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Buffy S11:Giles # 4 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • Buffy S11:Giles # 4 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

    The final issue of the Giles miniseries and season 11 as a whole is out tomorrow so I'm opening the thread.

  • #2
    A stronger ending then I would have predicted a few months ago. Not sure what the deal was exactly with the two thugs that were linked to Roux but they seem free now which might not be a bad thing. So Roux was unique and if not souled, she at least had a moral compass. They never explicitly said Blue was her descendant though. I guess in the uniqueness being half fried by lightning is enough to do her in. Boarke left after Seed failed, Rioux wanted to kill Truman to protect Blue but Seed took control of him instead, she killed Crowe for attacking Blue and Wong was just an unrelated suicide.


    I actually felt some loss for Giles with Roux here, again more then I'd have expected earlier. He'll keep an eye on Blue instead and is going to try and enjoy life more even if he's still trapped as a teenager. He wasn't re-aged here so those covers for S12 are a totally different thing.
    Last edited by DanSlayer; 23-05-18, 01:59 PM.

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    • #3
      I've just read it.

      Originally posted by DanSlayer View Post
      A stronger ending then I would have predicted a few months ago.
      Not so much IMO.

      Not sure what the deal was exactly with the two thugs that were linked to Roux but they seem free now which might not be a bad thing.
      I think they are not free, they are at the docks waiting for Roux to come back (like a loyal dog).

      So Roux was unique and if not souled, she at least had a moral compass.
      Why was she unique (from the beginning her behavior was different from the average vampire)? Why did her hair turn blue? What about the peaches? Baldwin? No explanation whatsoever.

      They never explicitly said Blue was her descendant though.
      Why did she watch Blue???

      Roux wanted to kill Truman to protect Blue but Seed took control of him instead, she killed Crowe for attacking Blue
      Crowe was an innocent man who was killed because of Blue - I don't think any trouble this girl could have after assaulting a teacher (she got possessed, as many in that school) makes it right for him to lose his life. Neither Truman, who thankfully escaped. And who the hell was Blue, after all?

      I'm disappointed.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Reading it again;

      Roux says that Crowe "was a menace to all the students, but especially to Blue". Why was he a menace?

      And the Sheffield twins didn't have a choice, unlike Giles (says he), so they really will wait for Roux forever. How was Baldwin able to do it? Why did he do it? Was he a sorcerer?

      - - - Updated - - -

      And can Dawn open portals from afar? She can open portal on Earth (it was written on the Vampyr book), but I think she would have to be present in the location, wouldnt she?
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      • #4
        Betta- Aargh...it's not on Amazon yet! I want to read it!
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        • #5
          Originally posted by TriBel View Post
          Betta- Aargh...it's not on Amazon yet! I want to read it!
          It's there already: Giles #4

          And I didn't know that, I always buy on Dark Horse digital, and it's cheaper on Amazon! And it takes ages to be available on the DH app these days.
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          • #6
            Betta - I LOVE YOU! Take this as a proclamation we're engaged! Got it! Seriously, thanks - it's only just come up (I think). I've been searching for it since 2.00 am this morning! *Scuttles off to read*
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            • #7
              Seed had a thing for eating peaches and dogs.

              It implies Crowe was molesting the students.

              Roux was special because Baldwin was a warlock sire.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TriBel View Post
                Betta - I LOVE YOU! Take this as a proclamation we're engaged! Got it! Seriously, thanks - it's only just come up (I think). I've been searching for it since 2.00 am this morning! *Scuttles off to read*


                Originally posted by DanSlayer View Post
                Seed had a thing for eating peaches and dogs.
                And why did Baldwin was hanging around an old peach grove? Just a coincidence, then. Or Alexander likes peaches - and dogs, because they appear in the end walking around, finally free of Seed's preferences.

                It implies Crowe was molesting the students.
                If he was, good riddance to him - but then, Roux should have killed him earlier, because I doubt she was able to watch Blue every minute, every day, and then he could have molested Blue. So, I would have liked more than a "he was a menace" line in the last issue.

