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Willow:Wonderland # 5 Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • Willow:Wonderland # 5 Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

    The first review of Willow # 5 is up from Leyki.Spoilerish

    http://leykimayri.wordpress.com/2013...ayer-season-9/

    I probably won't be able to get my copy tomorrow.Maryland is about to be hit by a big winter storm and at last check they are calling for possible blizzard like condions by tomorrow morning.So it might be a few days before I can get to my comic shop.
    Last edited by BAF; 06-03-13, 02:44 PM.

  • #2
    I read that review and I have one complaint about it...I disagree with the conclusion the writers would have been able to show Willow being useful without powers. The very fact they had to bring back magic defeats that argument. Otherwise we wouldn't have to go through the clunkiness of this season to show why it's necessary to bring it back.

    So we may never know the proof proving otherwise. This means my complaint about Willow being powerless is bad for her character still stands. I do agree that the Buffyverse needs magic for its stories to have any coherence. Take away magic and everything collapses especially in terms of its very purpose for the characters being part of that universe.

    So I say welcome back Willow the witch. That's her identity. Now the only thing missing is getting her to wear Stevie Nicks' top hat and scarves.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DorothyFan1 View Post
      I disagree with the conclusion the writers would have been able to show Willow being useful without powers. The very fact they had to bring back magic defeats that argument. Otherwise we wouldn't have to go through the clunkiness of this season to show why it's necessary to bring it back.
      Wait, so you're saying that the fact that the writers couldn't think of anything else to do with Willow but have her use magic again, proves that the writers wouldn't have been able to show Willow being useful without powers? I'm confused... Are you saying that

      1) since these writers couldn't do it, it's a proof that it's impossible to do?

      or

      2) the writers are not good enough and they couldn't show Willow being useful without powers because they don't know how to do it? In which case: well, duh...
      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

      Comment


      • #4
        Authorial laziness, is what it is. If anyone can't think of a use for Willow without magic, some value in her character, be they audience or author, that's a them problem, not a Willow problem.

        It's just like the "world without magic" -- an idea that promised a lot of interesting potential but that was ultimately abandoned even before it got rightly started.
        sigpic
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        • #5
          Frankly, a lot has been done to keep even Buffy 'unique'.

          The 'verse still probably has over 1000 Slayers and yet now we're left with
          Spoiler:
          perhaps only Buffy, Faith, Simone (if she even counts), Nadira, and maybe Anaheed actually being at all 'active' in slaying.


          Xander and Dawn had become about useless.

          Spike has been denied
          Spoiler:
          Beck, Spider and Co., Morgan, and his bugship


          And Willow wouldn't have been as useful without her magical powers.

          I'll get to the actual Issue when I read it.


          And frankly I've always been far more sympathetic to DorothyFan1 's want of Willow having magic back than I've been of anyone who's okay with Angel continuing to be undusted.

          And that's simply because I've always recognized that unless BtVS became like Seinfeld or Friends or something like that, these characters need actual real power to be useful in the Buffyverse.

          The 'verse could have gone back to BtVS S1 danger or Willow was going to need her magic back to be useful again.

          Comment


          • #6
            If I may dust this old post off

            1-Willow with out Powers can be only as meaningful as Buffy lets her be. In High School she was her confidante and friend but as an adult Buffy has a wide range of people to do that with, particularly because she is now "Out" as the Slayer. She becomes Xander..
            If Buffy chooses to ignore Willow, then Willow is out of the game for the most part.

            2-Willow with Powers. Now Willow *must* be addressed and she can have a direct role in the story if she chooses to. This leads to..

            3-Willow and Buffy as characters. Willow has slowly become co-equal with Buffy in the story line, and a lot of that was personal growth (Tara) and power(Magic). Xander is clearly a "junior partner" in this, and part of that is the role he can play is limited.

            4-If you love the character of Willow, and in fact consider her *crucial* to your interest with the show/comic. The more things that make her interesting make her a bigger part of the story...and...

            5-If you Identify with Willow you see the loss of Magic as a crippling or a clipping of the wings of the character. I see her as sad and the most wounded of the scoobies. She has lost more than anyone since S6.

            Permanent Non Magic Willow seems like a huge step back for the character, in the same way non-Lesbian Willow does. If you have had growth and changes, it feels like ret-conning it.

