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Buffy # 9 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • Buffy # 9 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

    Opening the thread for tomorrow's issue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Buffy # 9 first review.

    http://www.scifipulse.net/in-review-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-season-11-9/

    In Review: Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Season 11 #9

    A roller coaster of plot twists and action with visuals to die for! Highest possible recommendation



    by Patrick Hayes

    The covers: Regular cover illustrator Steve Morris continues to be on fire with these covers! Buffy is holding a torch in one hand and the scythe in the other as ten violet colored giant bats circle her. She’s just swung the torch, as evidenced by the trail of flame that’s warding off the monsters. She looks phenomenal and the bats look awesome, with their coloring making them stunning. The title and credits are at the bottom of the book to preserve the visual. Thank you for that, Dark Horse Comics! The Variant cover has script by Christos Gage, art by Georges Jeanty, with inks by Dexter Vines, and colors by Dan Jackson, and letters by Comicraft. It’s hard to help the Slayer, as sister Dawn and Xander try to decide what to bring with them to help Buffy and Willow. “Like, should we bring stuff to read, or the crossbow?” Dawn asks as she’s sizing up the weapon. Xander’s first response is serious, but the second one hilarious, but true. This second panel also features a great visual joke. Overall grades: Both A+

    The story: “The Great Escape” is scripted by Christos Gage and picks up immediately from last issue with Faith, Buffy, and Willow confronting the wardens of the supernatural internment camp. Buffy and Willow don’t have their powers, so this six to three fight doesn’t seem like it’s going to be fair, sparking their leader to say to Faith, “How’s sass gonna help against a small army of chicks just as strong as you?” Faith smiles, “I fight dirty.” She throws a smoke bomb and lunges at the women, fighting them single-handedly, ordering her friends to “GO!!” Buffy and Willow make a break for the chamber that contains the device that erased their abilities, but it’s guarded by two other super-powered women. Buffy attacks the pair so Willow can get to the door. She takes a hard left to the face and blood comes pouring out of her mouth. Faith is still engaged with the first six, with blood flying, and some of it her own. Buffy goes Stooges, and pokes her attacker in the eyes, giving Willow enough time to get in the chamber, shut the door, and lock it. The women outside start to beat on it, their strength shown by the dents their fists make in the metal barrier. And that’s when something interesting happens. Wow! This is a major payoff issue. If you’ve wanted to see Buffy and Willow act like heroes, this is the issue you’ve been waiting for. Willow’s first dialogue on Page 6 is awesome, and Buffy’s lines at the bottom of 8 are music to any fan’s ears. Faith does something incredible at the top of 10, and her dialogue with Buffy is gold. 13 has the story truly going to epic heights, with the return of a popular bloodsucker on the same page. As if this weren’t good enough, the first two panels on 14 had me jumping up and down in joy. But wait! There are six more pages left and things take a turn toward another state with an entirely different set of threats. The final two pages change the threat and have Buffy considering her next move. Fantastic! Overall grade: A+

    The art: Georges Jeanty provides the pencils and Dexter Vines the inks for this issue and it’s going to be a memorable one for fans of the Scoobies. Faith dominates the first page as she faces the antagonists. The confidence she has is obvious with the way she places the scythe over one shoulder. Her smile at the bottom of Page 1 is absolutely wicked. Fans of the series will know it’s all going to hit the fan with her making that grin. The action that follows is frantic, with Lehane tearing into the group of women, while Buffy and Willow look on shocked. Buffy’s confrontation with the pair on Page 3 shows her making a valiant effort in the third panel. I was horrified by the amount of blood that spills out of her in the fourth panel. Willow is absolutely horrified at what’s occurring before her. Her reactions have no dialogue and none is needed for Jeanty and Vines have her in an unquestionable panic. The blood that flows on the following page intensified Willow’s fear as she tried to enter the room. Not easing her or the reader’s fears is the increase in blood that happens on Page 5: I can’t remember seeing this much damage done to Faith or Buffy in any comic adventures. Everything changes on the next page with the fourth panel creating cheers heard round the world. The close-up on 7 is flat out incredible. It’s badass. The bottom of 8 has a great sense of motion with the “items” in the air. The top of 13 increases the numbers of characters involved in the battle and they look great. Something occurs in the first panel on 14 that’s my favorite panel of the issue: just so darned cool! A numerous threat rears its many heads on 18 and they, too, look great. The battle is quick, but good, ending with conversation that’s shown with the point of view moving around excellently. The visuals on this book remain stellar. Overall grade: A+