                Roux was special because Baldwin was a warlock sire.
                It's what I think, too, but I would like to have seen some development; the only thing we saw Baldwin doing was hovering above Roux when we first met him, and bonding the twins (why???). But was the fact that he was a warlock that made Roux different? Or did he do some magic? To what purpose? Why did he think she was a strong girl? Just 'because'?
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                • #9
                  Betta:
                  Why was she unique (from the beginning her behavior was different from the average vampire)?
                  It could be as Dan Slayer says

                  Roux was special because Baldwin was a warlock sire.
                  but for me, her uniqueness comes from the fact she was a product of the social systems/institutions (Slavery, Capitalism etc) rather than her parents (so different from our other two souled vampires). She's also - I think - a product of black culture (specifically black American writing and music). I think it's this aspect of her "blackness" that gives her the strength to fight back - to resist). Seeing the fault lying with society rather than the individual (who's invariably caught up in the system) would explain why Giles is figured as a "noir" detective rather than a classical one. Sherlock Holmes usually concluded the individual was corrupt - for the hard-boiled detective it was the very fabric of society - particularly its highest echelons - that was evil). It also makes sense because here it would appear to be the system that's making people dumb. People are dumb because society makes them dumb - not because they're inherently flawed - and definitely not because of the colour of their skin.

                  It implies Crowe was molesting the students.
                  Sorry - I can't see that. The reference for me with school and Crow(e) is partly segregation. "No work, no reward" written on the board suggests the ethos "the ideal by which equality of opportunity is available to any American, allowing the highest aspirations and goals to be achieved". The problem seems to be that Crowe failed to recognise it was the system that was making people dumb. "Cry Uncle" seems to have at least two meanings. First - to give up. People surrender to the system - start to believe they're as worthless as the system says they are. I also wonder whether it's a reference to "Uncle Tom". Crowe is a black man who fails to realise the system is failing all students but particularly black students? IDK.

                  I think they are not free, they are at the docks waiting for Roux to come back (like a loyal dog).
                  Is she actually dead? Why does her grave carry the latitude co-ordinates for San Pedro - 33.736061? (Google and me - ).

                  Why do they repeat "If you see something, Say something"? It's a slogan trademarked by The Department of Homeland Security.

                  Why don't I trust Willow? Why did some of the things she said seem ominous?

                  Betta
                  Baldwin doing was hovering above Roux when we first met him, and bonding the twins (why???)
                  I'm not sure whether the Twins represent this - the Double Consciousness. I've copied it from a blog 'cos I'm to lazy to typre it out. If they're not a representation, it feeds in somewhere (I think).

                  "Double consciousness is a concept that Du Bois first explores in 1903 publication, “The Souls of Black Folk”. Double consciousness describes the individual sensation of feeling as though your identity is divided into several parts, making it difficult or impossible to have one unified identity. Du Bois spoke of this within the context of race relations in the United States. He asserted that since American blacks have lived in a society that has historically repressed and devalued them that it has become difficult for them to unify their black identity with their American identity (Edles and Appelrouth 351-352). Double consciousness forces blacks to not only few themselves from their own unique perspective, but to also view themselves as they might be perceived by the outside (read: white) world. This is what Du Bois spoke of in the above passage when he talked about “the sense of looking at one’s self through the eyes of others” (351).

                  As a result, blacks can suffer from a damaged self-image shaped by the perceptions and treatment of white people. Black life in turn can easily become shaped by stereotypes perpetuated by mainstream culture." http://kristindoestheory.umwblogs.or...consciousness/

                  This is the passage from Du Bois she's referring to. TBH, I wasn't sure at one stage whether Blue and Roux were two aspects of the same person.

                  "It is a peculiar sensation, this double-consciousness, this sense of always looking at one's self through the eyes of others, of measuring one's soul by the tape of a world that looks on in amused contempt and pity. One ever feels his twoness, -- an American, a Negro; two souls, two thoughts, two unreconciled strivings; two warring ideals in one dark body, whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder".

                  "dogged strength"?
                  Last edited by TriBel; 23-05-18, 10:43 PM.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TriBel View Post
                    Betta: It could be as Dan Slayer says

                    but for me, her uniqueness comes from the fact she was a product of the social systems/institutions (Slavery, Capitalism etc) rather than her parents (so different from our other two souled vampires). She's also - I think - a product of black culture (specifically black American writing and music). I think it's this aspect of her "blackness" that gives her the strength to fight back - to resist).
                    I'm still quite fond of Roux, I wish she hadn't died, I wanted to see more of her, but this explanation is not enough for me. I understand that the writer may have chosen going that way and why, I get that - but certainly Roux wasn't the only black person to be turned while going through that shameful period of history (and not just America's). So that's not a good reason for Roux's uniqueness.

