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Angel S11 # 9 Issue Discussion Thread.(Full Spoilers)

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  • Angel S11 # 9 Issue Discussion Thread.(Full Spoilers)

    The issue is out tomorrow so I'm opening a thread.

  • #2
    Why are Fred and Angel constantly bitching at each other? I forget, what was the point of the time travel trip if Illyria is going to keep pestering him to return to the present? It's not like they learned anything significant from this trip. Super lazy how they got rid of Darla and Angelus. They fell through a portal into a field somewhere, really?

    Angel meeting his father was the most interesting part of this issue. That has some real potential in the hands of a better writer.

    Isn't Angel concerned that preventing himself from becoming a vampire will wipe Connor from existence in addition to having god knows what other affects on the future? Why is Illyria going along with this when she was dead set against Severin preventing his girlfriend from being sired?


    • #3
      Yeah I haven't been feeling this book all season and this did not help. They don't even have the foresight to mind-wipe Angelus & Darla to avoid the timey-why-me questions that they've presented? Just dump them in a field a day later? So are we supposed to believe this random vision that started this while thing is the paradox in the first place. What are even the stakes? Overbite flower and the zombie bugs? The hotel disintegrated and Merv's species is alive... OK? Is that really all they changed?

      There's typically 3 ways to do a time travel story:

      1. Change things. This is your most common one, Back to the Future style alter things in the past and go to an altered proper time for yourself after the adventure is over.

      2. Whatever Happened, Happened. You can go up or down the street but can't make a new street or change the route. This is the Lost method. The timeline is set in stone, the effects of you going back are always the same even before you go back. Daniel goes to the island in 2004 in his late 20s. Time travels back to 1974 and is stuck there. By 1977 he is physically 30 and is killed by his own pregnant mother; realizing his whole life was just one big loop, she knew before he was even born that she did kill him from her perspective, and will kill him from his perspective. There's nothing she could do to change that ever.

      3. The many realities approach. You can go back and change things but you wink out of your original timeline and create another world where you can change things. Your home timeline still continues; you may or may not be able to go back but your home time is unchanged either way. This is the rarer form and off the top of my head DragonBall Z/Super is the only one I can think of that did this.

      They aren't doing 3 as it's too complicated, Merv disproves Whatever Happened, Happened but we don't know enough about what the threat is to actually say if they're making things better or worse. Worse based off solicits.

      The character voices are off as well and I guess other then Fred/Illyria learning to co-exist I'm not sure what character growth we're supposed to see. The Buffy book has clear stakes and I know what the character investments for Buffy, Willow and Spike have been. Honestly they should either combine the casts next book or peel Angel back to a quarterly so it can have some proper depth and momentum in a larger volume they have time to craft.
      Last edited by DanSlayer; 30-09-17, 03:09 PM.


      • #4
        I wonder how much their wish to have Faith appear in BtVS to give her approval for the depowering influenced Angel and Fred going off alone this season. It was better that it was Faith as she has that established relationship with them and would voice up if she had issues with their plans. I can't see having felt as sure the time pressure/situation required drastic action with just another random slayer or Kennedy taking that role. I'm not sure Kennedy would have agreed no matter the circumstances!

        Didn't Corinne make a comment at the Q&A that was vague in a 'perhaps different timelines are being created, up to you' level which was deeply frustrating. Mostly because a) the writer should know what they are writing and which answer is applicable and b) because there have been direct effects I believe evidenced in the demon one of the aunts is dating.

        I've kept an eye on this book from people's comments because I will buy the trades and I hope it will read better in one go complete. But I have hated the switching that is so constant between Fred/Illyria that has been seen in the previews and I think the voicing is terrible. Angel not(?) considering at all the knock on effects of his choices isn't totally out of character but when his decision could result in other people ceasing to exist, yeah, really there should be more open exploration going on. It isn't just his direct blood either in Connor and Spike, but Buffy as well. Surely in the same situation you would think of the times your presence positively affected those you care for too. It just sounds so weak and I'm surprised at the lack of coherency in this season for the book. It is hard to believe it will all just come together well.
        Last edited by Stoney; 30-09-17, 06:15 AM.


        • #5
          Originally posted by Stoney View Post
          I wonder how much their wish to have Faith appear in BtVS to give her approval for the depowering influenced Angel and Fred going off alone this season. It was better that it was Faith as she has that established relationship with them and would voice up if she had issues with their plans. I can't see having felt as sure the time pressure/situation required drastic action with just another random slayer or Kennedy taking that role. I'm not sure Kennedy would have agreed no matter the circumstances!
          Corinna Bechko ,gave comments in her two slayalive Q/A's that gave me the impression that this Angel series was mainly done to create a reason for Angel not to crossover this season which right from the beginning felt very artificial and forced to me.Basically the wrong reasons to do a series.

          Here are Corinna Bechko various comments from the two Q/A's

          1. Bamph: Welcome to the Buffyverse Corinna. How did you come about writing the Season 11 series for Angel and what was the early process for you in the development of this season's story?

          Corinna Bechko: Thank you! I was contacted last year by Freddye at Dark Horse, who edits the series. I have done a bit of work for Dark Horse in the past (I co-wrote a couple of arcs of Star Wars: Legacy with Gabriel Hardman and wrote a Lara Croft miniseries, as well as a few other things) but this is my first foray into the Buffyverse. The early process consisted mostly of reading and rereading every single comic that had come before this season and rewatching the shows. There were also marching orders about what direction the story should take and some ideas from Joss Whedon and Dark Horse, but those were quite general. We then had some back-and-forth until a final story outline was settled on by all of us.

          3. Bamph: Hi Corinna. How much say do you have in what time periods we visit in Season 11? You mentioned that there were marching orders from on high in your previous Q&A, so I was wondering if the time periods were part of those marching orders or something you came up with?

