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Willow:Wonderland # 5 Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • #91
    Originally posted by DorothyFan1 View Post
    I'm wondering if Willow's return would be the spark that brings Illyria's character back to life and not be so dull.
    Maybe. I certainly hope so. Btw, DF , I think you were right on target with your memory of three wrist watches. Except they were on Buffy who was also wearing the Jenny Sparks shirt ( with British flag). They are going to England (check the British flag) and the upcoming Apocalypses is time- pocalypses - meaning the three wrist watches are all about preserving time line. Meaning the final Easter egg of S8 35 is the ending of S9. (The earlier one was Nikki Wood clothes on Buffy - and the pregnant robot story.)
    “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

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    • #92
      Originally posted by dorotea View Post
      Maybe. I certainly hope so. Btw, DF , I think you were right on target with your memory of three wrist watches. Except they were on Buffy who was also wearing the Jenny Sparks shirt ( with British flag). They are going to England (check the British flag) and the upcoming Apocalypses is time- pocalypses - meaning the three wrist watches are all about preserving time line. Meaning the final Easter egg of S8 35 is the ending of S9. (The earlier one was Nikki Wood clothes on Buffy - and the pregnant robot story.)
      Bingo. I just took a look at that issue again and, wow. There were the three wrist watches. Three time lines. Willow created those three time lines when she used the Scythe to try and open a portal back to her world in her miniseries. Good catch about Buffy's shirt with the British flag on it. It does look like they're going to England...specifically, Scotland, I think. That was Buffy's headquarters and it must be where this "Deeper Well" is located. Catapiller Guy said to Willow in her miniseries "looking for a deeper well?" Your "Easter egg" comment made me look at the issue again and there it was...Spike's ship crashing in at the end of that issue. It was shaped like...a sperm egg! If I'm guessing this right...Buffy had sex with Spike on that spaceship and Buffy may indeed be pregnant.

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      • #93
        All speculation dependent upon treating three watches, three belts, etc as foreshadowing is automatically going to be wrong. At best you'll end up with a coincidence you can rationalize, but the bottom line is no writer worth employing was "foreshadowing" a story that would not be told for almost six years when they drew three watches.

        Just chiming in to clarify a canonical fact, not that it's... really the venue, but the Big Honkin' Castle was in Scotland. The entrance to the Deeper Well is in England, in the Cotswolds, at the opposite end of the island.
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        • #94
          OMG. I just remembered something. In the Willow miniseries one of the slayers in the group image was dead center on the top of all the other characters. She was wearing a hair clip and had red hair. At first I thought it was Amy in the way she was drawn. Then someone recalled it was Vi who sported that hair clip. Now that England is coming back into play here...Vi is from England. We're going to see Vi in the final arc.

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          • #95
            Vi is not from England. Where did you ever get that idea?

            I really don't know why you insist on believing that every panel of every issue is laced with da Vinci codes to unlock the entire plot and foreshadow every development. Certainly history has shown it's pretty much never proven out to have been true. But it can't make it easier for you when you go charging off with incorrect facts, like mistaking the location of the Deeper Well for Scotland or Vi's nationality.
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            • #96
              Well, I'm willing to concede I might have been wrong on that part...but the interesting thing about Vi is where she ended up after the final battle against the First...she headed her own squad in New York. Which in the Frayverse is called Hayden. I know you're going to say it's just a coincidence...and that may be true but there it is. Vi is in New York. I've wondered why they didn't show Satsu in that group image since we've seen more of her than Vi. And yet the writers chose to put Vi in that shot and not Satsu. Putting Anaheed and Simone in that group shot I can understand...since they're part of Season 9's storyline. But why put Vi in there?
              Last edited by DorothyFan1; 24-03-13, 04:19 PM.

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              • #97
                I guess we shall see if the 'bringing back Giles' story will finally surface in Buffy series after Willow's return. And btw, the Deep Well is in England.
                True, the question is how Buffy will find out about Angel trying to bring back Giles? My guess is Spike will tell her. Probably not Willow because she supports the plan and knows how Buffy feels about coming back from the dead. They have to finish the S9 situations before Buffy can do anything about Angel. And Spike seems to be coming back after Willlow, so they can justify delaying Buffy finding out until Spike comes and maybe create tension between Buffy and Willow to carry over into S10.