                    People are dumb because society makes them dumb - not because they're inherently flawed - and definitely not because of the colour of their skin.
                    However, some people are inherently flawed...

                    Sorry - I can't see that. The reference for me with school and Crow(e) is partly segregation. "No work, no reward" written on the board suggests the ethos "the ideal by which equality of opportunity is available to any American, allowing the highest aspirations and goals to be achieved". The problem seems to be that Crowe failed to recognise it was the system that was making people dumb. "Cry Uncle" seems to have at least two meanings. First - to give up. People surrender to the system - start to believe they're as worthless as the system says they are. I also wonder whether it's a reference to "Uncle Tom". Crowe is a black man who fails to realise the system is failing all students but particularly black students? IDK.
                    I agree.

                    Is she actually dead?
                    I would say yes, she is. But her death was... odd. She didn't turn into dust after being electrocuted, she died like a human dies, slowly and painfully. And a grave? It's just symbolic, did Giles buried her ashes, or she didn't turn to dust at all?

                    Why does her grave carry the latitude co-ordinates for San Pedro - 33.736061? (Google and me - ).
                    Good question. For her not to be lost? Forgotten?

                    I'm not sure whether the Twins represent this - the Double Consciousness. I've copied it from a blog 'cos I'm to lazy to typre it out. If they're not a representation, it feeds in somewhere (I think).

                    "Double consciousness is a concept that Du Bois first explores in 1903 publication, “The Souls of Black Folk”. Double consciousness describes the individual sensation of feeling as though your identity is divided into several parts, making it difficult or impossible to have one unified identity.
                    I need to reread the whole thing/Roux in light of this.

                    Baldwin said he bonded the twins to her conscience - for their sins.
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                    • #11
                      I'm still quite fond of Roux, I wish she hadn't died, I wanted to see more of her, but this explanation is not enough for me. I understand that the writer may have chosen going that way and why, I get that - but certainly Roux wasn't the only black person to be turned while going through that shameful period of history (and not just America's). So that's not a good reason for Roux's uniqueness.
                      I agree - I can understand the messages it's putting out and most (some) of the metaphors it's using but I'm having problems reconciling it at a literal level. It's partly why I found Will's phone call "odd". If Will knew Roux was "unique" why not say what made her unique? She mentions Roux’s “nature” – but we don’t KNOW Roux’s nature – except she’s unique (great - we now have three "unique" vampires!). Even Giles questioned the word "nature" (I'd say Roux's nature is to be "divided"). Then Willow mentioned "dark magic". (I'm getting confused about what I've posted, what I've said to Priceless in PMs and what I've simply thought so apologies if I've already posted the following).

                      The "Black Arts" means something different from an African American perspective. It’s an Aesthetic Movement associated with Malcolm X. One of its members was an obscure poet called - Lloyd Addison (I've only seen one photo but he looked a lot like Addy). “If we had not had a Black Arts movement in the sixties we certainly wouldn’t have had national Black literary figures like Henry Louis Gates, Jr., Alice Walker, or Toni Morrison because much more so than the Harlem Renaissance, in which Black artists were always on the leash of white patrons and publishing houses, the Black Arts movement did it for itself. What you had was Black people going out nationally, in mass, saving that we are an independent Black people and this is what we produce.” This quote appears frequently in discussions about the significance of the BAM (just noticed "on the leash" - compare with Giles question "who let the dogs out"?) Are the dogs - fundamentally a good or a bad thing? Are they guarding or attacking? Seed eats dogs. The first dog we see is in a library devoid of books.

                      Baldwin, I'm sure, is a reference to James Baldwin but I don't know enough (can't remember enough) about James Baldwin to second guess (was gay; left America for France; "I am not your Negro" came out last year). The Twins are possibly an extended conceit for "schisms" both within and without black culture male/female poor/rich? Something that's simultaneously an asset and a burden?

                      Roux was "strong"; Blue is "strong". Roux ruminated; Giles ruminated. There are parallels here.

                      Why have the horses gone from Blue’s dress (I think I can guess why)?

