Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Buffy S11 #12 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
    * Is Buffy immortal now?
    Um, no. Why would you take that idea from this issue?

    Is Spike not going to be creeped out when Buffy starts literally looking like his mother?
    They'll cross that bridge when they come to it. Seeing Buffy in her elderly years is not something we, the audience will ever have to worry about.

    Is the flash-forward from AtF not going to happen i.e. Spike's being alive in the time of flying cars?
    Well considering the flash-forwards in AtF were only possible futures, even in the context of AtF, nothing is set in stone. Several of Angel's flash forwards contradicted each other because they were only ever *possible* futures.

    And Dark Horse is certainly not going to be picking up IDW plot threads.

    So no, Spike is not guaranteed to be alive in the time of flying cars.

    Moreover, ANGEL IS STILL ALIVE!! It's very unlikely that Drusilla has caused enough death and damage since "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) to outweigh all the death and damage Angel caused in Season 8.
    You need to get over your hatred for Angel, or at least stop bringing it up every single thread. He'a a title character -they aren't going to kill him.

    The time when it would have been appropriate to kill him would have been at the end of season 8, and Buffy opted not to. Isn't "Buffy wants him alive" your justification for all the times she should have killed Spike over the years?

    Since season 8, Angel has saved the world at least once, and has saved countless individual lives too. Drusilla on the other hand, has never saved the world (although she did contribute to almost ending it once), and over the course of seasons 9, 10 and 11 (and probably 6, 7, 8 and AtF) has murdered countless people.

    Also, the scoobies just straight up like Angel more than Drusilla.

    Did Angel cause a greater number of deaths in season 8 than Drusilla has caused since then? Who knows, we never got any real stats. 200 Slayers were killed, but beyond that we have no idea how many people -if any, died in the global natural disasters that happened during the Twilight apocalypse.

    The dragon attack in San Francisco had greater social and political ramifications than the Twilight apocalypse. I'm pretty sure I remember the word "thousands" being tossed around in regards to the dragon attack. Then there was the town that was false flag genocided.

    Everyone acts like the Twilight apocalypse is this mortal sin that Angel's character can never recover from, but how exactly is almost ending the world via Twilight any worse than almost ending it via Acathla? Or Willow almost burning the planet to a cinder. Or the three times I can think of where Illyria tried to cleanse the world of humanity?
    Dracula is an ally of the Scoobies even after the stuff in BtVS S10.
    He was an enemy in seasons 5, TotV, an ally in season 8 and he betrayed them in season 10. He pulled the exact same shit D'Hoffryn was executed for. How exactly is he more of an ally than Angel?

    I continue to find it troubling that some posters continue to want those like Harmony Kendall and Drusilla to die but are relatively fine with Angel's continuing to be alive.
    I continue to find it troubling how you need to turn every single thread into "why isn't Angel dead yet".

    And even if we concede that Angel deserves to die for his crimes, or that Drusilla's crimes are less severe, why does that have to translate into Drusilla deserving not to die? OJ Simpson got away with murder, does that mean I should get away with all my crimes that are less severe than murder? Do you think that shit will fly with the cop who pulls me over for using my phone while speeding and on drugs? "But officer, OJ didn't get punished, so I continue to find it disturbing that you think I should be punished."

    How do Angel's crimes have any bearing whatsoever on whether Dru or Harmony should be punished?

    In addition, Drusilla is one of the most popular characters in the Buffyverse. Why kill her off?
    For the drama that can be mined from Spike/Angel/Buffy/Faith's reaction to it? To show that a named character from the show can still die?

    If she doesn't end up with Spike, the best solution is to try to make her good or simply reunite her with her family in heaven.
    Redeeming Drusilla is fanfiction tier stuff. Not every villian should get a redemption. Not every popular character should get a happy ending.

    If Drusilla were dusted, who knows how theology in the Buffyverse works. Maybe her human soul would finally leave the ether and get to be with her family.

    In any case, the comics are probably selling below 20K including all digital and TPBs. The millions of Buffy/Spike fans did not buy BtVS S10 and did not buy BtVS S11 even though Buffy and Spike were more together than ever. Angel's still alive and that been the biggest issue since BtVS 8.40.
    I'd say the current comics are selling less thanks to the subpar writing, and the availability of digital comics and piracy, and the general boredom of a story that has been going on for over a decade. Killing Angel wouldn't magically make numbers jump back to 2007 levels.