                I could see them ending S9 with Buffy deciding to go and confront Angel, and than having Issue #1 of the next Angel book come out a month before Buffy S10 starts. To try and get more people to pick up the Angel book to actually see the conversation rather then probably just whatever Buffy says about it when she goes back to San Fran in her own book.

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                • #98
                  But why put Vi in there?
                  Probably because she is Felicia Day, and one of the new Slayers people would recognize, and Vi was one of the few Potentials that people did not really find annoying. Satsu is still pretty controversial.
                  Last edited by DanSlayer; 24-03-13, 05:23 PM.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by DanSlayer View Post
                    True, the question is how Buffy will find out about Angel trying to bring back Giles? My guess is Spike will tell her. Probably not Willow because she supports the plan and knows how Buffy feels about coming back from the dead. They have to finish the S9 situations before Buffy can do anything about Angel. And Spike seems to be coming back after Willlow, so they can justify delaying Buffy finding out until Spike comes and maybe create tension between Buffy and Willow to carry over into S10.

                    I could see them ending S9 with Buffy deciding to go and confront Angel, and than having Issue #1 of the next Angel book come out a month before Buffy S10 starts. To try and get more people to pick up the Angel book to actually see the conversation rather then probably just whatever Buffy says about it when she goes back to San Fran in her own book.
                    You just figured out the plot point for causing the rift between Buffy and Willow. But to be fair to Willow, she had already traveled to England to see Angel and after that stint she went directly into her miniseries. Her justification for not telling Buffy this detail is precisely that - Willow had already left the Earth plane and there was no way for her to contact Buffy. Now for why Willow wouldn't tell Buffy *now* that she's back...well, that's a good question.

                    The obvious answer is the writers need to create tension so the deliberately created this situation to cause friction between Buffy and Willow. Nothing more than that. Now if there was a deeper reason for Willow deciding not to tell Buffy...recall Angel telling Willow he hoped she didn't tell Buffy his plan. Willow's response to that query is she knew Buffy had a lot on her plate and wasn't in any condition to deal. Willow was right on that point but I do agree she shouldn't have made the decision on her own not to warn Buffy about what Angel was doing.

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                    • The obvious answer is the writers need to create tension so the deliberately created this situation to cause friction between Buffy and Willow. Nothing more than that. Now if there was a deeper reason for Willow deciding not to tell Buffy.
                      If Willow does not tell Buffy, Buffy will be pissed-and probably blame it on Willow still not having learned her lesson from S6 about bring people back and abusing magic. This would anger Willow epecially if Willow magically fixes Dawn. Willow could be tired of her friends dumping on her for using magic but then ordering her to use it whenever *they* want a magical solution. This could springboard Willow leaving for her own book and/or increase Buffy's concern that she is going down the path of FDW-they can explore this for our Willow with or without the Buffy book-and perhaps if Dawn does become Portal-Solver, Willow takes Dawn with her after she leaves Xander for some reason.
                      Last edited by DanSlayer; 24-03-13, 06:22 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                        All speculation dependent upon treating three watches, three belts, etc as foreshadowing is automatically going to be wrong. At best you'll end up with a coincidence you can rationalize, but the bottom line is no writer worth employing was "foreshadowing" a story that would not be told for almost six years when they drew three watches.
                        See, normally I would agree with you that picking on individual clothes/nail polish/jewelry/etc designs on every panel looking for 'foreshadowing' is quite pointless and even funny. But I make exclusions for particular cases when the writer or an artist specifically and pointedly mentioned the clothes importance in such and such issue.

                        In the case of Twilight costume for example the three belts were never pointed out and never mentioned - so they are just Jeanty's fancy take on the task. The Mexican Wrestler's mask on other hand was specifically mentioned by Jeanty in an interview as something Joss asked for 'in particular' for Twilight and quite insisted on. Thus as an audience I start scratching my head and looking for references - and bingo! I find them in AtS S5 'The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco' episode. Specifically in the scene in the graveyard between Angel and Numero Cinco.