                      But her death was... odd. She didn't turn into dust after being electrocuted, she died like a human dies, slowly and painfully. And a grave? It's just symbolic, did Giles buried her ashes, or she didn't turn to dust at all?
                      We know she has an affinity to water and I'm guessing the manner of her death and marking her death has something to do with the diaspora (the countless unnamed slaves who died mid-Atlantic). However, I don't understand it as a vampire death. In addition - we know a) vampires can survive underwater and b) Roux spent 12 years in her first grave c) Spike died twice. I'm guessing Roux is metaphorically "reborn" - her spirit lives on in Giles (she's "turned" Giles) and Blue. However, I'm wondering if they've left the option of bringing her back if need be? Is this a "death is your gift" moment? If there's one thing BtVS is good at it's repetition. :no idea: I need to reread this and the other issues.

                      PS. The full lat/long co-ordinates for San Pedro put you a block away from a church/school called "Mary, Star of the Sea" (I'm presuming it's the parish). I've googled it (I need a life!) because of the Mariology iconography in S7 and it has a picture of the sacred heart emitting rays of blue/red light. I googled that too. (Red = Blood; Blue = Water) There's an explanation here: https://forums.catholic.com/t/blue-l...d-light/102316 The mission statement is "Though We Are Many, We Are One" (LOL! The enjoining spell). I'm finding the whole story behind it intriguing.
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                      • #12
                        I haven't read it yet, but all your posts are so interesting, I'm really looking forward to reading it. This San Pedro thing is intriguing and must mean something important. I hope we do see more of Roux, I'd definitely read a comic devoted just to her. She's one of the most interesting new characters the comics have introduced.

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        I don't know if this means anything, probably not even true, but Wiki tells me;

                        Anthony Head: British actor, best known for roles in Joss Whedon's television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer and on BBC[2] television production of Merlin; owns a home in San Pedro[citation needed]

                        If it's true, it's a weird coincidence don't you think? Maybe it's an in-joke, so Roux can find her way back to 'Giles'

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                          I haven't read it yet, but all your posts are so interesting, I'm really looking forward to reading it. This San Pedro thing is intriguing and must mean something important. I hope we do see more of Roux, I'd definitely read a comic devoted just to her. She's one of the most interesting new characters the comics have introduced.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          I don't know if this means anything, probably not even true, but Wiki tells me;

                          Anthony Head: British actor, best known for roles in Joss Whedon's television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer and on BBC[2] television production of Merlin; owns a home in San Pedro[citation needed]

                          If it's true, it's a weird coincidence don't you think? Maybe it's an in-joke, so Roux can find her way back to 'Giles'
                          LOL! I love it! My problem is - the "weird coincidences" just come thick and fast. The Sacred Heart image I referred to seems to originate with St Faustina (yeh as if I couldn't have fun with that!) - she had a vision or a dream and God told her to paint the patterns she saw (which is what I feel Whedon is asking us to do). Issue one of Giles is full of religious references and Faustina's diary is full of references to "end of days". I've decided Google's nobody's friend - it's designed to do your bloody head in!
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TriBel View Post
                            We know she has an affinity to water and I'm guessing the manner of her death and marking her death has something to do with the diaspora (the countless unnamed slaves who died mid-Atlantic). However, I don't understand it as a vampire death. In addition - we know a) vampires can survive underwater and b) Roux spent 12 years in her first grave c) Spike died twice. I'm guessing Roux is metaphorically "reborn" - her spirit lives on in Giles (she's "turned" Giles) and Blue. However, I'm wondering if they've left the option of bringing her back if need be? Is this a "death is your gift" moment? If there's one thing BtVS is good at it's repetition. :no idea: I need to reread this and the other issues.
                            OK, Roux is definitely NOT dead, she's just hibernating. She says she is tired, and when she's tired, she rests six feet under, she ruminates near water. We didn't see her dust. There's a grave. And more importantly - the Sheffield twins: they are still bond to Roux.

                            Besides... Giles says Roux lives.



                            Last edited by betta; 24-05-18, 05:04 PM.
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                            • #15
                              This miniseries was awful from the first issue to the last. Joss should be embarrassed to have a hand in it. So many things were left unexplained, and I didn’t care about the characters at all. It didn’t feel like a part of the Buffyverse at all, let alone season 11.

                              I can’t overstate how disappointed I was in this book. Not only was it just not a very good Buffyverse story, it was not a good story full stop. It failed on the most basic level of having a clear narrative. Every issue, none of us had any idea what was going on. As a story, it failed the most basic test of the audience being able to follow it. 90% of fanfic was better than this.

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