    I maintain that most of post-BtVS 8.40 should be scrapped and that's very likely the sentiment of most of the BtVS S8 readers who don't also want Angel's being Twilight to be scrapped.
    If you think the readership is dwindling now, your idea to completely scrap everything post 8.40 would be hilarious. It would be the fastest drop in readership the Buffyverse comics have ever seen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Originally posted by MikeB View Post

    Edit: The reality is that it doesn't make much sense in-Buffyverse that Spike didn't go back to Buffy in AtS s5.
    Since it doesn't make sense *to you* that Spike didn't go back to Buffy in AtS season 5, does that make AtS season 5 non-canon?
    Last edited by Vampire in Rug; 26-10-17, 06:08 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      I only brought up Drusilla because I was thinking of her as a potential Big Bad who somehow lures Spike and Angel back into her circle. Seeing the fanged four again (well, fanged three - perhaps Vicki could join in?) would be interesting - and a nice parody of the togetherness of the Scoobs at the end of Season 12. More background on their adventures and past life would be great - I'm just not getting enough from Angel Season 11. A journey back to the time of Nikki Wood or another unknown incident from Angel, Spike and Drusilla's past could also be a catalyst for something interesting - Archaeus was not.

      Also, whatever happened to Willow and Xander's parents? They loomed pretty big over the series in a sense though we rarely saw them. A tiny bit of info about Uncle Rory would be welcome - maybe even a subplot if Dawn and Xander decide to marry. An exciting subplot for Willow would be great as well - unless it hammers on the same failed relationship theme and underlines once again that Tara's never going to be replaced.

      I think that Angel also needs to come back into the Buffy comic to shake things up. Also bring back Wesley (not a ghost) or Cordelia, please - if Fred and Spike can return from the dead, then surely one of them can. And whatever happened to Gunn???? Or Connor? Or Wood? We saw them briefly and then no more. And what became of Amy the rat and skinless Warren?

      As for Buffy aging, I've always thought that it would be a simple thing for Willow to throw an eternal glamour on both of them - Spike can appear to be aging to the outside world and Buffy herself - and Buffy would always look young and appealing to Spike. This is a magical world, after all. Or perhaps Spike loves Buffy so much that he'd want to see her age as a sign of her humanity and how his connection to her allows him to see himself as something other than a monster - something he's spoken of several times in the comic. He also seems to unconsciously (or consciously) hope for a possibly of being a real boy at this stage - hence his idle wish while looking at the Vampyr Book.

      I think that Dawn and Xander having a kid in the next season would shake things up a bit - it would give the story real stakes so it wasn't constantly drifting.

      Comment


      • #18
        I've essentially only been glancing through the BtVS S11 Issues; I haven't bothered getting the AtS S11 Issues for some time now.

        The only highlight is the artwork. Dawn looks in her mid-20s and Buffy and Co. looks in their 30s.

        It is beyond bizarre that BtVS S11 ends on Buffy's telling Spike she loves him, that's been more than obvious since "Lessons" (B 7.01) at-latest. Something much better and much more fitting given the obvious family dynamics of the barbecue scene would be something like "Let's get married."

        It is also bizarre that Buffy would give back power to those who wouldn't be members of Buffy and Co. Buffy's giving power to Faith makes sense simply because Faith is the real Slayer and Faith continues to function as a Slayer. The others? Most betrayed Buffy. It'd be far better for Buffy to keep all the power same as it would be far better for Willow to keep the Seedling inside of Willow.

        Frankly, if giving the power back was a goal of the comics, it would make sense for the United Nations or whoever to fund a Buffy and Co. operation and things go back to BtVS S8 status sans Angel's being alive.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Stoney View Post
          As usual I've only had my first read through and I'd actually like to look back again at the scene between Buffy and Jordan in particular. I feel I need to really have a think through the huge number of messages over power/responsibility in this season. Obviously the fear of the power of others, the abuse of power are there. The experience of having lost power that feels a natural part of you shown with both Buffy and Willow in the season and then the dragon. But also stolen power, both with Wise from the dragon and supernatural creatures, but also then for differing reasons in Buffy's draw of the slayer powers and in Willow's drain of the other wiccans too. Jordan talked of Buffy having shared the power originally but Faith also told her to use 'their' power when fighting Wise. The whole mix of what is natural, what is shared, what is taken, what is abused, what is deserved, how it is a burden and how it is a gift draws from so many places across the series I really want to reread and consider all that this season covered and how it adds in. And although she may not be gone for good, I actually liked that Calliope possibly just doesn't want to opt back into that world. It seems right that not everyone would after the experience they had. It contrasted against how Jordan et al responded. I liked the moment when they were empowered again where there was a pause to see if they were going to leave calmly. I would welcome seeing Jordan's character return, one of the best originals we've had I think.
          I think they ended up incoherent on this subject in a lot of ways. I think the meat of the problem is that with all this back and forth, the Slayer power is no longer a metaphor for anything. I mean, the throughline all the way up to and through Season 8 stayed with the idea of power and actualization for women in particular in a world of trial and danger and even oppression. "Chosen" obviously was set around universalizing that power to something more than just a special one; in Season 8 it was about backlash of that power finding expression. Now it's just... power, supernatural phlebotenum by which enemies are defeated. So having it turned on or off doesn't really stand for anything anymore, at least not that the story can functionally articulate.

