BOOM, because the Old Ones are awakening. One cannot win in Whedonverse. It is ironic.
            Last edited by dorotea; 10-04-13, 10:43 PM.
            “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

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            • #7
              I always thought Angel went on with the PtB plan not for the sake of OBSM but for the sake of stopping the Apocalypses that W&H were cooking for the end of the season. Technically he could not win, because either way the world would have been a toast. If he did not do anything W&H would have won and get their shiny new Apo with him as VIP. If he tried to do 'something', which he did, there would be a chance of the consequences stioll not being the end of the world.
              Eh, the one who made Angel aware another Apocalypse was coming was Lindsey and he is far from a reliable source. It's been a while since I've seen S5 but I thought W & H were just happy to have Angel controlled and seemingly on board when he chose to join the Black Thorn. Nothing from what I remember suggests that the Circle was the thing they were grooming Angel for since that start of the show, if you include ATF
              the scene with Angel in vamp face with a bunch of mounted heads around him indicated that the specific Apocalypse with Angel has yet to pass.
              Eh? I thought it was explored pretty well in S8.

              --- > 'You are at war with the human race.' 'Oh - Key'
              .

              Sorry should have explained this better. While The Long Way Home seemed to set that up, and Faith dealt with a specific threat in Gigi in the next arc, Buffy's time afterward was split into dealing with bigger threats relating to the girls who joined her and therefore think the spell was a good thing. The threats Buffy dealt with were all external and large Big Picture: Dracula knock offs, Harmony becoming famous (though Buffy did not really do much there), redshirt Human Army etc. And therefore she and her girls weren't so much into saving the little guy anymore.

              Faith and Giles dealt with the more personal-level internal problems such as the girls who did not want power in "Safe". Faith and Giles helping Slayers that did not choose Buffy's way happened mostly of panel. Nadira even says how some new Slayers were rejected by their families in A & F. Buffy made the choice for all Potentials to be Slayers. The one time we saw a Slayer directly reject Buffy herself was the one who ended up being drained by Harmony.

              'To quote loosely from issue 34 S8 : 'Buffy shared the power' that upset the balance and triggered Twilight. Not enough consequences explored ? The wingy-lion-thingy was on panel/s chasing Buffy in her nightmares 'to swallow her whole' somewhere around issues 1-11. I will dig it later if you wish.
              The basic set up I understand. How Twilight can be it's own world and lion and somehow take over people and animals before it was born, how it was said to be "evolution" of the universe, how it is supposed to be "meant to be" from long ago but somehow is also only a result of Buffy's choices, how Giles did not see this before, the questions of agency for both Buffy and Angel (even without the spacefrack questions), all make it a mess for me. Seeing as they (rightly) don't seem to want to bring Twi-Kitty back anytime soon I doubt it'll be clearer.

              Angel is trying to concentrate on one small guy - and as result is about to miss what Whistler is cooking which is a global thing.

              Buffy is concentrating on Dawn - and is about to miss what Severin is doing - which is a global time loop catastrophe. I am just chuckling to myself because of 'consistency', that's all.
              On A & F the Giles quest has brought them into contact with their Big Bads enough so that can reasonably assume they would intend to deal with them after they get Giles back like they are hoping, or at least try. If it didn't work I don't know if Angel would go back into a shell again, but at least Faith would try and take them on, and Nadira and Spike would probably help against P & N.

              With Buffy, the Big Bads have not felt like a looming presence all season like they should. We had no real info on S & S plan until arc 4 of 5 so before now there hasn't been much for Buffy to miss. And the Dawn crisis also really began in the same arc so Buffy is still in initial reaction mode to it, so I can see how she would miss other things that don't seem to relate to Dawn.
              Last edited by DanSlayer; 11-04-13, 03:25 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DanSlayer View Post
                Eh, the one who made Angel aware another Apocalypse was coming was Lindsey and he is far from a reliable source. It's been a while since I've seen S5 but I thought W & H were just happy to have Angel controlled and seemingly on board when he chose to join the Black Thorn.
                I am about as much trusting Lindsey as you are. But there is the PtB's visions delivered by Cordelia's last kiss, and Lorne's listening to Lindsey sing. The last one was convincing enough to me to understand why Lorne agreed to go along. The first one was majorly convincing to me to accept the need to the gang to take out the Circle. That, and Wesley's as ghost vision of the last Apo.

