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Angel S11 # 11 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • Angel S11 # 11 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

    The new issue is out today.

  • #2
    I don't like bashing just for the sake of bashing but honestly this isn't a good issue/series. If the point of leaving the time questions hanging was that they broke time, why set them up at all? It turns most of it into time-wasting filler. They aren't going to cause some time stream universal reset or anything on a scale that would impact the Buffy title. Other then the bit with Kathy and this romance subplot/"humanizing" Illyria there's not much character wise going on and plot wise it seems like it's just going to be a big causation circle. If both plot and character don't amount to much, what's the point of a series?

    I can't help but contrast this with WicDiv, I'm going into my *fourth*reread of the series after an issue that had two giant revelations both rooted in character but also putting new perspectives on the entire previous plot; it's not the medium at fault. I don't want to think they did this entire book just to keep Angel away from the Buffy story but it's starting to look more and more likely.

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    • #3
      I'm assuming everyone else is on the same page as me, regarding how gross the implied Angel/Illyria sex is, with regards to Fred?

      That's Fred's body.

      Fred does her best to tolerate Illyria not because she *wants* her there, but because there is no other choice, may as well try to get along with her in this shitty situation. I'm sure Fred doesn't enjoy having and Old One hijacking her body, but coexistence is her only option other than constantly fighting over the steering wheel. If there was a magic pill that would flush Illyria away forever and give Fred her life back, I've got no doubt Fred would take it, and she'd have every right to since it's her body and Illyria was never welcome to it in the first place.

      Even in season 5 when Fred was dead, if there was some way to trade Illyria's life for Fred's that didn't involve innocent people dying as a result, I'm sure the fang gang would have done so in a heartbeat -at any point during the season.

      Fred had every right to feel creeped out at Angel this issue. The whole thing is so gross, I can only hope a future writer retcons it away someday, or they weasel out in the last issue and say that they only made out or something.

      Illyria hijacking Fred's body is violation of her free will at the best of times, but using her body for sex without her consent is just horrible. Illyria is a soulless demon who likely doesn't care much for Fred's feelings, but Angel should have known better. He himself has been possessed by spirits and made to kiss and feel love, and he felt pretty violated afterwards, and even then he wasn't actually forced into sex with a partner who should have known better.

      Angel is supposed to be Fred's friend, he should absolutely make it a priority to get Fred's consent before he even thinks about doing the nasty with the demon who lives inside her body.

      It's made even worse that Fred was somewhat conscious and aware of the whole thing. If Spike/Illyria or Wesley/Illyria ever actually eventuated into anything, at least Fred was dead at the time which would make her consent a non issue. But Fred being alive and aware inside the body the whole time with Angel... in my eyes that's on par (perhaps even worse) than Faith hijacking Buffy's body and having sex with Riley, or Jasmine hijacking Cordelia's body and having sex with Connor.

      It makes Angel look like a massive creep to say the least.

      And that's before we even get in the the inherent relationship problems that consistently occur whenever a person with a soul tries to date someone without one, which again Angel should know about firsthand. Angel/Darla, Buffy/Spike, Willow/Aluwyn simply did not work when one partner had a soul because they were operating on different moral playing fields. Illyria might try her best to be "good", but she's not a human being. Angel should know that dating her will be bad news. There has always been a pretty clear moral distinction between people with souls, and people without them -even the ones trying to be good like Spike and Harmony. Angel doesn't usually have sex this carelessly either, the gypsy curse was part of the reason Fred's crush couldn't go anywhere in the first place. Nina was a calculated risk to fool W&H and the audience into thinking he might have gone bad.

      But for me, the issue of Fred's consent is the big issue here. For me, Angel sleeping with Illyria while Fred's body just gets... used, is more despicable than him agreeing to become Twilight. At least back in season 8 he (stupidly) thought he was acting for the greater good because the world was at stake, and he was influenced to some ambiguous degree by "the glow" and had Whistler vouching for it -none of those excuses apply here.

