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Willow:Wonderland # 5 Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • What was the point of keeping Willow without powers at the start of the season? Do you really need to ask that? Witches losing their powers was essential for the conclusion of season 8 and the start of season 9. Magic-users losing their abilities was just about the only thing that the writers have done right in this whole "world without magic" joke of a story. The Slayers and witches need a legit reason in the story to be pissed at Buffy for breaking the Seed.
    It was this aspect of the story that, in my opinion, was carefully avoided by the writers. Willow's miniseries could have been alot better had it been about her being confronted by angry ex Wiccans who have lost their livelihood as witches because of Buffy's actions last season. It would have been interesting if Willow had been forced to explain why she didn't blame Buffy for what happened or its aftermath even though Willow herself lost those powers. I think it would have been more honest had Willow herself expressed her anger at losing those powers as well. Besides, since Scott Allie calls Willow a "brat"...this would have been justification for showing this in the mini but we never went there.

    As for the two colored rainbow issue...I hope the writers remember from now on to only show two colored rainbows in the Buffyverse since magic is "gone".

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    • Originally posted by DorothyFan1 View Post
      It was this aspect of the story that, in my opinion, was carefully avoided by the writers. Willow's miniseries could have been alot better had it been about her being confronted by angry ex Wiccans who have lost their livelihood as witches because of Buffy's actions last season. It would have been interesting if Willow had been forced to explain why she didn't blame Buffy for what happened or its aftermath even though Willow herself lost those powers. I think it would have been more honest had Willow herself expressed her anger at losing those powers as well. Besides, since Scott Allie calls Willow a "brat"...this would have been justification for showing this in the mini but we never went there.

      As for the two colored rainbow issue...I hope the writers remember from now on to only show two colored rainbows in the Buffyverse since magic is "gone".
      In other words, instead of the story they told....they should have told the story you wanted to see. Presumably with the "angry ex-wiccans" and/or "angry Willow" being a stand-in for your POV?

      DorothyFan, I mean this with all sincerity and respect -- it's time that you consider the very real probability that whatever personal meaning you have attached to magic in the Buffyverse, and to Willow's powers, is not the same meaning that Joss, the other writers, Scott Allie, etc., have attached to magic in the Buffyverse and to Willow's powers, and that whatever they do with magic and Willow's powers in the future will continue to differ greatly from your personal attachements to them.

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      • All caught up




        Vampire in Rug

        * By the definition of stealing , Willow stole the Scythe from Buffy.


        You don't know for sure what the world would be like if Buffy wasn't brought back. Buffy being brought back did have bad consequences, many of which are still being felt.
        Buffy’s the one who killed the ‘Hells Angels’ demons. Even Spike’s priority was simply keeping Dawn safe.

        Ultimately; Buffy being back lead to all the Turok-han dying, Sunnydale being destroyed, and the Hellmouth being closed. With AngelTwilight; for all we know, if Buffy didn’t come back Angel may have simply risked the world to bring Cordelia back.


        * It’s doubtful that Tara or Giles knows more about magic than Willow does.


        * Joyce Summers had been part of “the fight” given she was supporting Buffy, cleaning her bloody clothes, giving her the money that Buffy used to be Slayer clothing and used to buy weapons, etc.


        * Buffy, Xander, and Dawn assumed that Warren Meers could have been turned into the police and therefore he’d go to prison. Mostly, they had a problem with Willow being Dark Willow and that she flayed Warren. Buffy killed Knights of Byzanthium – she doesn’t have a problem with killing humans when she thinks its necessary.


        * The only reason Xander and Dawn are important in BtVS S9 is because they were estranged from Buffy and then Dawn was being negatively affected by the Seed being done.

        ________________________________________________

        * We never hear of anyone else seeing two-colored rainbows, so it seems logical that Willow was simply deluding herself into seeing two-colored rainbows.

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        • In light of the recent events, specifically issue Buffy #24, you could have avoided all of the Willow miniseries issues and we'd literally be back to Willow's original predicament. So what was the purpose of that miniseries?
          Last edited by DorothyFan1; 15-08-13, 09:40 PM.

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          • Originally posted by DorothyFan1 View Post
            So what was the purpose of that miniseries?
            Er, saving the world ? As in 'You have saved this world. There will be magic.' to quote from the Seedling.
            “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

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            • Originally posted by dorotea View Post
              Er, saving the world ? As in 'You have saved this world. There will be magic.' to quote from the Seedling.
              Yeah, really not sure I understand the question either. Willow played for, and got, means by which to restore magic to her dimension. Which was, one might recall, the entire purpose for her journey in the first place.
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              • Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                Yeah, really not sure I understand the question either. Willow played for, and got, means by which to restore magic to her dimension. Which was, one might recall, the entire purpose for her journey in the first place.
                It was claimed magic was part of her "essence". Buffy #24 throws that out the window. Why the switcheroo?