                The threats Buffy dealt with were all external and large Big Picture: Dracula knock offs, Harmony becoming famous (though Buffy did not really do much there), redshirt Human Army etc. And therefore she and her girls weren't so much into saving the little guy anymore.
                Yes, but think about it. The threats were themselves the product of the Slayer Army becoming a Major Player. It is like there would never be an arms race without the Other Superpower. I thought it was rather cool how S8 portrayed the Root of the Problem and Consequences on that front. Failed Slayer propaganda campaign vs Harmony's Reality Show. Buffy robbing the bank to provide for her girls vs first rise of twilight organization inside the US Army - to resist the magical threat. And so on.

                The one time we saw a Slayer directly reject Buffy herself was the one who ended up being drained by Harmony.
                Well, if you don't count Simone.

                How Twilight can be it's own world and lion and somehow take over people and animals before it was born, how it was said to be "evolution" of the universe, how it is supposed to be "meant to be" from long ago but somehow is also only a result of Buffy's choices, how Giles did not see this before, the questions of agency for both Buffy and Angel (even without the spacefrack questions), all make it a mess for me. Seeing as they (rightly) don't seem to want to bring Twi-Kitty back anytime soon I doubt it'll be clearer.
                Well, you are not the only one here. Intelligent Universes who can possess their metaphysical parents ? Urgh. Methinks though, that Twilight was thought out as a metaphor from the start ( for the bright new world of multiple Slayers and their Army) from the start, thus the mechanics of the plot were not well defined.

                On A & F the Giles quest has brought them into contact with their Big Bads enough so that can reasonably assume they would intend to deal with them after they get Giles back like they are hoping, or at least try. If it didn't work I don't know if Angel would go back into a shell again, but at least Faith would try and take them on, and Nadira and Spike would probably help against P & N.
                I have not the slightest doubt that Giles won't be brought back, and that the season's purpose was from the start never about literally 'bringing Giles back' but was all about something else of which I shall not speak now.

                I also have strong desire to not see the A&F continue. Hope that desire will materialize, whatever the resolution of the season.


                As for Buffy book, if we look at the S8 premonitions the final arc is somewhat predictable. And entirely not something I will sweat over. Willow's return with magic made my day, the finale of the series is entirely optional in my humble opinion.
                “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

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                • #9
                  I am about as much trusting Lindsey as you are. But there is the PtB's visions delivered by Cordelia's last kiss, and Lorne's listening to Lindsey sing. The last one was convincing enough to me to understand why Lorne agreed to go along. The first one was majorly convincing to me to accept the need to the gang to take out the Circle. That, and Wesley's as ghost vision of the last Apo
                  .

                  It's debatable whether the PTB meant for Angel to take out the PTB with a last stand like he did. All pure speculation since we have no info on them except Whistler's origin, but personally I would have thought to use the Black Thorn as a way to strike at the SP themselves, and take them down as a global threat. I know they won;t die off in the style of a Buffy Big Bad, but limiting them for a few hundred years or sealing them away like Illyria seems like a better plan then just briefly slowing only the LA branch.

                  Yes, but think about it. The threats were themselves the product of the Slayer Army becoming a Major Player. It is like there would never be an arms race without the Other Superpower. I thought it was rather cool how S8 portrayed the Root of the Problem and Consequences on that front. Failed Slayer propaganda campaign vs Harmony's Reality Show. Buffy robbing the bank to provide for her girls vs first rise of twilight organization inside the US Army - to resist the magical threat. And so on.
                  Maybe. But as I said General Buffy is not a favorite aspect for me. And the Dracula knock offs might still of happened when Dracula bet his powers. Another problem is how Buffy or at least some new Slayers didn't try and explain to the public at large about the demon world, logically they should have gained support after the shock and horror wore off regular folk.