          CSB: I love that they left that part to me. I was just given the broad mandate that time travel should be involved, and then I worked with my editor to decide exactly what that should mean, and of course everything was cleared to make certain that it would work with what was planned for the wider family of stories (especially that it wouldn't conflict with what was happening concurrently with Buffy).

          10. Vampire in Rug: Will this season touch on the Shanshu prophecy at all? We haven't heard any development on that front since "After the Fall" (the canonical IDW story).

          CSB: I hope it's not too spoilery to say that I was told to not go too near any IDW-era plot points.

          11. Betta: Can you tell us if there is a special reason for Angel and Fred be away from present London this season or it was just a plot choice?

          CSB: Actually, I believe it has to do with what's going on with Buffy, but I don't know if I should get more specific than that.

          I will admit that I have been very disappointed with this season(I'll give my full thoughts once the season concludes).And a big reason,is that this season felt very artificial and forced.Like it was only done to keep Angel from making a appearance in Buffy's book and addressing this storyline.And the comments in the Q/A I think prove that.

          They needed to come up with a contrived reason for Angel not to crossover even when something this major was going on in Buffy's world and a reason that would still allow Faith to crossover hence doing time travel so he won't be around.That's also why I don't think anything major will come out of Angel's story in season 11.The whole story was done from the beginning as a time killer just so they could have a Angel book and one that kept time away from the events going on in Buffy.Which IMO is the wrong reason to do a story.

          So Angel season 11 was starting from the wrong foot right from the beginning,again IMO.

          And as much as I might of liked to see Angel show up for a crossover in season 11 to get another prespective on what was going on in the U.S. and because he has people he cares about being effected by this and I don't juat mean Buffy and the Scoobies but Gunn and Connor,especially Connor.if they didn't want Angel to appear in the the story,than just come up with a in-story reason that Angel isn't coming over.They could of done a small one or two panel sequence with Buffy or one of the other Scoobies on the phone with Angel when things go to hell with the U.S. government basically telling Angel it is too dangerous for him to come over and wouldn't help under the current conditions in the U.S. It would be better if he stays in London and be advailable if/when needed{and if they didn't want show a sequence of Buffy or someone talking to Angel they could mention Buffy spoke with Angel on the phone with just one of two lines of dialog).They basically gave a in-story reason with Giles and Andrew(and were even going to give Giles a miniseries during this period had Joss not got too busy).

          Some in-story explanation to keep Angel out of the U.S.and BTVS would of been preferable over doing a entire season of Angel.I would rather have no season of a Angel related book than a bad and pointless one with a forced scenario just to keep Angel out of BTVS this year(no matter what you thought of the Angel & Faith series in season 10,I do think it had a point that tied into the larger themes of season 10 that were also a psrt of Buffy's book in that season).

          It feels like they only did Angel Season 11 because they felt required to put out a Angel centric series and a story that cut him off from what was going on in Buffy..If they really wanted a Angel book this season than I think they should of done a in-story reason to keep Angel from coming over and than done a non time travel miniseries(like they were going to with Giles).They could of done a miniseries with Angel dealing with the anti mystical thinking/fear starting to pop up outside of the U.S. in other countries due to what happened in the U.S. and a scenario where Angel has to deal with a threat to Magic Town due to the anti mystical hysteria generated by what was going on in Buffy's book.This would of allowed a Angel story(and a four to six issue miniseries would of worked better than a full monthly season for this,I think) that tied in with the larger themes of the season and still allowed a Angel centric series that also would of had more of a point.

          Or they could just of not done a Angel title at all this season.
          Last edited by BAF; 30-09-17, 09:08 PM.


          • #6
            Yes, I agree that this season of AtS is pretty much filler to keep him away from the BtVS title. Because realistically, Angel should get involved if he was still hanging around in present day. Not only were Buffy, Spike and Willow locked up in the Safe Zone, but Connor would be as well. Also Gwen, Nina, Groo and Betta George. Angel would seem like a massive jerk if he didn't jump on a plane and get involved.

            That still doesn't excuse how crappy this season has been. A time travel story could have been great. Why are we not seeing Wesley and Cordelia if Angel is jumping around in time?

            AtS could have also been set entirely in the Safe Zone, although that has too much potential for a crossover mess. I'd rather crossovers be set few and far between. Still, it would have given Angel a supporting cast, something he's been sorely lacking for the past three seasons or so. Or maybe it could have been a bunch of oneshots about Connor, Koh, Drusilla, Gunn, Harmony, Alistair etc all adapting to the new status quo?

            Or maybe the solution is to not have the Buffy book revolve around large, public, world changing events that Angel would need to necessarily know about?


            • #7
              This issue only gave me a headache and nothing more.

              Angel forced Illyria to take them to Galway, where his “biggest mistake happened”; so, was being sired a choice?

              And Angel thinks that preventing him becoming a vampire will avoid the horrible end-of-the-world event thing he's seen in the vision (something I still haven't quite understood)? And he doesn't stop for a second to think about the huge consequences of him not being sired? What they have done so far caused, at least, a hotel being disintegrated and probably the death of many people!

              And then, he wants to save some guy from Darla, but how does he know he will die in her hands? If he was killed before Angel was sired, he (Liam) couldn't know about it.

              What's the point of all that?
              Last edited by betta; 09-10-17, 04:08 AM.
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              • #8
                I thought about that point while reading it too. Yeah, there's no way Angel should know about a guy Darla killed before she sired him. Unless maybe she made a point of telling Liam/Angelus about him or showing off the corpse for some reason and Angel remembered him after all these hundreds of years? Then again, that's ridiculous and the writer obviously wasn't thinking that far ahead.