      The only way I can see him coming back from *this* is if it gets retconned away or revealed in the future -"lol, we didn't really have sex, Fred is just mad because we kissed". If Angel and Illyria did indeed have sex while Fred was forced to be a passenger, then I don't see how Angel, or his relationship with Fred can ever recover from that. Even if she gives her blessing to Angel to go ahead and date Illyria from this point forward, that still doesn't retroactively make it okay for Angel to just assume she was okay with it or just not care enough to ask her this time around.

      I've always loved how protective Angel was of Fred, and I'm kinda mad that this season sheds that relationship in a new uncomfortable and disturbing light. I might be down for the ride if this season was well written and was going to explore all the fallout and repercussions and questions of consent in an adult way -but we all know that's not on the cards. Either this is going to be swept away as that thing that "just happened" that one time, or Angel/Illyria will become the latest ship and Fred will just have to deal with it.

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      • #4
        Only having looked at preview pages in general, aren't I right that Fred and Illyria neither one is in full control over who is manifest at any given time? I mean, let's game that out for a second huh?
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        • #5
          It's one of those "as the plot demands" type scenarios. This season has been especially bad. Angel needs to talk to Illyria? Too bad, she won't come out. The story needs an exposition dump? Here's Illyria to talk about magical stuff. Or Fred to talk about science stuff.

          The exact how's and why's haven't really been nailed down, I think a lot of it is being made up on the fly. Last season it was exhausting for Fred to maintain control, she was constantly tired. Illyria tends to pop out whenever Fred is in physical danger, and Fred seems to have a general sense of what Illyria is feeling. Last season Illyria was back to her evilish season 5 self until Fred proposed that they try to coexist. No idea why Illyria is so chummy with Angel this season when she was trying to kill him (and Faith and Koh) in season 10.

          I don't think there are any hard and fast rules over who gets to drive, but yeah, neither of them can be in control 100% of the time. In season 10 they were clashing and they were both suffering for it. This season, there seems to be something of a "gentlemans agreement" -each taking turns in the drivers seat, although Illyria seems to tag in and out whenever it suits her.

          I still don't think season 10's sentiment of "we're stuck with each other so let's try to get along" translates into "you can use my body for whatever sexual purpose you want." It's somewhat murky the exact extent the other persona gets to actually "see" when they are in the passenger seat, or how much power they have to re-exert control if they strongly object to what the other person is doing.

          But Fred quite clearly knew about whatever happened in the haystack between Angel and Illyria and she was clearly uncomfortable about it this whole issue.

          Was it just a general sense of what happened, like a foggy dream -or was she actually forced to look through Illyria's eyes in perfect clarity as Angel was getting busy? If she strongly objected, would she be able to push Illyria out of the drivers seat, or is Illyria's willpower too strong when she's "in the mood"? Would there even be much point in trying to wrest control away from Illyria if the sex had already begun, or would it be less traumatic to just retreat into the back of the mind and block as much of it out as possible?

          I think Angel was way out of line to go ahead with... whatever it was that happened, and Fred was in a position where her consent was non-existent and her capacity to object hinged on her ability to fight back against Illyria and that hinges on how aware she actually is at any given moment -which has never been nailed down explicitly.

          Not sure what you mean by "gaming" that out King? You mean establish the rules of who gets to be in control between Fred and Illyria?
          Last edited by Vampire in Rug; 23-11-17, 07:13 PM.

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          • #6
            I just meant to game out, i.e. play out in one's head or discussions, the range of possibilities uncontrolled shifting could yield if Angel and Illyria are sleeping together with Fred as the obligate plus-one. I mean... I'm sure the fic is already available, but this is for want of better content, a canonical work, and we're obliged to consider that Angel could start laying it to Illyria only to look down and there's Fred, right?

            Of course, Buffy fell into the his arms despite his recently -- immediately! -- having been a mass murderer and tormentor, so it's not new ground for this franchise to ignore the implications.
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            • #7
              Can someone please transcribe the issue for me?
              Last edited by illyriafan; 24-11-17, 12:05 AM. Reason: typing mistake

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              • #8
                An issue packed with action, but I still am confused about where it’s coming from, so it’s hard to be much thrilled to where all this are going (although there’s something intriguing in this issue – which can turn out to be just a mistake).