                  And I know it was commentary on the current vampire craze, but the whole world seemingly accepting Harmony without some backlash or other Whirlwind-like vampire quickly smearing the "Friendly Vampire" image flies in the face of most of the shows portrayal of vamps. On TV, Harmony was the oddball type vampire, in the comics she is the norm apparently.

                  Well, if you don't count Simone
                  I don't. She was already reckless and not far of of being homicidal when we met her, S3 Faith with a gun and less family issues. Her actions in S9 don't totally jibe with her original personality IMO.
                  I have not the slightest doubt that Giles won't be brought back, and that the season's purpose was from the start never about literally 'bringing Giles back' but was all about something else of which I shall not speak now.

                  I also have strong desire to not see the A&F continue. Hope that desire will materialize, whatever the resolution of the season.
                  It could go either way now I think. Of course their will be a cost, but I don't know if they'll pass up the option of having Giles talk to Buffy, Willow and Xander about their S9 actions. At minimum Giles will probably get a chance to talk with Angel & Faith somehow even if he doesn't come back.

                  I also think A & F will stay together, it's gotten the most praise from what I've seen.

                  As for Buffy book, if we look at the S8 premonitions the final arc is somewhat predictable. And entirely not something I will sweat over. Willow's return with magic made my day, the finale of the series is entirely optional in my humble opinion.
                  Emmie wrote a great post with all the problems of S9 for the Buffy book for the issue 19 thread. While predictable, I wonder how they will finish. The questions of Dawn, Illyria and maybe Fred and even where Spike stands are holding my interest. Only something I really hated would cause me to drop it completely. Willow begging Kennedy's forgiveness for example.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DanSlayer View Post
                    .

                    It's debatable whether the PTB meant for Angel to take out the PTB with a last stand like he did.
                    Meaning the OBSM is 'only' the fandom most favored interpretation based on individual perception. I never saw much meaning in this view of AtS finale, I never fathomed it before I happened to hit the Buffy verse forums, and up to this day I consider it fandom fanon invented urban legend, that has nothing to do with writers original intentions. Sorry. Not a fan of fandom most popular opinion here


                    At minimum Giles will probably get a chance to talk with Angel & Faith somehow even if he doesn't come back.
                    Ah, but Giles already had quite an impact on Angel, and Faith had a few personal visions of him as well. So as an 'impact' the mission can be considered 'complete' . I fully expect next arc to be fully about Angel recognizing the fact that Giles cannot be brought back, yada. Not that I seriously care.

                    I also think A & F will stay together, it's gotten the most praise from what I've seen.
                    I hope they won't, based on both the comic dropping 30% of the sales 21K ->14 K and the storyline completion. Keep my fingers crossed. Have no desire to continue reading it *just* to get my Angel fix. Hope all of us Angel fans can make DH consider dropping A&F and going for something different.


                    Emmie wrote a great post with all the problems of S9 for the Buffy book
                    Since I have her on ignore I can't really share your opinion here.
                    Last edited by dorotea; 11-04-13, 05:38 AM.
                    “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I’m not going to discuss Buffy/Spike in this thread.




                      DanSlayer

                      I've been thinking over all the titles, and stuff from S8. Angel has almost always been prone to thinking of "The Big Picture".
                      Angel’s mostly simply does what ‘higher powers’ tell him to do. The whole “Not Fade Away” (A 5.22) think wasn’t ‘big picture’ thinking because Angel and Co. assumed they’d all be killed if they killed the Circle; also, Wolfram and Hart could still make another apocalypse.


                      * Angel was Twilight because he was ‘promised’ that he’d get to be with Buffy in a happy place.

                      Spoiler:
                      And before the time reversal Conner, Illyria, Groo, Gunn's human life and Angel himself all died during the Fall as well.
                      Connor died. If I remember correctly, Angel died purposefully so that the timeline would be reversed and Hell-LA would be no more.



                      * How Willow’s story plays out is yet to be determined, so I’ll not comment on that.