    The colors: This book uses a lot of red. No, seriously. A lot of red. This color is first seen in the scythe that Faith wields, but as the battle continues colorist Dan Jackson has this coming close to Hammer Horror levels of crimson. Wow! The smoke bomb has Jackson making each plume creepy in gray with highlights. Buffy’s first move as an aggressor has the background going orange and yellow to highlight her moves. The lack of colors for the room Willow enters is terrific, making it seem futuristic and way too clean. Colors definitely show the reader what’s happened on 6, but I can’t say what the colors are or what they’re used for without spoiling things. Every shade of gray is used for the threats that first appear on Page 17 and they enhance these individuals’ nature considerably. The oranges used for the sunset on the final page give the book a fiery conclusion, hinting that the heat will continue elsewhere. Overall grade: A+

    The letters: Richard Starkings and Comicraft’s Jimmy Betancourt create this issue’s dialogue, story’s title, sounds, yells, a creature’s dialogue, scene settings, a television broadcast, vampire dialogue, and the tease for next issue. The sounds are killer on this issue with CHRAKK, VVRAMM, TOOOM, and BROK being my favorites. And I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that the scene settings are strong and the vampire dialogue is exceptional looking, matching the undead’s appearances perfectly. Overall grade: A+

    The final line: A roller coaster of plot twists and action to die for! I have no clue where this is going and I can’t wait to get there. Highest possible recommendation. Overall grade: A+

  • #2
    It really is a time I wish I hadn't read the previews because they did spoil the oomph of this issue a bit for me. The previewed pages along with George's release of the Spuffy panel weeks ago didn't really leave any main impact moments left, which was a shame.

    It is an enjoyable enough issue anyway, although Jeanty isn't my favourite so I found some of the panels a bit ugly (Willow's fearful face when they were fighting the slayers in particular). But the issue moves things on as expected and then a bit further when the group catch up with Vicki. It does make sense for different fractions of the supernatural community to band together, even without full trust because of what is being planned, but the intention of the Government isn't new news for the reader. Equally, the corruption in killing the people to frame the vampires and cause more panic/distrust towards the wider supernatural community wasn't surprising either. They may not have expected the break out, they may have just had a plan in place in case or one they were going to fit to those still on the outside and the break out just gave them an easier culprit. But the overall willingness to do this isn't a big shock, it's still at least possible after all that it was the same people who summoned the water dragon in the first place. Looking forward to the story continuing next month, but I may avoid any previews from now on.

    Quick additional thought/query, I wasn't clear who Vicki was talking to when she said that the concentrated magic in the town smelled like 'you'. To be on that side of her as Vicki is facing us, and the hair colour, seemed to suggest it was a comment directed at Faith, but the hair length is more Willow's. But it is Faith that responds to the comment. When she does, in that next panel with Faith/Buffy/Vicki, Buffy seems to have swapped sides from where she was before and Willow hasn't stepped forward instead/too so although it is a bit confusing on positions, it does seem to support it was more likely to have been Faith she was saying it to. In that case, is Vicki saying the deaths seem to have been committed by slayers? That would at least suggest a major prompt for reversing the empowerment spell. Did anyone else think it was directed at Faith, that it was about generic magic, or possibly even Willow specific (in that it could have been somehow using or based on her drained magic)??

    Comment


    • #3
      There was a moment when some really hard-thought moral ambiguity entered the story, which was going well enough until then, and then came the epic SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HH that was "the US government killed a bunch of people to make the supernatural look dangerous and largely hostile to humans".