          The final group meet on the roof brought us full circle of course in the season to where they started and I like getting these little builds of the lives they are leading together. A great family feel to it and with Buffy feeling so much more at ease in herself after all that the season brought. And of course we have the ILY again. It was pretty expected, especially with that link back to him stopping her saying it when they were in camp, but coming just at a relaxed, undramatic moment, stated/accepted in a really straight forward, loving moment just felt very right for where we have been seeing the Spike/Buffy relationship get to. I have really enjoyed having time away from intense focus on relationship angst and it being more about the situations they are facing. Plus there is plenty of scope for continuing relationship developments that focus on individual issues being explored. These guys may be together for some time yet and that is more than fine with me.
          I like the scene overall, but it was couched in an overall triteness of resolution. I wish maybe there'd been a bit more uncertainty hanging over... something. Kirsten Dunst's MJ staring pensively out the window as the last beat of "Spider-Man 2" was one of the best endings of any superhero movie precisely because there was something to make you not only look ahead to what might be next, but to really scrutinize the meaning of what had come before.

          I found the food comment from Spike a bit awkward and wondered if Gage was trying to add the previous reference in S10 (I think it was) where Spike made a similar comment in response to the suggestion of going out for food. This seemed less out of step with what the series showed if you add in the viewer knowledge that he liked spicy foods as they would add stronger flavours, but it still felt a bit odd and a little clunky for continuity without that. Perhaps this is going somewhere in the future as again his need for blood and her helping him feed was a part of it all again (as it had been in camp). There is still scope for the blast of magic he had having altered/affected him somehow. But perhaps that feels a little too convenient for change to come from. We'll see, when and if we get a S12.
          Season 11 has been pathologically incapable of not expositing. See my prior comment about Xander and "soldier training". We already know Spike has an appetite for something other than blood, have known for nearly two decades, it didn't take further explanation that he might just like the taste of something without it providing nourishment as such.

          Originally posted by Francy View Post
          Sorry for butting in, I haven't written on the forum in forever, but I have been reading the threads. I'm not reading the comics, because I'm not into comic books, so I don't feel like spending money on something I'm not too keen about. However, I have been keeping up as much as I can, reading online reviews and discussions and looking at any scan of the panels I could find, so I feel I can comment.

          I'm very happy with were Spike and Buffy are now (even though I always wish we could have seen it on the actual tv show, which would have made a whole lotta difference). It's the natural progression/destination for their characters and their relationship, at least for how I understand them. BUT (there's always a but) while I'm as big a Spuffy shipper as they come and I would therefore be exstatic to agree with a thing of evil's assessment that Bangel Is Dead †, I wouldn't bet on it (not even a cent). I selfishly would wish for nothing else, but imo as long as the Buffyverse is alive in some form, the door will never be closed definitely on either ship.

          Right now it's Spuffy's turn to shine (and it was about time, if you ask me, since they were never allowed to have a proper relationship on the show), but I can't let myself hope for even one second that it's gonna stay that way forever. So, as a Spuffy shipper I'm not about to sing "na na na na, we won!!!!! Take that Bangel fiends!" anytime soon, and I honestly think you guys shouldn't despair. We don't know how long these comics will continue, and with a fantasy series like Buffy anything can happen any minute. And Bangel rearing its ugly head again is more likely than many other options!!

          I just don't see TPTB as willing to close the door for good on the whole "who's Buffy going to end up with?" or "Angel or Spike?" questions. I don't dare to believe. If they do, I'll be very surprised.

          Well, this is me, trying to console a Bangel shipper. Stranger things have happened, I believe.
          I don't think they have "won", because unless this iteration of the Buffy canon is coming to an end entirely, they'll need to shuffle the deck again at some point. Boringly, that will probably mean Angel to Spike to Angel to Spike and back ad infinitum. I'm glad Spuffy fans are having the joy of it. As one of the last few sentimental Buffy/Xander fans, I still think ruefully back to the promise of "The Long Way Home".

          Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
          I had the same thoughts about this issue that I had about the last few issues. It was okay.

          Nothing mind blowing happened, kinda felt like they were ticking off a bunch of things to wrap up. As I predicted, Wise got eaten by the dragon.

          We didn't get any answers to some of the oh-so adult and political questions raised in the first few issues. Is it okay to indiscriminately kill vampires/some demons again?

          Looks like Vicky is about to kill some guys, I guess that blood is on Buffy's hands.

          Buffy re-activated that Chosen spell. So that means undoing it last issue was completely pointless. She didn't show any sort of new skills or powers in her battle against Ms. Wise that she couldn't have done as normal-Slayer-Buffy.