                        In the case of S8 issue 35 , I am only looking for the foreshadowing clues in Buffy and Angel's clothes in the specific sequence - inside Twilight - because once again I saw at least two interviews by Meltzer and one by Jeanty specifically about that issue and specifically about the importance of clothes while inside Twilight plane. And we have a very good correlation : Mourning Robes - death of Giles, Nikki Wood leather coat and blouse ( specifically mentioned by Meltzer as a fact) - pregnancy plot, three watches and British flag - upcoming visit to England on a quest to stop 'alternative timelines'.

                        As for the writers and six years - see my example of Numero Cinco ( 'in the graveyard in the middle of the night wearing a mask' no less - which is exactly where Angel ends up in Riley one shot/Beautiful Sunset). Joss' plots have very deep roots and he is fond of throwing foreshadowing.

                        And in the case with Meltzer it is only indicative of Joss' much more serious involvement in writing the Twilight arc that is normally acknowledged. Heck, he planned the flying sex adventure since 2007. It is quite reasonable to suspect that they knew the general outline of S9 by the middle of S8 - and that Meltzer knew where it was headed. (Hence he mentioned the Fray-style mutant talking fish in the interview about 34.)

                        But to round all of this up and tie it in with Willows mini - I am not suggesting looking for visual clues in every panel of every issue. I do however find it quite reasonable to assume that multiple Willow's visions through her series have foreshadowing clues. (And the strawberry plant on the cover of #4 was also a foreshadowing.)
                        “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

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                        • I think the "split" is being saved for next season. Besides, we'll get the hints about there being tension between Buffy and Willow over her decision not to reveal Angel's plan to resurrect Giles. And of course, the writers already know what's going to happen next season so it stands to reason that's when it'll happen. So I guess this means the strawberries weren't only hinting about Rack, it may have been hinting about Willow's future as well. But I guess that's why the writers like to tease things to make people wait to find out what happens. But in this case the tease may be about *how* things go down for Willow to end up the way we last saw her in ToYL. I'm still waiting for an explanation for EoM's strange comment to Willow which seems to be a complimentary remark to Future Dark Willow's ominous statement - "It's not who dies. It's who kills them."

                          "Wait. You still have need for this. At times only separation can bring about unity...and we must be destroyed to be made whole."

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                          • "At times only separation can bring about unity...and we must be destroyed to be made whole."
                            Why do I suspect this quote is going to be used as justification for why the Buffy book has felt fragmented and perhaps why Buffy has had the three moods of defensive, dismissive, or detached all season long?

                            I get them wanting to explore the others characters in their own books to give them more room the breathe, and the Willow story could not have just been a sub-plot, but splitting the main characters up like that should not cause such a negative effect on the main title. Dowling has been alright, and maybe could earn real Scooby status down the line, but he hasn't worked for his place alongside the main characters yet, and the Billy thing has been covered. Add to that the fact that Xander and Dawn just aren't in 20% of S9 for no apparent reason-and you can see they have went to far in trying to create a new gang after S8 had almost no lasting new characters.

                            And while I personally thought the Spike mini was OK, and I hope to see Victor and Paul again, I get why a lot of people are saying it felt pointless. I'll have to reserve full judgment on it until I see how Spike reacts to Buffy now. Hoping Buffy will change towards Spike does not seem likely.

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                            • Truthfully, if they had intermixed the Willow miniseries with the Buffy one, or even made them complement each other, that would have been much better for both.

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                              • Originally posted by drlloyd11 View Post
                                Truthfully, if they had intermixed the Willow miniseries with the Buffy one, or even made them complement each other, that would have been much better for both.
                                I'm seriously wondering whether this idea of yours may be what they're planning: Buffy and Willow as separate titles but interacting with characters in *one* storyline using both books to serve the same plot.

                                This would be pretty ambitious. For example, Angel and Spike are brought into Buffy's title but they get to fluidly move from the Buffy comic over into the Willow comic serving the same plot. This is usually possible in the TV realm but I'm not sure this has ever been tried in the comic book world.

                                There are mutliple examples of different versions of the same title serving different "universes" like Superman, Batman, X-Men, etc. But not like this idea with Buffy and Willow serving as bookends to the same storyline per season. Right now you can read Buffy and Angel *independently* of each other and not know what's happening to the other title.

                                This idea suggests a new method: one title per month or several months switching between two titles serving the same storyline.

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