                Why exactly Angel and Fred/Illyria traveled to the past? Aside a feeling Angel had that something horrible would happen soon, and that it would be somewhat linked to something done by him as Angelus, I still don’t see why they went to the past. Have I missed something? Because the whole journey up to now only have made things worst in the present.

                Angel and Fred/Illyria are back in Dublin, and they find the city under attack by a giant plant with giant flowers with many teeth (like the very one Angel saw in his vision in the beginning of the season). Firefighters are bravely trying to cut it off – and miserably failing.

                Besides, Angel and Illyria see themselves discussing about the existence of prophecies (Illyria took them back seconds after they originally had left, not before), and Illyria says the whole dialogue is “completely wrong”, different from the “original” (which happened in issue # 1), which leads her to the conclusion that “the flow of time itself is not what it was”, “anything can happen” and they may “never take the trip” (to the past), which would “be a paradox” (and all of it gives me a headache).

                Anyway, Illyria pulls an Angel: feeling all guilty and broody (I’m only capable of making things worse. Never better.), she decides to take a leave and says farewell to the vampire. Fred is back, and she and Angel have to deal with poltergeists (that are fleeing from the vanished hotel) and the giant flowers that are wreaking havoc. To make things more complicated, Fred realizes Angel – “having walked in that very spot as Liam, Angelus and Angel, and being dead but alive, a vampire but with a soul” – may have caused reality to crack like a mirror, and now it is using a self-correcting mechanism… which brings an attack of really big bugs, coming from a yet bigger crater that suddenly opens in front of them.

                Now, something interesting happens: while the swarm is everywhere, attacking everyone, Angel and Fred get separated from each other for a second; while he joins the fight against the giant plant, she rushes to save a girl who is surrounded by bugs, and pushes her into a car… and looking at the mirror Fred sees Angel in need of help. See, the problem here is that Angel is a vampire, he doesn’t have a reflection. Of course, this could be just a (big) mistake by the writer… however, why bother to write a scene that involves Fred saving a girl and then put both inside a car? It’s like a mirror was needed in the middle of the battle, and the solution found by her was to have Fred inside a car… Note that in a previous panel, we see Angel vamping out, so if something has happened with his vampire nature it has to be when the big crater opened, soon after Fred said that “reality has a self-correcting mechanism”… (Oh, well, maybe it’s just a mistake).

                Angellyria: after Angel and Illyria kissed last month, we see Angel and Fred suspiciously lying on a haystack, but fully clothed and separated of each other. When they awake, Fred is confused and doesn’t feel like talking about what has happened, and soon Illyria is back – and she’s not talking, either. It isn’t clear if they had sex or not (either in this first panel, nor later in another one) and I think it was done on purpose. I personally think they didn’t have sex, which is the better option due to Illyria share Fred’s body…
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                • #9
                  To plot summarize: Angel somehow gets his first vision since LA about the monster flowers and bugs. He thinks it's tied to what he did as Angelus. The flower is actually on a present day street in Dublin. Illyria makes a "rounding error" so we spend an arc in the primordial past where they not only change things and save Averv's species but Illyria meets and has a proper conversation with herself. Primal Illyria throws open another time portal to when Angel actually wanted to go on the ship with the first zombie-making bug. They change things yet again and accidentally infect the whole ship. Angelus and Darla see all 3 of Angel, Fred and Illyria. Somehow, because they spared Illyria's followers from a volcano, a volcano has to go off at the next point, killing all the zombie pirates and bugs. They just dump the evil vamps the next day without even mind wiping them. Fred and Illyria clue into how they are damaging time and want to go home. Angel, thinking he can save his family like Illyria's demons, takes control and takes them to just before his siring. He gets a moment with Kathy but Illyria forces him away so Angelus is still born on schedule. They may or may not have had sex. Back home it looks like they broke time from Issue 1. The monster flower, seen in a tiny form on the Dublin street in the beginning, has grown massive attacking everyone and spitting out bugs (though we haven't seen any zombies yet and these bugs aren't blue like the pirate ship ones). They start fighting it with Fred realizing it's all there fault.