            1-Non Magic Willow is going to be in the comics/show less
            2-I identify with Willow
            3-The nerd growing powerful is a storyline I can dig.
            4-Take away #3 and it seems somewhat pointless to follow along.

            http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...postcount=2003

            Edited to add..
            I read the Comic....short of Bringing/Mentioning/Hinting/Anything Tara back this is pretty much the best possible outcome. It's a a Willow Ascension story, verifying what DorothyFan1 and others have said about Willow and her role, potential, and character.
            Last edited by drlloyd11; 06-03-13, 09:45 AM. Reason: More info

            Comment


            • #7
              Just read it. So Willow didn't succeed in restoring magic to the world...but only got it back for herself. I'm unsure if this means she's now the Seed or needs to become the new Seed. That wasn't answered.

              Dawn's life is probably now on the line and guess who has to try and save it? So what happens now?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DorothyFan1 View Post
                Just read it. So Willow didn't succeed in restoring magic to the world...but only got it back for herself. I'm unsure if this means she's now the Seed or needs to become the new Seed. That wasn't answered.

                Dawn's life is probably now on the line and guess who has to try and save it? So what happens now?
                So you got what you've been loudly and unrelentingly hand-wringing for since the end of Season 8, and immediately decided it was actually bad news for Willow, because of course you did.

                drlloyd, I don't see how validating DorothyFan's view of Willow could ever be a good thing, since frankly that view of Willow treats her as though she has literally been a waste of narrative space for the entire span of the franchise other than in the specific moments in which she's actually casting a spell.

                This was one of the fairly predictable outcomes to the miniseries, Willow getting her own mojo back up and running so she can make whatever move she'll have to try back home to either restore magic and/or save Dawn without restoring it. As has been noted routinely, Willow getting her magic back on its own already undoes about 2/3rds of all the practical plot-driven effects of breaking the Seed in the first place -- as testimony to just how little effort has been put into building the "magicless world".
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                • #9
                  So is Willow going to go around touching colours into rainbows, taking time out to volunteer for Good Samaritans phone lines and start holding creative inspiration classes? Huh, a clear stepping stone surely if the weight of how much the world was 'suffering' without magic, which was somewhat laboured, is to be believed. The issue was no great surprise, some of the light effects in the art was great but it was pretty dull to be honest. Mini mission accomplished sure, but there was hardly any revelation to any of it that I noticed.

                  The biggest 'wonder' I'm left with is where has she put the scythe in the panels once she is back on Earth?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm pretty disappointed. I've tried to give the series a chance throughout but this is a disappointing end.

                    At first glance, it appears like way too easy and pat a solution for Willow. No ethical dilemma that she needs to resolve on her own about whether the restore the Earth to its prior conditions. Magic just decides that Willow is worthy and showers her with her powers and bequeathing imagination powers. Willow didn't have to figure anything difficult out on how to pragmatically restore power.

                    Although looking ahead, this is all more Kicking Willow's Drama Down the Road i.e. giving her the Frayverse future. I'm now quite confident that this is Willow's future- since the world didn't revert back to its pre-Seed breakage but Willow acquired her other-worldly magic powers and ability to transmit Seed properties. It's a recipe for the worst tendencies of Willow's character and how she's treated by the writers to continue. Willow is further socially isolated as other-worldly powerful in a Seedless world. You know how isolated Willow felt from normalcy in S8? Quintuple it for S10.

                    Willow continues to Do Magic On Demand for everyone (see the cover pages of the Scooby reunion) but takes on all blame for wanting power while everyone who free-rides off her power and insists that she uses her power constantly face no or barely existent moral qualms about whether they're using Willow. Meanwhile, Willow just accepts that she's a miserable selfish piece of crap for doing magic for everyone because she does want the power and her only redeeming explanation for herself is that she "forgave Angel".

                    Willow is told that there's no difference between dark and light magic enough to take responsibility for everything bad she may do while using dark magic while simultaneously, the divide still exists enough that Willow faces incredible stigma for using dark magic or appearing dark even if she's trying for positive results.

                    BTW, from how I see it, everything prior to this issue was either contradictory or a waste of time just designed to feed into Rack's barn burner of a speech (which I like less after reading the issue). Willow's Call To Action by the First Slayer was just ignored as a motive or a goal of Willow's. Willow's time with the A&F crew didn't feed her story, except for Willow claiming some element of OK-ness in her horrible, selfish, piece of shit self by virtue of forgiving *Angel*. Her experience in Quor-Toth blatantly contradicted the "no such thing as dark magic" line here when Quor-Toth's dark energies influenced her to be dark.