                      [Buffy’s] superiority complex makes her believe she is still the best Slayer, that she has to make the tough choices, for the world.
                      Buffy being the best Slayer makes her know she’s still the best Slayer. Buffy has to make the tough choices – this has been true since before “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01). The Slayer’s job is to save the world. The other Slayers abandoned her and Faith is off trying to help Angel, gave Buffy the Vampr book, and told Buffy that Buffy is still The Vampire Slayer.

                      Isn't "For the world" the same as "For the Greater Good"?
                      No, “for the greater good” is often interpreted as “for the greater good according to what I think is the greater good.” That, or simply it’s a ‘cover’ for a selfish desire. Buffy facing the Master in “Prophecy Girl” (1.12): for the world. Wood and Giles deciding Spike should be dusted: their selfish desire to want Spike ‘out of the way’.

                      The same kind of thinking that Angel used to quell his doubts as he wore that mask? Does anyone else find how they are writing Buffy (and perhaps Willow) this season troubling?
                      Buffy in BtVS S9 is not comparable to Angel in BtVS S8. Buffy is doing the best she can and has about done about nothing but good. Willow isn’t as bad as Angel is. A comparison could be made if Willow had to destroy the Earth in order to stay with Aluwyn in that one dimension and Willow tried to destroy the world.

                      __________________________________________________ __

                      [Spike] choose to burn up so the Slayer Army could win
                      They had already won and all the Turok-han were already killed. Spike burned up because he reasoned the resulting ‘fallout’ would be the complete destruction of Sunnydale and the possibly permanent closing of the Sunnydale Hellmouth.



                      Stoney

                      Buffy saw [the wider picture] when she stabbed Angel into Acathla, she saw it when she dove off the tower.
                      It was either Angel alone or Angel and the rest of the world; Buffy was leaving the world without an active Slayer.



                      dorotea

                      * The only reason Twilight happened is because Angel agreed to be Twilight. It didn’t cause any good.

                      In “Chosen” (7.22), Buffy, Spike, and Willow are heroes. In BtVS S8, Angel is a world-ending supervillian.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Her superiority complex makes her believe she is still the best Slayer, that she has to make the tough choices, for the world.

                        Isn't "For the world" the same as "For the Greater Good"? The same kind of thinking that Angel used to quell his doubts as he wore that mask? Does anyone else find how they are writing Buffy (and perhaps Willow) this season troubling?
                        While there have been problems with Buffy characterization for a while, and while everything you say about Angel is true, I think there's a difference between what we as readers identify as a problem and what those who produce the story consider to be a problem.

                        Given the utter and complete lack of Angel reflecting on what led him to his problems while he and the story desperately try to ignore 99.5% of the dead bodies in that mindset's wake...

                        Given the way he has not altered that mindset (everything in his resurrection story including his threats to Alistair trying to talk him out of it simply repeat it with even less criticism)...

                        Given that time and again in A&F things are turned into Angel being 'right' (after five seconds if criticism Angel is thanked by the man he killed...because otherwise Giles would have been subject to a pact with a demon we had never heard about until they needed a way to excuse Angel having killed a character people cared about (because red shirt deaths aren't given anything like that concern or attention.)

                        Add it all up and I'm simply not seeing the writing indicating that it has any problem with Angel's mindset. There's been no dissection of it, and they certainly have made no effort to show Angel as having learned anything from it.

                        Sure there are potential problems in Angel's martyr complex becoming melded to his ego and his white knight complex, but the story seems to buy into the simplistic mindset of 'woe to the hero's heavy burdens'... and we know that he's the hero not so much by his actions as by the fact that he's hero by caveat. At this point I assume it's embossed on his butt like a Ken doll.

                        Angel is hero because...well... he's the hero. And he makes these choices because he's the 'hero'. And we shouldn't criticize him too much for it because the writing won't.

                        So is a 'I'm the hero! I make these choices!' spreading? Perhaps.

                        Is it problematic? In what way? Philosophically? Yes probably. Within the story? Not so much.