      Problem remains, though, that the thing that makes the supernatural look dangerous and largely hostile to humans is having watched any episode or read any issue of this franchise prior to Season 11's hackneyed, amateur, and useless attempt to redefine those same mostly bloodthirsty monsters into a valid metaphor for partisan-defined political victim groups. Presumably the released demons and vampires that were framed were actually just back to their badminton league and pinterest. Terrible story choice. Better to have the Dolan Springs massacre have been exactly what it appeared to be, and for Buffy, et al, to have a moment of sober reflection that their broader life's work was still a thing for a reason, that they do share some culpability there, but that their larger war will have to wait while they get to the bottom of the government's evil magic-sucky destructo thing plan.

      I assume the concentrated magic smelled like Willow; either a clone or portion of her power used for whatever this weapon is. I suppose Jordan's gaggle of backbench Slayers could have done it, but I've no real pretext for the idea of a Slayer having magic that could smell or read like a thing, at least certainly not to a vampire. Where Willow zappage could at least leave a sort of ozone quality maybe?

      I'm going to admit, the Spuffy kiss panel made me chuckle since my first thought was "I wonder if one of the weird impulses he has to resist in a moment like this is to lick her face clean?"
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      • #4
        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
        I assume the concentrated magic smelled like Willow; either a clone or portion of her power used for whatever this weapon is. I suppose Jordan's gaggle of backbench Slayers could have done it, but I've no real pretext for the idea of a Slayer having magic that could smell or read like a thing, at least certainly not to a vampire. Where Willow zappage could at least leave a sort of ozone quality maybe?
        Yeah, I thought that at first too, but Willow isn't part of the following conversation or in the right position against Vicki for it to have been her. They could be talking about the Slayer power as magical because they are defining it in such terms when it is magically triggered in them and also drained away. Not sure because the idea of scenting it doesn't really fit, time will tell.

        I'm going to admit, the Spuffy kiss panel made me chuckle since my first thought was "I wonder if one of the weird impulses he has to resist in a moment like this is to lick her face clean?"
        Ha.

        I was also a bit disappointed that they had the town massacre a set up too. It wouldn't surprise me if we later found out the vamp group had been responsible for some other killings that they just shrug at because they weren't asked about those, or that some of the town occupants that were survivors they finished off, or that they just do something else to betray Buffy et al at the last. The reservations and distrust were being held up still and their belief that the vampires could have gone and slaughtered the town was there. I don't think they are going to back out of the basic premise that unsouled vamps and some demons just shouldn't be trusted in the end. The Government thing does need to be not as blunt and simplistic as it is appearing to be though.

        Comment


        • #5
          I had assumed it meant "you" in the all three of them up to trouble sense.

          The overall plot is coming down to "as expected".

          Comment


          • #6
            * Willow's magic drains her--she's a lot less powerful than she was in Season 8 and in Season 9-post getting her powers back.

            * Faith seems anti-Buffy/Spike--it seems Faith still wants Buffy to get back with Angel.

            * Spike's killed probably over 50 times more people than 2,000 simply for food.

            * The US Government is after all supernatural creatures yet it didn't bother to dust Angel after BtVS 8.39.

            Comment


            • #7
              Just read my copy and overall enjoyed it. After a number of issues that seemed to be stalling and introducing smaller sub-plots and sub-stories there was a lot of forward momentum this time round. Some things actually moved along so fast I kind of had to revisit and re-read.

              They smashed through the stand-off with the guard-slayers pretty quickly, as well as through Willow's repowering of everyone and the mass break-out of the camp. I agree with Stoney that Jeanty isn't my favorite, but in this case I have to admit that he did the fast-paced fight and action scenes justice. It's usually his close-up portraits that leave me a bit cold, though he seems to really have a knack for capturing Faith.

              I also agree with KingofCretins that the story-line of Vicky's gang's set-up makes for a bit of a dubious plot-twist to now paint Buffy and the vampires as allies. I thought it was interesting that Spike was the first to admit that the massacre was the fault of his kind and to be expected after the starving conditions at camp, which leaves open the question what Vicky and the rather large roost of vampires have been eating since the break-out if they didn't snack on the citizenry of Dolan. Somehow I doubt they all just refrained out of a new-found regard for humans. I wonder if they revisit that plot-hole at some point.