                    Willow's earliest days with Rack advanced no plot or understanding. It was just there to give Rack lines about Willow's PETA-like hypocrisy. Willow's sojourn with Aluwyn and the other witches was just there to give Rack an argument that Willow selfishly abandoned her mission in his speech and to fill issues. Willow didn't learn anything there. Nothing that interesting or damaging was reveled about Aluwyn. No new mythology was advanced. The other witches were ultimately place-holders. Willow just had a long-weekend with her lover and thought she was being a little clingy.

                    So but for Rack's speech, Willow could have just decided to leave on her own in 9.05 without the First Slayer dream, gotten to Quor-Toth with Angel's crew, left Angel's crew once she got to Quor-Toth and immediately walked into this Wonderland #5 issue. It would have been a much tighter and consistent story than what we got. Maybe Willow should have seen Faceless Dawn to give her a friend to fight for that but wasn't exactly necessary.

                    I liked Rack's speech more when I thought it was going to be a moral cross-roads for Willow. I think I was still hoping that she'd sit and evaluate what was right and what was wrong. However, it ended up being hot air. Willow just agreed that she sucks and she's a power-hungry piece of shit- which Willow generally feels. She gives herself no benefit of the doubt. However, Willow is still on auto-pilot. Willow still seeks the power- for her own personal aggrandizement, for its unquestionable value in the Buffyverse's dangerous world, because her friends count on her to have it and use it. Nothing there has changed. It's just that Willow feels shame about it. Been there, done that.

                    BTW, to further prove my non-hypocritical bona fides. I was fine with Willow calling Rack a leech because....he *is* a leech. That's different than Spike saying that Nikki didn't love Robin. However, I thought Willow's, "I thought I quashed you" line was revolting. I don't care if Rack's been lying to her this whole time and was using aggressive magic against her and clearly planning to do her harm right now. When you kill someone, you must show *some* repentance regardless of the circumstances.
                    Last edited by Dipstick; 06-03-13, 06:36 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Wow. I thought the long blather I made on wiccan principles and such was very neatly done and really, really concise and gorgeous, in this issue and, especially in noting that “the thing is not the thing itself.”

                      I also thought they “blew by” Willow’s ability with her computer job to show its powers of creativity and connectivity (“it’s maaaagic!” tra la la) after the Seed, to have greater implication in Willow and upon the world. Maybe she would have figured out too soon that she is both black/white magic” and too soon in the confrontation of “imbalance” in what essentially makes us human in the *wrong * segregation of life/death/love as “separate powers.”

                      But they went into this aporia dealio, which pretty much I don’t agree with, and sit down, it’s a long fall: just because of Spike’s one sentence "I am not that man." (Even if the world will toss you "both" in jail). Which is why I said, standing higher on chains is not growth. Why I also got fed up with so much effort to deny “learning.”

                      I loved the book for complete sentences and a bit of clarity “helping people” was done for Willow’s own need to be the focus, (and even entitled to applause) "for being herself" and thus, selfish -I don't slam DOROTHY FAN in what I think Willow herself would agree is her view of her own "identity" and "core purpose."

                      The idea that she might “share the magic” that "everyone" in Buffy world figures out what she did, is the route to the restoration of potential, but each person has to find and use it. It's all within and not "out there." Also, these "9th circle of hells": “it’s not the betrayals, it’s the lost opportunities” This idea is why “magic exists” in Frayville, but still very well can be in decay.

                      About “forgiveness;” That could be anything from Angel’s bitey to the whole sad world for “not recognizing” * they * "have the magic within," there is “one” in black/white magic, but I hope the forgiveness is actually “herself.”

                      And I do see her “death” at both ends of her journey, now seen twice, is the counter to Whistler’s clearly horrific idea on what “balance” looks like. I also kinda hope there is some wild chance for, at least, an undead Giles to exist; (we get his soul and magey self all together and "memory" is a way to have an "undead" as a "real thing.") as an outcome. I don’t want this path to “heaven” to open wide and a world sucking hellmouth to arise to “balance” out all those demons ‘out there’ which is what Whistler really is talking about, even for a reboot, or “saving Willow’s “identity” as the “Faerie Queen”—I fear she is about to do the pure love/sacrifice dealio that I just don’t want to happen, even if it seems to be “Joss’s rule” in some transformation toward the realm of adulthood. I think she is just way too talented and “messy”-interesting for “being a “pure conduit” between “cause and effect”—and if you ever wade through “what I’m on about” you will understand this position is that of “the temptation” and that means the outcome may not be “if/then” linear logic, but a curse.