          Kinda lame that Faith got re-activated separately and offscreen. What was the point of that, why couldn't she get activated again along with Jordan, Satsu and the others? The activation spell should be an all-or-nothing thing.
          I assume Vicki's inclusion was to illustrate that vampires are hunting in secret again, that Buffy will still have challenges. I didn't, and really still don't, scrutinize it as a question of Buffy being culpable or not.

          One of the least realistic things here? That the program ended. Ronald Reagan rightly and pithily observed "nothing lasts longer than a temporary government program". Government programs in general are harder to kill than Rasputin-as-Dracula. I saw no exposition suggesting Wise was out and out mindcontrolling all this, so all the same bureaucratic wheels continue to turn, all the rationale used to justify the decisions still exist vis a vis vampires and other demons and even witches. There is no way it would just stop. The Seed of Wonder is more believable. Indeed, it would be the best impetus for the supernatural world to go to ground again, but I think they needed to go farther.

          We needed to rub some Willow on it -- a spell, a cloaking of some kind, maybe even a damn near Connor-spell level button to encourage people's skepticism or forgetfulness. Maybe we can apply the Hellmouth rationale that Giles gave back in "The Harvest", but that leaves the Harmony problem. Really, kill her. She is a known murderer, her outing of vampires objectively caused the world more harm than good, and she may be one of the last things that really would keep people from convincing themselves that all this stuff was just a meme of some kind, a joke, a fad or trend, a prank. Is it too "Angel" for this title? Ask Lindsay McDonald, right? Just. kill. her.

          I really would like to see Spike/Dru meet again in canon but I think the only potential angst they could go to there would be if she is getting dusted or they are arguing about looking to do so, which would work well to do following this season I think. As Spike turned away from Dru in S5, it would be odd for her to manage to create relationship angst just by being there I think. But yeah, whilst the ily too made me smile I did wonder if this meant they would go for a season more on the angst front next, assuming there is one.
          I don't think it matters if they meet again. Would rather there just be ambiguous non-resolution than "Spike kills his demons literally as well as figuratively" or some plot armor nonsense where she lives. In fact, reading this thought made me contemplate that if this title had kept up the with the capricious narrative sensibilities of the current age in which seemingly natural outcomes to long-running storylines are flipped over on their head in tragic ways -- the "Game of Thrones", "Walking Dead", "Breaking Bad" of it, etc -- that meeting would take place but Dru would be the one to kill Spike. And I don't think anyone would want that. But for the same time, the certainty that you wouldn't even need to worry about it, makes me rather the meeting just not happen at all. Does that make sense?

          I think we were led to think that there had been some debate about whether, with what had happened at the camp (and possibly also with Simone in S9), they were going to give the powers back to all the other slayers. But they wouldn't have had any doubt they were going to return it to Faith.
          Honestly, the storytelling has felt a little bit like a DM changing his campaign's details on the fly based on the approval or skepticism of the players.

          I wonder if the scythe's potential for being targeted as an item of power to be taken will be raised, or ignored like the Vampyr book is now.
          The more we forget the Vampyr book ever got turned into the joke it got turned into, the better.

          Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
          In short, I'd only want Drusilla back in BtVS if it's serious business, relationship-ending stuff. I wouldn't want her to show up, cause some surface level angst and jealously, only for it to end in an affirmation of the Buffy/Spike ship, while Drusilla is allowed to walk away.
          All of this. If Drusilla showed up now that the cat is rainbowing fully, it would better feel like the damned highest stakes stuff we've seen with her since Season 2 of "Angel". It should feel very concerning someone might die and not feel a foregone conclusion that would be Dru.

          Agreed. We should have seen something that benifited Buffy by keeping Vicky alive. I still don't get what the point was of Vicky not killing the people of that town. The false flag didn't make a lick of sense. It also completely went against the mythology when Buffy allowed Vicky to live when they had that confrontation under the bridge. I still cringe when I remember Buffy saying "if you didn't kill those people then you're not my enemy" or words to that effect. What about the people she's already killed, or people she may kill in the future? If Holden Webster or ressurected Darla didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt, then why did Vicky?

          And as we've seen in this issue, Vicky is looking to kill again. What happened about the truce they declared with the New Vampires? Can they be killed on sight or not?
          ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

          That's where we're left on such things. It seemed obvious the story was trying to circle the wagons around the world having a Shadow component again, a secret world that Slayer(s) and their allies can protect us from, but you can't just pretend we didn't get all jacked up on stuff.
          sigpic
          Banner by LRae12

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
            I can see some possible angst being mined from the story if Dru shows up, and Buffy wants to dust her for commiting some kind of attrocity (although I'd argue that Buffy could justify dusting her just for being there), and Spike instead wants to see her redeemed or rehabilitated. I think there is some potential for some real drama there, but I'd only want it if the writers were willing to go all-in, which we've seen over the last few seasons they prefer to play it safe. I'd want to see Spike and Buffy come to blows over Dru, with Buffy saying she's a lost cause, and Spike refusing to believe it because of his own redemption journey. Bring in Wood for maximum angst, and let Buffy see Spike's nastier side. Bring up Kendra. I'd want a situation where the audience thinks Buffy and Spike are willing to fight to the death over this. And I'd want a conclusion that doesn't end with Drusilla somehow slipping away again.