              A few random observations: why introduce Xander and Dawn except as an excuse to have everyone holed up in a motel room at just the right moment to catch the televised narrative of the government plot to discredit the vamps? Where did they go afterwards since they weren't with Buffy, Spike, Willow and Faith in Austin?

              For the moment the thread that had Riley and Sam join the fight and help the slayers out is also left hanging and we'll have to see what kind of closure we get there.

              The bat-migration from underneath Congress Bridge in Austin is an amazing sight IRL. The construction houses a colony of 1.5 million Mexican free-tail bats that come out every evening at dusk to hunt insects (except during the winter months when the bats hibernate in the bridge). It looks like smoke emerging from the bridge when they all start to fly off. http://www.batcon.org/our-work/regio...ions/cab-intro

              If you ever visit Austin you have to see it. Of course, next time I'll go down there and catch the sight I'll now think of Vicky and her gang of vamps flying off into the sunset... LOL!
              Smile, listen, agree - and then do whatever the f**k you wanted to do anyway... (Robert Downey jr.)

              Comment


              • #8
                The issue would have been way, way better if Vicki's vampires genuinely did kill that town. THAT would have been mature storytelling with real "shades of grey" coloring our protagonists actions, rather than the faux mature "demons are people too" shallow stuff some folks are impressed by.

                I cringed a bit when Buffy told Vicky that they aren't enemies. What is the title of this book again? Why exactly did Spike need to get his soul if vampires aren't morally repugnant beings by default? Just last season he even told Buffy that she should kill him immediately if the Soul Glutton consumes his soul.

                I was disappointed how easily Jordan went down. Earlier this season she was established as a formidable opponent when she fought Buffy outside her apartment. It's implied that she's a badass since she leads a squad and guards the Safe Zone. Yet in this issue Buffy oneshots her just so that the plot can move forward. Realistically, Buffy should have lost that fight. Restored powers or not, she's just spent several minutes having the shit kicked out of her by a super powered opponent. There was blood everywhere. I doubt those Slayers were holding back, Buffy should be missing teeth, have broken bones (especially ribs and face), concussion, you name it. She should have been a mess by the time her powers were back. Faith should be near death too with a dozen Slayers all whaling on her. She shouldn't have been able to stand up after that. I think it's bullshit that Willow's magic can take down all those Slayers, she really needs a nerf. I mean, what are Buffy and Faith even doing there if Willow outclasses a Slayer by such a huge margin?

                I assume Riley and Sam are in a jail cell now?

                I think this issue would have packed more punch if we'd seen Vicky even once in the Safe Zone.

                How was the government able to wipe out a town so quickly when the prison break was a secret plan? What was Vicky doing over that corpse, are we meant to infer that she was worried about human civilians? And if the guy was already dead, why wouldn't Vicky get blood on her fangs? She wouldn't even be committing murder, is she really gonna pass up a free meal of human blood after being starved for months? If a souled up Angel can't resist feeding off a corpse in the 70s, why would Vicky show more restraint? Why was she even in vamp-face then?

                I liked Jeanty's backgrounds and scenery.

                Where is Giles right now? I'm guessing his miniseries is pretty much canned?

                Comment


                • #9
                  I was disappointed how easily Jordan went down. Earlier this season she was established as a formidable opponent when she fought Buffy outside her apartment. It's implied that she's a badass since she leads a squad and guards the Safe Zone. Yet in this issue Buffy oneshots her just so that the plot can move forward. Realistically, Buffy should have lost that fight. Restored powers or not, she's just spent several minutes having the shit kicked out of her by a super powered opponent. There was blood everywhere. I doubt those Slayers were holding back, Buffy should be missing teeth, have broken bones (especially ribs and face), concussion, you name it. She should have been a mess by the time her powers were back. Faith should be near death too with a dozen Slayers all whaling on her. She shouldn't have been able to stand up after that.
                  Did you really expect some nobody to defeat Buffy in a Buffy the Vampire Slayer comic? Like, come on, Jordan's not even a big bad.