                        The story seems to follow and attempts to justify this faulty philosophy. Buffy may experience backlash for some actions, but 'I'm the hero so I decide' probably won't be the reason.
                        Last edited by shipperx; 30-05-13, 08:42 PM.
                        Learning Experience: "...one of those things that says, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.”
                        ~Douglas Adams

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                        • #13
                          Given the utter and complete lack of Angel reflecting on what led him to his problems while he and the story desperately try to ignore 99.5% of the dead bodies in that mindset's wake...

                          Given the way he has not altered that mindset (everything in his resurrection story including his threats to Alistair trying to talk him out of it simply repeat it with even less criticism)...

                          Given that time and again in A&F things are turned into Angel being 'right' (after five seconds if criticism Angel is thanked by the man he killed...because otherwise Giles would have been subject to a pact with a demon we had never heard about until they needed a way to excuse Angel having killed a character people cared about (because red shirt deaths aren't given anything like that concern or attention.)
                          While I agree on the lack of Angel reflection, I would say the other redshirts who died are meant to be represented through Nadira. And Eyghon's inclusion in the current story was a nice nod to what the comics are supposed to be a continuation from without screwing with past canon.

                          Whether I or any other reader agrees with the writers that someone's actions while being body-jacked by Eyghon are the same as Angel's actions while under Twi-Lion's direction is obviously up for debate. And Nadira is not out of the story yet, so this may still change. In the A & F book the writers are at least attempting to address Angel's mistakes in S8.

                          The Buffy book has not acknowledged Buffy even made any mistakes, let alone tried to recover her character from them. Her meeting some of her former Slayers and them being mad (off-panel) about the Seed was such a missed opportunity. It doesn't even really make sense since most of the girls did not use magic. Since when does a General run off with the leader of an opposing Army? Even without the space-frack someone forcing Buffy to admit her soft spot for Angel has caused a lot of carnage is sorely needed. Then their is the fact that they are completely ignoring the anger Buffy should feel toward him. It gets even worse if you consider the S8 "betrayal" was apparently Buffy betraying herself, the lack of reflection on that is just as unsettling as the lack of Angel reflection, if not more so.

                          If the consequences for Buffy are just Dawn fading away, what was the point of the other arcs when all the fans knew this would happen years ago? And even then Buffy still hasn't acknowledged culpability yet. And it was either destroy the Seed or hope Red-Eyed Willow could beat back the demons while more bodies piled up. Even Severin says to Xander destroying the Seed was the right choice. The writers don't see a problem with the Buffy's choices, except the choices they ignore.

                          How they intend to do the next Buffy/Angel meeting has me very nervous. It is very unlikely they will have Angel just grovel, so almost anything else he says or does will make him seem like and @ss again, especially if he tries to brush of the damage he did by showing her kid Giles. I could see them ignoring the S8 damage entirely and just focus on Buffy's reaction to her Watcher. If they have Buffy forgive Angel for everything when she sees mini Giles, that would be a pretty terrible writing choice, even if they are sick of fans complaining about how bad the writers screwed up the two leads with the Twilight arc.
                          Last edited by DanSlayer; 30-05-13, 04:42 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Well the problem now would be that Dawn is dying because of the aftermath of Twipocalypse. Though Buffy being Buffy will blame herself and never give a thought that it was a result of Twangel's last 'grand plan'.

                            And, I'm willing to bet that the writing will never, ever make that connection either, so Buffy will probably turn to Angel for comfort, thanking him for bringing BabyGiles back, thus 'fixing' his screw-up. (Goodness knows she's not allowed to be angry over his high-handed, patronizing treatment of her or undermining her both personally and professionally. To quote Mad Men's Don Draper, you'll be amazed by how much this never happened.)
                            Last edited by shipperx; 31-05-13, 12:39 AM.
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                            • #15
                              And, I'm willing to bet that the writing will never, ever make that connection either, so Buffy will probably turn to Angel for comfort, thanking him for bringing BabyGiles back, thus 'fixing' his screw-up.
                              Even if they did the defense probably is that he did start helping the Slayers with his superpowers and Buffy only had to destroy the Seed after TwiLion beat the crap out of Angel, so he had no agency in what led Buffy to break the Seed, so Dawn's problem is *only* Buffy's fault.

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