            In short, I'd only want Drusilla back in BtVS if it's serious business, relationship-ending stuff. I wouldn't want her to show up, cause some surface level angst and jealously, only for it to end in an affirmation of the Buffy/Spike ship, while Drusilla is allowed to walk away.
            Yes it could be interesting but it would have to feel like there was some weight in there above all. I found Dru's appearances in Angel very underwhelming for what it explored in her relationship with Angel, showed us about him, about her or gave to the story.

            I don't think there is one set way that Dru coming to BtVS could be made good. It doesn't have to put cliched strain on the relationship in jealousies and misunderstanding. It could cause Spike emotional angst he has to deal with which by default puts Spike/Buffy under some pressure. Real life relationships have ups/downs from dealing with the wider context and I've liked that this season gave some of that. The relationship can be strained, tested, explored without cheesy romance angst as the only focus and way of doing that.

            It would be pretty predictable really if you think about it to go down the route of Spike/Buffy fighting over Dru's potential for redemption and getting believably close to breaking up over that. Predictable can be pretty boring even if it is done well. Pretty much as King says (and it did make sense King), bothering to go down a route leading to predictable responses makes you just wish for them not to go there at all.

            So I'd hope if they do bring in Dru that they go somewhere more unexpected that really explores some interesting aspect of the characters and/or their relationships rather than the romance angle. Why not have Willow raise the issue of ensouling her and explore the questions around that and see both Spike and Buffy's response to it. Have Buffy dust her to stop her hurting Spike, Xander, Willow or, better still, Dawn and see the mixed emotional responses to that. There is such history there and so many related story points in the soul and Spike's remaining issues over being a monster that a jealousy or more surface level disagreement pulling them apart would feel like a waste.

            But yes, to doing something worthwhile if they do and definitely yes to not just letting Dru remain a totally static character that keeps walking off stage left, that got silly a good while back.

            Agreed. We should have seen something that benifited Buffy by keeping Vicky alive. I still don't get what the point was of Vicky not killing the people of that town. The false flag didn't make a lick of sense.
            I think it was really unnecessary. It felt like it was supposed to be the big reveal that the Government weren't just doing this purely out of fear of the supernatural and with good intent, that there was corruption in there. But that was already very obvious. Not only in that it was very predictable, but the whole machine building to store the power made it damned clear that was where it was going.

            It also completely went against the mythology when Buffy allowed Vicky to live when they had that confrontation under the bridge. I still cringe when I remember Buffy saying "if you didn't kill those people then you're not my enemy" or words to that effect. What about the people she's already killed, or people she may kill in the future? If Holden Webster or ressurected Darla didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt, then why did Vicky?
            Well it isn't like it is unprecedented for Buffy to let a soulless vampire go because of a past history with them or because of a temporary alliance. I think the enemy thing was badly phrased in that it was just about the current threat. The new vampires/old vampires are not trusted still and are seen as distinct I believe. Yes dustable still rather than seen to deserve rehabilitation/jury by peers etc (like the demon in camp that didn't back down), but allowed to live alongside if they play nice. Assumed innocent until seen not to be but not trusted and watched with caution perhaps.

            That's the explanation we were told, not shown. Buffy throwing a car at her or something would have helped establish that yes, these increased Slayer powers are a big deal.
            I'm not sure I agree with that. In the last issue Buffy before the spell was getting nowhere and was worried and saying so. Wise had been throwing her around like a rag doll, blasting them with magic that bowled them over. Willow was fending her off but then she had to go and deal with the Shenlong before it wrecked the coast again. Once powered up, in contrast, Buffy cut through Wise's magic and then used the scythe to stand and deflect the blasts, enduring magical bullets and healing from them basically instantly as well as being able to stay standing and move forward against the magic. I think they showed there was a meaningful difference between her before/after.

            As it is, the issue could have easily been rewritten to not include the Slayer reversal spell. Just have Buffy and Faith both distract Wise while Willow fetches the dragon. It's not like being a turbo-Slayer actually beat Wise.
            No it didn't, but it did delay her and it did stop her just distracting Willow with the Shenlong and wiping out the others easily once Willow was forced to go and deal with that.