                  I think it's bullshit that Willow's magic can take down all those Slayers, she really needs a nerf
                  What? Why? Slayers are defenseless against magic, always have been.

                  I mean, what are Buffy and Faith even doing there if Willow outclasses a Slayer by such a huge margin?
                  The show answered that question fifteen years ago. In short bursts, Willow is almost unstoppable but she gets magicked out rapidly and then she needs to chill out ( well, that or suck power out of somebody - Rack, Giles, Kennedy etc ) This is what happens in this issue. She kicks ass, casts a big spell and that's it, she's tapped out, Buffy needs to keep her from toppling over. Like in "Blood Ties".

                  I think this issue would have packed more punch if we'd seen Vicky even once in the Safe Zone.
                  Agreed.
                  Last edited by a thing of evil; 19-07-17, 10:58 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Jordan was established earlier this season as being able to fight Buffy almost on par. By virtue of being a Slayer alone she should be tougher than most of Buffy's opponents. Remember how Dana with zero training kicked Spike's ass twice? How Andrew and a bunch of rookie Slayers intimidated Angel? Jordan should have more Slayer experience on her by now than either Faith or Simone had when they posed a serious threat to Buffy. On top of that, Jordan is the leader of her crew who the government would have contracted for being the best. She's physically imposing and her design was inspired by Rhonda Rousey. On paper, she should be a high tier threat at the best of times, let alone facing off against a Buffy who has already been through a severe beating. Jordan was OHKO beaten in order to push the plot forward and showcase Buffy getting her powers back. IMO, that diminishes a character that was a cool antagonist. If they want Buffy to whoop Jordan with ease, maybe don't show Buffy coughing up blood moments earlier? I think that whole fight was ridiculous.

                    That said, Buffy has been beaten before by characters who aren't the big bad -some of them being "nobodies".

                    What? Why? Slayers are defenseless against magic, always have been.
                    I've always maintained that's it's silly to make magic users this powerful because (a) they have to keep coming up with convoluted reasons why Willow can't just OHKO all of Buffy's opponents for her, and (b) Willow singlehandedly steamrolling a dozen Slayers diminishes how powerful and competent a Slayer should be.

                    I think Catherine Madison should be a good benchmark for what a powerful witch should be like. Can still hold her own against Buffy 1v1, but she doesn't fly around creating Green Lantern constructs. I'm not a big fan of Power Creep.

                    Clavus, very interesting about that bridge. It really would be the perfect place for New Vampires to hide.

                    So did Faith stake a vamp this issue? She looked like she was punching that one wolf-vamp and suggested they use stakes (like that has ever been something that needed to be discussed? Lol), and there is a green flash as she connects with the vamp. Is that an art error, or is she actually meant to be staking him?
                    Last edited by Vampire in Rug; 20-07-17, 12:07 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                      Ha.
                      Could have been cute on screen --

                      *Big dramatic kiss, w/ music cue*

                      *beat*

                      B: Spike?

                      S: yeah?

                      B: did you just lick blood off my face?

                      S: ....

                      B: *peck* you're gross *peck* I love you

                      *unclench*


                      Originally posted by Clavus View Post
                      They smashed through the stand-off with the guard-slayers pretty quickly, as well as through Willow's repowering of everyone and the mass break-out of the camp. I agree with Stoney that Jeanty isn't my favorite, but in this case I have to admit that he did the fast-paced fight and action scenes justice. It's usually his close-up portraits that leave me a bit cold, though he seems to really have a knack for capturing Faith.
                      Think Jeanty has always been pretty top-notch for the fluidity of still-image fight scenes to me, going all the way back to transcribing "Long Way Home" and "No Future For You".