                  So our Big Bad is a generic fanged flower that doesn't even talk. Story looks to be a causation circle in the first place, probably having next issue show Angel sending himself the vision. A slight retread of Illyria and Fred co-existing again though working together whereas last book it was more a battle. Slight closure with Angel and his family. Another humanizing Illyria plot this time with a new shipping. There's a small chance they intend to end this on some sort of cliffhanger but we know this book was made not to interfere with anything on Buffy. Since the last two Buffy books and last year's A & F had "happy endings" I assume this one must as well. I suppose the Giles story could have something but we know he comes back to the Scoobies at the end and it's only 4 issues so leaving some sort of peril with a new supporting character is unlikely. And Giles was originally supposed to start months ago so Angel was the intended wrap up to S11 in the first place.
                  Last edited by DanSlayer; 26-11-17, 09:29 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by betta View Post
                    Now, something interesting happens: while the swarm is everywhere, attacking everyone, Angel and Fred get separated from each other for a second; while he joins the fight against the giant plant, she rushes to save a girl who is surrounded by bugs, and pushes her into a car… and looking at the mirror Fred sees Angel in need of help. See, the problem here is that Angel is a vampire, he doesn’t have a reflection. Of course, this could be just a (big) mistake by the writer… however, why bother to write a scene that involves Fred saving a girl and then put both inside a car? It’s like a mirror was needed in the middle of the battle, and the solution found by her was to have Fred inside a car… Note that in a previous panel, we see Angel vamping out, so if something has happened with his vampire nature it has to be when the big crater opened, soon after Fred said that “reality has a self-correcting mechanism”… (Oh, well, maybe it’s just a mistake).
                    That is interesting. You're probably right that it was just a mistake, but if they intend to pull the two books together for a season a change like this could prompt it. It would have a huge impact on many characters and, as much as I loathe love triangles, it would bring something up that would rock the boat with Buffy/Spike. I'm not saying in a 'Buffy falls into Angel's arms IWRY style' type way, but Spike's issues with being monstrous within still and all those times being in the light come up time and again for him would clearly be potential triggered if Angel gained some aspect of humanity back. Alternatively, it could be a ripple effect for whatever reason of having gone as far back as times of The Old Ones which actually has changed vampires generally so it affects all of the species and not just Angel.

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                    • #11
                      I don't think seeing Angel's reflection is a mistake, because Fred mentions mirrors prior to that. She also talks about how unusual Angel is, being dead and alive, a vampire but souled and about 'reality self-correcting', which I hope means that Liam, Angelus and Angel are all being reset into one. Angel will be become an amalgam of all parts of himself; a human souled vampire

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                        I don't think seeing Angel's reflection is a mistake, because Fred mentions mirrors prior to that. She also talks about how unusual Angel is, being dead and alive, a vampire but souled and about 'reality self-correcting', which I hope means that Liam, Angelus and Angel are all being reset into one. Angel will be become an amalgam of all parts of himself; a human souled vampire
                        I haven't read the season yet but a development like that would be impactful. If this is the way they go on it will it be Angel specific because he is the one who has been travelling in time or do you think it will be an alteration to reality which will affect Spike too, as another souled vamp? That could prompt a crossover straight away for the start of S12 if Angel is having to come to talk to Spike or if it is just him, coming to tell them what has happened to him.

                        The season will certainly be more interesting to me if there is a major shift from it, even if I am still likely to feel it is poorly written.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Stoney View Post

                          That is interesting. You're probably right that it was just a mistake, but if they intend to pull the two books together for a season a change like this could prompt it. It would have a huge impact on many characters and, as much as I loathe love triangles, it would bring something up that would rock the boat with Buffy/Spike. I'm not saying in a 'Buffy falls into Angel's arms IWRY style' type way, but Spike's issues with being monstrous within still and all those times being in the light come up time and again for him would clearly be potential triggered if Angel gained some aspect of humanity back.
                          And it could put to rest forever the idea that if Angel was human/free of the curse, Buffy would leave everything and everyone behind to be with him...

