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  • #16
    The die was cast with regard to the Seed being destroyed back in 8.33-8.34; when or even if Angel was possessed or not after that was moot in that context. Destroying the Seed is and was still the right choice, as there has still yet to be even one shred of Watsonian empirical evidence that there was anything else that could have averted Twilight at that point.

    Buffy's action in destroying the Seed is entirely transparent for fault; which is to say, the consequences of the Seed being broken are laid right at the feet of whomever made it necessary to destroy it. Those really aren't Buffy's feet in a culpable sense, because even if it was 100% within her decision-making control, Buffy couldn't reasonably foresee the harm that would result from sleeping with Angel. Angel, on the other hand not only knew, but intended the harm that result from them sleeping together -- the creation of a new reality that would destroy the old one and all in other than however many 10^N that Angel deemed worthy.

    There is just no sense in which nearly as much, let alone more, responsibility for any of this, lands on Buffy than on Angel.
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    • #17
      Oh I can see that. I'm just saying if someone blamed Angel for what happens to Dawn his defense would probably be that was after TwiLion forced him to follow through with destroying this world, and that he was helping the Slayers prior to the Seed Chamber fight.

      The only other option would be to wait and see if Red-Eyed Willow could have magically finished off all the demons. Kennedy seems to be of the opinion that would have worked. And Willow blames both Buffy and Angel for the loss of the Seed. Spike supports Buffy's choice, Faith thinks it's good the Seed is gone so demons cannot end the world with magic, Xander and Dawn didn't seem to care either way (until the Key thing kicked in), Koh and Illyria seem only focused on what is the most pressing issue-Severin. Apparently his powers kicked in when the Seed broke, but they haven't really explained it clearly enough to know for certain.

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      • #18
        I really do think we have to go back and look at the group shot in the Willow miniseries because I think I found a big clue. In the puzzling group shot showing all the characters *except* Willow are looking at something or someone in THREE different directions.

        I think this is significant because it seems to tie into the questionable theory that there are three time lines in the Buffyverse going on. Buffy was wearing three watches in the Season 8 Twilight arc when she was with Angel after his reveal. But notice...in Season 9 during Willow's miniseries...she swung the Scythe three times in an attempt to fight her way back to her home. In each swipe of that Scythe...Willow may have created the three time lines we see referenced in Season 8.

        Then I took a closer look at the group shot in the next to last Willow miniseries issue. I think it was number 4. In that scene we see a whole group of people in there...but they're framed with their eyes looking in exactly *three* directions. Oz is the nearest of the characters on the far right and he's looking at the *right* side of the frame. Supposedly he's looking at Willow offscreen. Then we have Buffy, Dawn, Faith and the others looking *upwards*...their eyes are clearly framed to look at something or someone way above them. That's the second direction they're looking at. And finally, there's a third direction...and I didn't pay enough attention to see this the first time. But there we have Giles in the group shot as well and when I looked at him closely, I noticed he's looking in yet another direction, only to the *left* side of the panel.

        So there are three groups of people looking at someone in *three* different directions. Either this is yet another case of an inside joke by the writers trying to pull one over overly zealous nitpickers (like myself) into seeing something there when it's not true...or there really may be something to this three time lines theory. And given I've found more references to the three time lines theory I think it needs to get a closer look. The reason I say this now is because I think they're about to pull a fast one in the Season 9 finale.
        Last edited by DorothyFan1; 23-06-13, 02:04 AM.

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        • #19
          * Buffy was glowified into having sex with Angel; she’s not at fault for that other than her still having feelings for Angel before she was TwilightAngel perhaps facilitated the level in which she could be glowified. Until Joss Whedon says otherwise about that situation – he had Spike in 8.40 saying she was “controlled” – I’m going to ignore and/or dismiss all talk, arguments, considerations, etc. that are based on Buffy being mostly or largely responsible for having sex with AngelTwilight.


          * Perhaps Xander was doing bad ‘Big Picture Thinking’ by deciding he’d side with Severin and Simone for the chance to revert time to before the Seed was broken but then not seeming to think of the possible consequences.

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          • #20
            Its been more than a year since I have written anything but as far as this discussion concerns. Lets clarify some facts here, Buffy wasn't controlled or forced into any of the bad decisions she made in season 8, which the consequences are playing out in season 9. Also I find Spike an unreliable source for the glow, given that he wasn't there, didn't know what was Buffy was thinking, least of all if someone was controlling her. Also the whole universe and evolution story still sounds like something made up from a bad fan fiction story, and the person who thinks killing one planet through the act of conception to make another is evolution clearly never took biology, and lets not getting started on the superior vampire prophecy that came out of nowhere.