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                • Originally posted by DorothyFan1 View Post
                  It was claimed magic was part of her "essence". Buffy #24 throws that out the window. Why the switcheroo?
                  The "part of your essence" mythology from the Embodiment of Magic was bullcrap. However, it's not inconsistent with Severin having the power to take Willow's powers.

                  Severin drains "essence" powers. Slayer powers, Old One powers- these were all part of folk's essences and basically who they were. However, Severin consistently has the power to take that and thus, change people/demons from who they are.

                  Frankly, the Embodiment of Magic's declaration that Willow's powers are her essence was ridiculous in terms of past canon but fits very nicely with the idea that Severin can take her powers. S1-7 and PARTICULARLY late S8/early S9 canon vaguely indicated that Willow didn't really have essential magic powers so much as some ability to take and manipulate external magic to do magical things.

                  However by hammering home that Willow's powers are essential to her, it puts her much more solidly in the slayer/vampire/Old One class of having power endemic to her person that can be robbed by a Severin.

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                  • 1. Willow had no magic powers at all from the start of this season.

                    2. Willow left San Francisco in the hope she could get magic back. (for Earth *and* herself.)

                    3. By essence it supposedly meant no matter what happens Willow would still have access to magic. This is now patently false.

                    It has to be asked why bother putting Willow through all this just to emphasize she has no magic?

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                    • From what are you drawing this "she has no magic" mess from? She spewed a new Seed from her bosom, literally, that is pretty magical. I saw no dialogue off hand that suggested she wasn't still operating at the same candle-in-the-darkness level she came back from East Phlebotenumton with. All that came up that I saw was that jumpstarting the Seed is what it will take for Willow to be off battery/solar/power saver mode and back on the grid and at full power, more pertinently, Dawn saving power. They have been heavily implying that "new Seed" is probably not enough on its own to save her, she needs genuine healing, or repair, if you will, and it will take Willow at Season 8/Power Cosmic levels to do that.
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                      • Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                        From what are you drawing this "she has no magic" mess from? She spewed a new Seed from her bosom, literally, that is pretty magical. I saw no dialogue off hand that suggested she wasn't still operating at the same candle-in-the-darkness level she came back from East Phlebotenumton with. All that came up that I saw was that jumpstarting the Seed is what it will take for Willow to be off battery/solar/power saver mode and back on the grid and at full power, more pertinently, Dawn saving power. They have been heavily implying that "new Seed" is probably not enough on its own to save her, she needs genuine healing, or repair, if you will, and it will take Willow at Season 8/Power Cosmic levels to do that.
                        Thanks for clarifying the situation but I think this is exactly where I'm getting confused about the issue. It's not made clear whether Willow still has her powers or not. Because if you look at the panel showing Xander asking Willow for some magic she responds that she left it down there.

                        Then there's the curious scene after Willow gave birth to the Seed. The Seed "thanks" her but says it'll take thousands of years for magic to return. Willow is horrified she's just let Buffy down. Then the scene with Illyria is confusing as well. Why does Willow let Illyria convince her to leave and leaving at that knowing she'd be without any magic?

                        So from all this I'd say it's pretty clear Willow has no magic powers anymore. This is why I'm confused about the whole Willow "essence" having magic and now we're seeing she's completely deprived of even this.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DorothyFan1 View Post
                          Why does Willow let Illyria convince her to leave and leaving at that knowing she'd be without any magic?
                          Because you seem to be the only one who's upset about it. Willow at that point doesn't give a crap. She saved the earth, she gave the seed the chance to "grow" faster (in which case her magic will return), and she just wants to take her friends, and herself, and get out of the Deeper Well in order to save their lives.

                          So from all this I'd say it's pretty clear Willow has no magic powers anymore. This is why I'm confused about the whole Willow "essence" having magic and now we're seeing she's completely deprived of even this.
                          Her essence had magic, she gave birth to that essence, creating the newborn seed.

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                          • Giles in "Lessons" (B 7.01) tells Willow that the magics are now part of her. Willow in "Chosen" (B 7.22) became more powerful after doing the Empowerment Spell. BtVS S8 Willow was goddess level of power.

                            BtVS S9: "Willow: Wonderland" seems to imply that a reason Willow was allowed to be so magically powerful is because of Willow's connection to Buffy.

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