                          Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                          I don't think seeing Angel's reflection is a mistake, because Fred mentions mirrors prior to that. She also talks about how unusual Angel is, being dead and alive, a vampire but souled and about 'reality self-correcting', which I hope means that Liam, Angelus and Angel are all being reset into one. Angel will be become an amalgam of all parts of himself; a human souled vampire
                          Yeah, Fred saving a girl and going into a car was such a nonsensical scene; it has to have been done for a purpose. And Fred says the problem is Angel, with his many incarnations. Besides, there's the bit about prophecies, which makes me think of the Shanshu, although I don't see the end of the world, only maybe, the end of Dublin...

                          Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                          I haven't read the season yet but a development like that would be impactful. If this is the way they go on it will it be Angel specific because he is the one who has been travelling in time or do you think it will be an alteration to reality which will affect Spike too, as another souled vamp? That could prompt a crossover straight away for the start of S12 if Angel is having to come to talk to Spike or if it is just him, coming to tell them what has happened to him.
                          No, I believe nothing that comes to happen in Angel will have any impact on BtVS . Of course, Angel could go to SF, and then we could have some drama in the Spuffy camp (with Angel taking the brush off for Captain Peroxide again in the end).

                          Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                          The season will certainly be more interesting to me if there is a major shift from it, even if I am still likely to feel it is poorly written.
                          Oh, yes. I would reread it from the beginning with a whole new perpective.
                          Last edited by betta; 27-11-17, 06:44 PM.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by illyriafan View Post
                            Can someone please transcribe the issue for me?
                            @illyriafan Sorry for the delay... and bad English.

                            Angel and Fred wake up side by side, lying on a haystack; they are fully clothed. Angel wants to talk about what happened, but Fred doesn't, the subject is uncomfortable to her and she thinks they should focus on saving the world. Illyria returns.

                            Illyria takes them back to the present Dublin. The city is a mess, police cars everywhere and helicopters on the sky. Illyria says all this is odd, since she has returned them just few seconds after they left. They walk on the street, and end up near the alley where they saw that mysterious little flower – and they see themselves looking at it. Fred is talking about prophecies (how can they be explained?), Angel says he remembers the conversation but there is something off, and Illyria says that it's more then off, it's wrong:

                            ILLYRIA: I was precise. But if the flow of time itself is not what it was, I can't be relied upon either. Angel, if that is the case, anything might happen. Anything at all. If we don't fix this, we'll never take the trip we just took. And that is a paradox.

                            Illyria says she is only capable of making things worse, never better, and says farewell to Angel. Fred returns, and again Angel tries to talk about what happened the night before, and again Fred refuses, saying they have to save the world first.

                            Walking on the street, a poltergeist passes through Angel, which is odd, because, even if the hotel vanished, they should stay put in place. Soon they arrive at the source of the chaos: a giant plant, with many flower,s with many mouths, and many teeth. Firefighters and the police are fighting it, to no avail.

                            Angel and Fred join the fight, with little success. Fred says that maybe is their fault all that is happening:

                            FRED: You're dead, but alive, vampire, but with a soul... and probably walked on this exact spot as three different people: Liam, Angelus and Angel. Different but the same. And then you went and met your former self, so there are memories of your future self... maybe it's a bit too much for reality to bear and it kind of cracked like a mirror...

                            Fred can't finish what she's saying: suddenly, a crater opens before them, and a swarm of insects start pouring, and more of the plant, too. Fred says that maybe the reality has an auto-correcting mechanism...

                            While Angel stay put, Fred rushes to save a girl from a swarm, and they both get into a car. Through the mirror, Fred sees Angel and says she needs to go to help him.

                            Fred runs to Angel, trows him an ax, but the more Angel cuts the plant, the more flowers grow from it. Fred says they are making things worse.
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