            If there were any two characters who were in need of a strong reality check as far as big picture thinking, Buffy and Angel were set up for that storyline way back when they both stop showing on the television still years ago now. If Buffy gets all high and mighty with Xander, she has a whole lot responsibility for putting everyone at risk, at the word of a lunatic, who clearly wasn't morally sound(Twangel), least of reliable, and no Buffy didn't have any memory loss so she still risked Angelus. The evolution story came out nowhere and prophecy are not written in stone, a lesson Buffy learned way back in season 1, from the Master who basically told her in Prophecy Girl. Sorry but Buffy doesn't get to the play the naïve martyr that ship sailed in season 2. This in not a hate on Buffy, but I find all the woo is me for Buffy tiring, and since it was considered a self betrayal and a betrayal of everyone that trusted her, Xander isn't some ungrateful friend that betrayed her, unlike Twangel he came clean when it counted, he didn't beat her and everyone else, he's risking his own safety, and part of the reason for the betrayal, is Buffy's betrayal which stems back to season 2, and into Fray when Dark Willow makes the lurk comment for a reason in TOYL, I don't find it comparable to Twangel at all. Twangel is a victim of his own ego, and he should have known better.
            Last edited by tripie7; 18-08-13, 06:53 AM.

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            • #21
              What's Xander's excuse for betraying Willow? It wasn't just Buffy he lied to and doublecrossed. Even if you think Xander was justified to betray Buffy based on her actions in S8, it still doesn't justify deceiving Willow as well. It also doesn’t take into account his own personal need to “act” instead of “watch” which, whilst not his sole motivation, was certainly in the mix as well. It’s far too simple to just handwave Xander’s behaviour away on the account of Buffy’s infamous decision in S8 when he betrayed more people than just Buffy and let his own guilt/frustration about Giles (and Jesse etc) influence his decisions.

              What Xander did certainly isn’t The Worst Thing Ever and it is forgivable. But he doesn’t get a pass for working with the Big Bad’s on the account of Buffy having screwed up last season. His resentment towards Buffy certainly is understandable and for the most part I find his motivations sympathetic (wanting to save Dawn) but he’s still responsible for his own actions. I don’t want to see Xander cast out of the group but I certainly wouldn’t blame the other characters for being upset with him. He was working with Simone and Severin who had already attempted to kill Buffy, he used Buffy’s sacrifice in The Gift as a way of lulling her into trusting him, he allowed Buffy and Willow to fight the Council so their enemy could get safe passage into the Deeper Well, he lied to Willow who isn’t guilty of sleeping with Twangel etc. They're all pretty valid reasons for the other characters to be hurt by what Xander has done.
              Last edited by vampmogs; 18-08-13, 11:30 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                What's Xander's excuse for betraying Willow? It wasn't just Buffy he lied to and doublecrossed. Even if you think Xander was justified to betray Buffy based on her actions in S8, it still doesn't justify deceiving Willow as well. It also doesn’t take into account his own personal need to “act” instead of “watch” which, whilst not his sole motivation, was certainly in the mix as well. It’s far too simple to just handwave Xander’s behaviour away on the account of Buffy’s infamous decision in S8 when he betrayed more people than just Buffy and let his own guilt/frustration about Giles (and Jesse etc) influence his decisions.

                What Xander did certainly isn’t The Worst Thing Ever and it is forgivable. But he doesn’t get a pass for working with the Big Bad’s on the account of Buffy having screwed up last season. His resentment towards Buffy certainly is understandable and for the most part I find his motivations sympathetic (wanting to save Dawn) but he’s still responsible for his own actions. I don’t want to see Xander cast out of the group but I certainly wouldn’t blame the other characters for being upset with him. He was working with Simone and Severin who had already attempted to kill Buffy, he used Buffy’s sacrifice in The Gift as a way of lulling her into trusting him, he allowed Buffy and Willow to fight the Council so their enemy could get safe passage into the Deeper Well, he lied to Willow who isn’t guilty of sleeping with Twangel etc. They're all pretty valid reasons for the other characters to be hurt by what Xander has done.
                Well to be fair at this point both Buffy and Willow have done morally questionable actions, which Xander has forgiven them. If anyone understands Xander's action it would actually be Willow, I think based on her history. It would also be very hypocritical of both them at this point. I'm not saying he hasn't done anything wrong, but at this point all of the original trio has betrayed each other. If Buffy can look past all of Angel's actions in season 8, she a complete hypocrite if she acts like Xander's betrayal is remotely comparable to that, it isn't. Although I never once said they didn't have reasons to feel betrayed, but I think Willow of all people might understand Xander more than anyone in this case. I can understand others being upset, but I also find his actions sympathetic, and a bit more complicated that Xander whats to save his girlfriend and to hell with the danger to the world, its nothing like Twangel's, me get powers, save the world, kill a few people, go to Tonga land with Buffy, were special snowflakes. Also I find it understandable not justifiable, not the really the same thing.
                Last edited by tripie7; 19-08-13, 12:56 AM.

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                • #23
                  All caught up




                  tripie7

                  Lets clarify some facts here, Buffy wasn't controlled or forced into any of the bad decisions she made in season 8,
                  Yes, she was (at least when the glow happens). Spike said she was and Joss Whedon is the one who put those words in Spike’s mouth. Joss has never said otherwise.

                  Also I find Spike an unreliable source for the glow, given that he wasn't there, didn't know what was Buffy was thinking, least of all if someone was controlling her.
                  Aside from Twilight itself, perhaps Whistler, and perhaps Angel, he’s the one who knew the most about the Twilight thing.

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                  * I look at these things from a cost-benefit analysis standpoint. Xander simply isn’t as useful to the fight for Good as Buffy and Willow are, and therefore he gets a lot less leeway.

                  He wasn’t that helpful in BtVS S9 and his main actions risked the entire world.

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