                      I do think that euphoria “all is love” to mean the reality of the world in romance makes it clear (what is a private world within the world) must be seen as is thoroughly debunked as the “outcome” of what “magic” means.

                      The coven of witches in a fog of love, while Rak is a bag of nightmares, does not mean “God is love” is a romance to debunk. I do agree that love is inseparable from life/death in anything, especially what I identify as “human”—that itself is rather fluid, as I think we are still evolving *because * of our journey to understanding “what that is” in “who am I”—even if myths “show you" the journey to the self/God. It’s not easy being green, let alone God.

                      I am with CHERYL in I adore the “core four.” And Angel. Even if I disagree with Joss. Often.
                      HUGS!
                      sybil
                      Last edited by sybil; 06-03-13, 06:55 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I really couldn't make myself read for detail. This whole miniseries has been bogged down in way too much tachyon pulse from the deflector array about magic bibbledy for me. Believable, coherent exposition has ever been a weakness of Jossian productions.

                        Upshot, Willow has become what was sort of ontologically mocked in Fight Club -- the warm little center the life of this world crowded around. Being the new Seed was always sort of too much to worry about, because apparently being the new Seed is just a declaration that Willow is awesome, that magic on demand is awesome, and that she can be the rainbow, taste the rainbow, etc. She is Willow-flavored skittles.

                        "Don't examine this too closely" -- Donald Bellisario

                        So I won't. Upshot, Willow has her magic, people who pretty much actively dislike the character other than for magic can be happy, people who are craving some deus ex by which the season's crisis can be solved can be happy, so it's all's well and back to our brandy.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

                          Upshot, Willow has become what was sort of ontologically mocked in Fight Club -- the warm little center the life of this world crowded around. Being the new Seed was always sort of too much to worry about, because apparently being the new Seed is just a declaration that Willow is awesome, that magic on demand is awesome, and that she can be the rainbow, taste the rainbow, etc. She is Willow-flavored skittles.

                          "Don't examine this too closely" -- Donald Bellisario
                          Man, you didn't catch that Rack called Willow a miserable, selfish brat who just wants magic for herself and Willow pretty much agreed (except to note that she forgave Angel)? You really weren't reading closely!

                          Plus, I think there's probably a coalition now that Willow will get the Frayverse future now that her humanity is drastically lessened and she has Big Power back but the world is still Seedless. Right now, it feels like people who deny that Willow is headed to the Frayverse are people who read a Faustian story and insist that everything will work out ten pages away from the end.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This series had some really nice artwork but they mythology still left a lot to be desired. We got a lot of vague, ambiguous ideas about how magic works. I guess it was too much to hope for this mini to set down some ground rules about what can and can't be done with magic. I'd really like some concrete mythology and constancy here. I guess Willow is going to go back to being OverPowered and I'll go back to being completely disinterested in her. So is she the Seed now, or what? Also it looks like Rack has gone back to that ambiguous state of implied death where the writers can still retcon him back to life at some point in the future....

                            Although I just thought of a badass sequal to this miniseries. Rack and Willow were foriegn entities in that magical body dimension, maybe instead of being killed by the blood cells, Rack could become a magical virus that infects that entire dimension. Like Agent Smith in the Matrix movies, Rack could corrupt that entire dimension and everything that's connected to magic. Maybe that's why Willow goes dark in the Frayverse, she's trying to fight off Rack's magical infection, but he's slowly force feeding her dark magic from across dimensions. If Willow is the Seed, her act of committing suicide-by-Slayer could be her way of saving the world from Rack's influence. The Seed needed to be broken the first time to cut Earth off from Twilight, maybe the Willow-Seed needs to be killed to cut off the world from Rack who has become a malevolent hellgod. I very much doubt my idea is what's actually gonna happen, but I think it's a cool idea. If Rack has to be retconned back to life, I like the idea that he's become a magical virus that has corrupted the very essence of magic. I think that if done right, Rack as a magical inter-dimensional big bad has the potential to be pretty scary. Also, instead of vampires or zompires, we could get Rackpires!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                              The biggest 'wonder' I'm left with is where has she put the scythe in the panels once she is back on Earth?
                              In the same place Buffy put it in the last panels of TOYL, when she got back from the future

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