                      I also agree with KingofCretins that the story-line of Vicky's gang's set-up makes for a bit of a dubious plot-twist to now paint Buffy and the vampires as allies. I thought it was interesting that Spike was the first to admit that the massacre was the fault of his kind and to be expected after the starving conditions at camp, which leaves open the question what Vicky and the rather large roost of vampires have been eating since the break-out if they didn't snack on the citizenry of Dolan. Somehow I doubt they all just refrained out of a new-found regard for humans. I wonder if they revisit that plot-hole at some point.
                      Oh, forgot to complain earlier about how trite it was to have Faith actually call-out the false flag possibility before realizing it -- really talks down to the audience IMO, adds to the sense of triteness that development radiates.

                      A few random observations: why introduce Xander and Dawn except as an excuse to have everyone holed up in a motel room at just the right moment to catch the televised narrative of the government plot to discredit the vamps? Where did they go afterwards since they weren't with Buffy, Spike, Willow and Faith in Austin?
                      Fanservice to folk like me who would be mad they suffer Failure to Exist in the plot?
                      Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
                      The issue would have been way, way better if Vicki's vampires genuinely did kill that town. THAT would have been mature storytelling with real "shades of grey" coloring our protagonists actions, rather than the faux mature "demons are people too" shallow stuff some folks are impressed by.

                      I cringed a bit when Buffy told Vicky that they aren't enemies. What is the title of this book again? Why exactly did Spike need to get his soul if vampires aren't morally repugnant beings by default? Just last season he even told Buffy that she should kill him immediately if the Soul Glutton consumes his soul.
                      Ugh, I'm glad I must have glossed over that. Just making it worse, lol.

                      I was disappointed how easily Jordan went down. Earlier this season she was established as a formidable opponent when she fought Buffy outside her apartment. It's implied that she's a badass since she leads a squad and guards the Safe Zone. Yet in this issue Buffy oneshots her just so that the plot can move forward. Realistically, Buffy should have lost that fight. Restored powers or not, she's just spent several minutes having the shit kicked out of her by a super powered opponent. There was blood everywhere. I doubt those Slayers were holding back, Buffy should be missing teeth, have broken bones (especially ribs and face), concussion, you name it. She should have been a mess by the time her powers were back. Faith should be near death too with a dozen Slayers all whaling on her. She shouldn't have been able to stand up after that. I think it's bullshit that Willow's magic can take down all those Slayers, she really needs a nerf. I mean, what are Buffy and Faith even doing there if Willow outclasses a Slayer by such a huge margin?
                      Nah, Jordan was an upjumped pretender and always was, and that rightfully was a curbstomp battle. If there is fault in it, it's only that it retreads the ground of "Coda", but the stakes were obviously higher here. Jordan getting the Commodus-Maximus treatment is fitting.

                      I assume Riley and Sam are in a jail cell now?

                      ...

                      How was the government able to wipe out a town so quickly when the prison break was a secret plan?
                      Not to go back to my own curious theory, but what if the answer to your first question here is also the answer to your second?
                      Last edited by KingofCretins; 20-07-17, 12:35 AM.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

                        Nah, Jordan was an upjumped pretender and always was, and that rightfully was a curbstomp battle. If there is fault in it, it's only that it retreads the ground of "Coda", but the stakes were obviously higher here. Jordan getting the Commodus-Maximus treatment is fitting.
                        The thing is, Jordan has already fought Buffy once this season and was able to hold her own. But more importantly, Buffy should have been a mess of broken bones with half of her blood and all of her teeth on the floor by the time her powers were restored. If they wanted to show Buffy triumphantly kicking ass, they shouldn't have gone the emotionally cheap route of having Buffy get beaten up badly by a Slayer first. Maybe they could have shown Buffy using her smarts to avoid the fight or maybe use gadgets like tazers or pepper spray to even the odds? I don't buy that the fight was THAT one sided beforehand, with THAT much blood spilled, and then when Buffy's strength is restored its no big deal.

                        I get that a lot of the post-Chosen Slayers are watered down versions of the "one girl in all the world", but I still think that a dozen of them should have been able to restrain/KO/kill Faith.

                        Maybe it would be more believable for me if Jordan had less backup and the fight with Faith was 1v1, then Jordan could cheapshot Faith with a knife or gun or something, Willow could then occupy herself healing Faith under a forcefeild while Buffy then curbstomps Jordan since in this scenario Buffy didn't cop a nasty beat down first?