            "But the purple energy blast would have incinerated Buffy if she was still a normal Slayer." Not if the writers didn't want it to, it wouldn't. Magic is always conveniently as strong as the writers need it to be. Spike survived the blast not because Buffy blocked part of it, not because he's an aged vampire with higher resistance but because he's a Named Character that the writers won't kill. The blast would have killed any random vampire, but because Spike is important, he just received superficial wounds. The blast would have superficially injured Buffy whether she was a turbo-Slayer, regular Slayer or even a depowered human.
            Of course you can argue that but by default Buffy powering up, after getting nowhere, and being able to withstand those attacks and deflect the blast mostly off Spike did support that she needed that extra power to be able to do so. Yes Spike survived because they didn't want to kill him off but that is like saying that Buffy only beat all the big bads each season because she is the protag and she was always going to win. Well, yes, but we can dismiss all of it as being a nonsense and not being necessary if you go down the route of dismissing anything that led to the predictable result of the good guys winning.

            If they'd shown the purple blast to open Buffy's guts, then she stuffs them back in her belly before she heals up like Wolverine, then yeah, I'd say the Slayer depowerment spell was narratively shown to be useful. Maybe during the fight she could have flashbacks to other Slayers, both past and present and use different signature moves that other Slayers have used to face off against whichever creatures power Ms. Wise was tapping into? Because it would have been cooler if Ms. Wise used a variety of supernatural powers instead of purple energy blasts and armour.
            She survived the magical bullets when first powered up and it was very much presented as being possible because of the increase in healing ability. Then Spike is burnt, grounded and needs helping out by Faith. And we saw that was through taking on only a partial blast. But Buffy is getting partially burnt, is deflecting the blast head on and is still moving forwards into it. No they weren't gory or particularly visual about it, but the comparison gave weight to what she was enduring/managing. I think what you are asking for is on the page personally.

            I do get what you are saying in the comparison to fighting Adam but there was some of that I think in Buffy cutting through the magic after being powered. Wise was being presented as a witch/cyborg and Buffy's extra power with the scythe was in her fighting magic, something before only Willow as another witch was able to do. The unearned power which was stolen and being used against others for personal gain was both Wise and Jordan and it was taken off them both. How power is used and Buffy's choice, despite feeling that she could get used to the uber-slayer feeling, to give it back was the whole power pinnacle of the season.

            Well, I think so anyway. As I said before, I feel I need to look back and think over the power/responsibility aspects of the season. I keep thinking back to the weight of the scythe Buffy felt when unpowered, that missing connection being mourned and then later restored. How that weight links with the responsibility of the role, the abuse of power and the sharing of it again with the note of an overseer to it now. There's a lot to unpick on this side I think.

            Of course they'd give it back to Faith. I just find it a little weird that Buffy and Willow can re-empower the Slayers on an individual basis. Like, in Chosen, they didn't choose to empower only the girls in the Hellmouth, they empowered every Potential Slayer because that's just how the spell works. Likewise, last issue they drained every single Slayer -even if it would have been better to let Faith keep her powers, because that's how the spell (apparently) worked.

            In this issue, it was mentioned they they'd given Faith her powers back -individually, offscreen which has never been a thing before.
            Yeah I get you on this and there is no denying that the spell boundaries have shifted and changed. I'll just fanwank that Willow has worked out additional ways to control and adapt the spell as she has gotten used to it and used to using the scythe. That they are looking to handle things outside of a blanket approach is narratively justified by the differing attitudes of the slayers they have been dealing with I think. Yes it would be good if a point was made that in cases they know where the power is being corrupted or is causing distress they are going to deal with it individually. The way has been paved for that from Buffy's warning to Jordan so we'll have to see if it gets dropped like the Vampyr book and magic council, if we get a S12.

            Now, when Buffy and Willow gave Jordan and her crew her powers back, it presumably included all the former Slayers worldwide. Satsu, Leah, Kennedy, Nadira and probably Billy's mental connection to the Slayerline (as stupid as that is). If it was within their power to do so, Buffy and Willow should have excluded Dana from that list because she's crazy and denying her superpowers is better for the safety of everyone around her. But they didn't exclude Dana, because (in addition to the writers and editors probably not even remembering her) the Slayer activation spell isan all-or-nothing thing.
            Well it was an all or nothing thing, now it doesn't appear to still be so. Surely we can accept that Willow can work out additional variances to it or think of different angles to take at later stages/for separate occasions. Her magical ability is justifiably always evolving and quite simply what didn't occur to her five years ago may now, from her greater experience and wider knowledge. I don't think this is too difficult a thing to run with generally, although a small number of panels to have Willow considering the possibilities would certainly not have gone amiss.