                        I assume Riley and Sam are in a jail cell now?

                        ...

                        How was the government able to wipe out a town so quickly when the prison break was a secret plan?
                        Not to go back to my own curious theory, but what if the answer to your first question here is also the answer to your second?[/QUOTE]

                        Shit man, that is a very dark idea. That Riley and Sam planned the whole thing, manipulated Buffy into releasing the Safe Zone, wiped out a town in order to justify this whole thing? That's dark and I'd give the writers kudos if they were willing to go there, but I doubt it. The story has been overly safe for a long time now.

                        Another bit in the story I cringed at was when the TV said that lethal force against vampires was now legel (even then with the caveat of being at the discretion of law enforcement officers) and Willow reacts with "this is all our fault." Um, what?

                        Ignore the political crap of season 11 for a moment, and just take in the mythology and exposition about the nature of vampires from the first ten seasons. Would it be morally wrong of the government to round up all the thousands of vamps in the SZ and execute them en mass, pretty much Nazi style? If you're honest about the mythology/exposition about vamps -including the way Buffy treats them, from the first ten seasons -and this only applies to soulless vamps mind you (no Spike, no cute demons), I don't think you can argue that it would be morally wrong. It might be visually and thematically unpleasant, but if the government threw all the soulless vamps into a giant furnace, is that really any different from Buffy staking them one at a time, or Spike using a WMD necklace to genocide a vamp supspecies in the show finale?

                        It seems like we are now getting to the ridiculous place of debating whether the individual lives of vampires are worth something -and therefore second guessing the whole premise of the show since day one right down to the title.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
                          The issue would have been way, way better if Vicki's vampires genuinely did kill that town. THAT would have been mature storytelling with real "shades of grey" coloring our protagonists actions, rather than the faux mature "demons are people too" shallow stuff some folks are impressed by.

                          I cringed a bit when Buffy told Vicky that they aren't enemies. What is the title of this book again? Why exactly did Spike need to get his soul if vampires aren't morally repugnant beings by default? Just last season he even told Buffy that she should kill him immediately if the Soul Glutton consumes his soul.

                          I was disappointed how easily Jordan went down. Earlier this season she was established as a formidable opponent when she fought Buffy outside her apartment. It's implied that she's a badass since she leads a squad and guards the Safe Zone. Yet in this issue Buffy oneshots her just so that the plot can move forward. Realistically, Buffy should have lost that fight. Restored powers or not, she's just spent several minutes having the shit kicked out of her by a super powered opponent. There was blood everywhere. I doubt those Slayers were holding back, Buffy should be missing teeth, have broken bones (especially ribs and face), concussion, you name it. She should have been a mess by the time her powers were back. Faith should be near death too with a dozen Slayers all whaling on her. She shouldn't have been able to stand up after that. I think it's bullshit that Willow's magic can take down all those Slayers, she really needs a nerf. I mean, what are Buffy and Faith even doing there if Willow outclasses a Slayer by such a huge margin?

                          I assume Riley and Sam are in a jail cell now?

                          I think this issue would have packed more punch if we'd seen Vicky even once in the Safe Zone.

                          How was the government able to wipe out a town so quickly when the prison break was a secret plan? What was Vicky doing over that corpse, are we meant to infer that she was worried about human civilians? And if the guy was already dead, why wouldn't Vicky get blood on her fangs? She wouldn't even be committing murder, is she really gonna pass up a free meal of human blood after being starved for months? If a souled up Angel can't resist feeding off a corpse in the 70s, why would Vicky show more restraint? Why was she even in vamp-face then?

                          I liked Jeanty's backgrounds and scenery.

                          Where is Giles right now? I'm guessing his miniseries is pretty much canned?
                          I think the problem is they went way, way, way too far in the pre-powering stuff. Jeanty was probably trying to show that it's serious business but all the blood was farcical after awhile.

                          I think the Giles comic is in limbo. They can go back and do it any time in remember-when-Giles-was-in-school issue.