            Faith was gonna get her powers back anyway when Jordan showed up this issue. Why screw with the mythology further by suggesting that Willlow and Buffy can re-ignite the Slayers individually?
            Things can't be too rigid though. The characters would never change if we didn't allow things to adapt and vary. The mythology introduces new aspects and details all the time. The idea that the scythe can be used on a more specific basis is an interesting development. I can't see why it can't be accepted as such, but it would be good if the knowledge of it goes somewhere further. Perhaps something to ask Gage about, if you haven't already and the Q&A is still open.
            Last edited by Stoney; 27-10-17, 12:04 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by KingofCretins
              I assume Vicki's inclusion was to illustrate that vampires are hunting in secret again, that Buffy will still have challenges. I didn't, and really still don't, scrutinize it as a question of Buffy being culpable or not.
              She was always going to kill Holden Webster, or the "peaceful" looking vampire in the casket in Help, or the poor bastard who got his foot stuck in Help, or Richard the lovely vampire from Lies my Parents Told Me. It was never a question of what they threatened to do, or anything like that. They were on Buffy's hit list the moment they woke up as vampires. She even says to Holden that she needed to kill him because he "might" go kill a bunch of people. There was no way Holden could promise he'd be good, or demand a chance to prove his innocence or any other nice-sounding shit that might fly with an actual person. Buffy killed these vampires because of what they "might" (ie. almost certainly) would do if they were allowed to walk free, and Buffy knows that it would be on her conscience the vampires went free and people died as a result. Giles asked her if she'd allow Richard to walk away and kill a bunch of people if it meant saving the world, and Buffy said yes, but it would take an exceptional circumstance for her to allow that to happen, because the blood of Richard or Holden's victims would be on her hands for allowing them to live when she could have stopped them.

              I can think of three separate occasions off the top of my head where Buffy could have killed Vicki, but didn't. By all means, let her live in season 10 when she's rallying the vampire society against D'Hoffryn. Let Spike live when he's crucial in saving Giles and helping stop Acathla. But what was the excuse for letting Vicki live after their confrontation under the bridge this season?

              Why would Buffy kill Holden to keep her hands clean of his potential victims, but somehow she's blameless for the people Vicki killed?

              Originally posted by Stoney
              Well it isn't like it is unprecedented for Buffy to let a soulless vampire go because of a past history with them or because of a temporary alliance.
              A lot of the time, the soulless vampires from the show escaped through a handy sewer grate or ran away and we weren't really supposed to wonder why Buffy didn't make more of an effort to chase them down. I feel this is different because Buffy explicitly tells Vicki to leave, with her blessing. And after that, Vicki doesn't help Buffy defeat the big bad in any meaningful way, then she goes on to kill some people. I don't think we've ever seen this with Spike, Drusilla or Harmony. Yes, we have to ignore why Buffy didn't chase them down, but she's never actively disengaged from a fight with them and told them to go on their way.

              I think the enemy thing was badly phrased in that it was just about the current threat. The new vampires/old vampires are not trusted still and are seen as distinct I believe. Yes dustable still rather than seen to deserve rehabilitation/jury by peers etc (like the demon in camp that didn't back down), but allowed to live alongside if they play nice. Assumed innocent until seen not to be but not trusted and watched with caution perhaps.
              When and why exactly did this presumed innocence start? In the words of Gunn, do we just not kill them anymore?

              I'm not sure I agree with that. In the last issue Buffy before the spell was getting nowhere and was worried and saying so. Wise had been throwing her around like a rag doll, blasting them with magic that bowled them over. Willow was fending her off but then she had to go and deal with the Shenlong before it wrecked the coast again. Once powered up, in contrast, Buffy cut through Wise's magic and then used the scythe to stand and deflect the blasts, enduring magical bullets and healing from them basically instantly as well as being able to stay standing and move forward against the magic. I think they showed there was a meaningful difference between her before/after.
              The ability to cut through magic is pretty vague and subjective. We've seen so many generic energy beams of varying strength over the series, that it's hard for me to give a crap that Buffy can suddenly cut through the purple variety after she's been powered up. The magical bullets, I'll give you that, -that seems like it was supposed to be a lethal attack that Buffy was able to shrug off. I think we needed to see more stuff like that to make it worthwhile. Who's to say that narratively, Buffy couldn't have just cut through the purple magic after getting a pep talk or seeing a loved one in danger? The upper hand in a fight shifts all the time. I guess at the end of the day it's a personal thing, but for me, I'd have liked to see more gore and violence in the fight for it to justify reversing the Slayer spell. Or Buffy having flashbacks and using the signature moves of literally thousands of Slayers to turn it around. As it stands, I don't think the story justified why exactly that was necessary, aside from the magic bullets.

              Of course you can argue that but by default Buffy powering up, after getting nowhere, and being able to withstand those attacks and deflect the blast mostly off Spike did support that she needed that extra power to be able to do so. Yes Spike survived because they didn't want to kill him off but that is like saying that Buffy only beat all the big bads each season because she is the protag and she was always going to win. Well, yes, but we can dismiss all of it as being a nonsense and not being necessary if you go down the route of dismissing anything that led to the predictable result of the good guys winning.
              Of course Buffy is going to win by virtue of being the protagonist. But for the Chosen spell to be undone so casually, I guess I needed more in-story justification. With the enjoining spell against Adam, we saw, why her upgrade was absolutely necessary to beat him. I feel we got a real sense of why Buffy needed the hammer to fight Glory, or the scythe to fight Caleb. I don't think "Buffy can cut through purple magic now" is a good enough justification, for me at least, when she could have hypothetically done that after a pep talk because magic is whatever the writers find convenient at the time. Now if Buffy had stuffed her intestines back inside herself and kept fighting, then yeah, I can see why the combined healing of a thousand Slayers was absolutely necessary for that fight. Same if they'd been tossing cars around or whatnot.

              And I don't see why Spike surviving a blast to the face from Ms. Wise at full force would be any different to Angel surviving a blast from Nash and Pearl, because again, magic is whatever the writers want it to be. A random vamp would be dust, but Angel, Spike or even Harmony would just suffer burns. Buffy blocking the brunt of the blast was only important because we were told it was.

              Yeah I get you on this and there is no denying that the spell boundaries have shifted and changed. I'll just fanwank that Willow has worked out additional ways to control and adapt the spell as she has gotten used to it and used to using the scythe. That they are looking to handle things outside of a blanket approach is narratively justified by the differing attitudes of the slayers they have been dealing with I think. Yes it would be good if a point was made that in cases they know where the power is being corrupted or is causing distress they are going to deal with it individually.

              [...]

              Well it was an all or nothing thing, now it doesn't appear to still be so. Surely we can accept that Willow can work out additional variances to it or think of different angles to take at later stages/for separate occasions. Her magical ability is justifiably always evolving and quite simply what didn't occur to her five years ago may now, from her greater experience and wider knowledge. I don't think this is too difficult a thing to run with generally, although a small number of panels to have Willow considering the possibilities would certainly not have gone amiss.

              [...]

              Things can't be too rigid though. The characters would never change if we didn't allow things to adapt and vary. The mythology introduces new aspects and details all the time. The idea that the scythe can be used on a more specific basis is an interesting development.
              As you said, a few panels explaining that Willow has further refined that spell would have gone a long way.

              I guess I don't like just has casually Willow undid the Slayer spell, how it made no sense whatsoever in regards to Faith, and then she redid the spell just as casually and now its up to the fans to fanwank ways that she's refined the spell by giving Faith her powers back early. I feel that they just didn't justify enough of it in the story, and they treated the whole thing way too casually. At the end of season 7, it was supposedly the most powerful spell Willow had ever performed. Kennedy needed to be there just in case Willow turned dark in the process. In season 8, they had to deal with the fact that they *changed the world*. Now it's just an on/off switch.

              And we've now got to deal with the fact that any antagonistic Slayers from here on out should be able to be easily de-powered. In season 8, Toru invested millions of dollars to create a new technology to be able to do that, and he needed a witch with a comparable power level to Willow. Now Willow can do it just by holding the scythe and emitting a glow, no technology required -it's way too convenient, and undermines what a threat Toru's crew was due to their money and resources.

              I also feel like New Magic should have been a good chance to nerf Willow's powers and make things more grounded. Because I'd imagine learning to utilise the new variety of magic would be like learning a whole new language. Some of Willow's magical knowledge from seasons 2 - 8 would translate over and give her a foundation to learn the new stuff, but a lot of that knowledge would be redundant and useless. Anyone's knowledge of New Magic would only date back as far as late season 9. Maybe casting a fireball needs a whole new incantation, one that's not second nature to Willow yet. Remember how she accidentally summoned that bouquet of flowers in Qor'Toth because the magic in the atmosphere was unfamiliar to her? If anything, the Slayer activation spell should be even harder for her than it was before.

              Also, wasn't Buffy sharing her power in the first place one of the requirements for Twilight to rear its head? Now they've just done that again, aren't they worried at all they they may have sent the Cat another invite to invade Earth?
              Last edited by Vampire in Rug; 27-10-17, 08:41 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Sorry to interrupt a serious discussion, but...

                Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                * Is Buffy immortal now? Is Spike not going to be creeped out when Buffy starts literally looking like his mother?
                ...this made me think of this scene from What We Do in the Shadows:

                Spoiler:


                You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Faith losing her powers made zero sense, I'd agree whole heartedly with that. I don't know on the other stuff ViR, I guess it doesn't bother me as much or I'm happy to see some of it as natural changes and shifts. I do see/agree that it could have been covered better and justified better, I just don't think it falls apart totally under scrutiny and the fanwank is easy to come to. Faith's depowering aside really.

                  I agree very much about Willow's power though. The new magic would have been a nice opportunity to dial it back a bit.

                  Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                  ...this made me think of this scene from What We Do in the Shadows:

                  Spoiler:


                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Full Slayalive Christos Gage Q/A for Buffy # 12.

                    http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...-Christos-Gage

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X