                          The False Flag was crap. They could have gone a long way to fixing the disruption of the mythology. Of course they'd have blown their metaphor all to hell.
                          Last edited by HardlyThere; 20-07-17, 01:36 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
                            The thing is, Jordan has already fought Buffy once this season and was able to hold her own. But more importantly, Buffy should have been a mess of broken bones with half of her blood and all of her teeth on the floor by the time her powers were restored. If they wanted to show Buffy triumphantly kicking ass, they shouldn't have gone the emotionally cheap route of having Buffy get beaten up badly by a Slayer first. Maybe they could have shown Buffy using her smarts to avoid the fight or maybe use gadgets like tazers or pepper spray to even the odds? I don't buy that the fight was THAT one sided beforehand, with THAT much blood spilled, and then when Buffy's strength is restored its no big deal.

                            I get that a lot of the post-Chosen Slayers are watered down versions of the "one girl in all the world", but I still think that a dozen of them should have been able to restrain/KO/kill Faith.
                            Nah, still works for me. Their first dust-up was the equivalent of a pissing contest, this was a prove-or-die type situation. This not tournament, Daniel-san, this for real.

                            Shit man, that is a very dark idea. That Riley and Sam planned the whole thing, manipulated Buffy into releasing the Safe Zone, wiped out a town in order to justify this whole thing? That's dark and I'd give the writers kudos if they were willing to go there, but I doubt it. The story has been overly safe for a long time now.
                            Would, as my point the first time, at least give us an adversary for Buffy to have a personal stake in dealing with. They could even do Riley super-dirty and make it all about power-insecurity, like he wants to power himself up because he figures if only he were Kal-El, the world would have all the hero it needs. Some shit of the kind, still better than where we seem headed otherwise. But, it does solve the immediate plot error of "how do you have your false flag murders ready to go on a moment's notice?"; because the entire thing was a put-on, Buffy being allowed back in, allowed to sabotage the safe zone. And how the Finns vanished from the scene right before it got extra violent.

                            Another bit in the story I cringed at was when the TV said that lethal force against vampires was now legel (even then with the caveat of being at the discretion of law enforcement officers) and Willow reacts with "this is all our fault." Um, what?

                            Ignore the political crap of season 11 for a moment, and just take in the mythology and exposition about the nature of vampires from the first ten seasons. Would it be morally wrong of the government to round up all the thousands of vamps in the SZ and execute them en mass, pretty much Nazi style? If you're honest about the mythology/exposition about vamps -including the way Buffy treats them, from the first ten seasons -and this only applies to soulless vamps mind you (no Spike, no cute demons), I don't think you can argue that it would be morally wrong. It might be visually and thematically unpleasant, but if the government threw all the soulless vamps into a giant furnace, is that really any different from Buffy staking them one at a time, or Spike using a WMD necklace to genocide a vamp supspecies in the show finale?

                            It seems like we are now getting to the ridiculous place of debating whether the individual lives of vampires are worth something -and therefore second guessing the whole premise of the show since day one right down to the title.
                            LOL Spike in "Chosen", a Jonestown scale mass murderer, right? That's where this has left us.

                            I do think there is still a banality of evil issue with your hypo that would make it objectionable to me, a consequentialism I don't like. It's a very MOO line of thinking, and it strikes the same implicit objection in me that that did, you don't want that much power accruing in some bureaucratic context, and you don't want the way of life of the mortal world to have to change to accomplish mass produced Slaying. It's a personal, even intimate thing, this long age-old dance. It's maybe a more aesthetic objection than anything else.

                            The best outcome I can think of here, lorewise, is that Willow ex machina's the supernatural world back out of the limelight. Get ALLLLLL the lethe's bramble in the turning world and "forget" the damn business, because that's about the only way you'd ever really stop a committed state-run program bent on purging the supernatural is to make it not remember it's job. Given it's a vampire, series, it's appropriate to cite Reagan's axiom that the only thing harder to kill than a vampire is a government program.

                            As an aside, adding this false flag attack to this already horrid and strained absurdity of metaphor is only making that vague 9/11-Truther 'ick' on the whole thing more pronounced.

                            It's very annoying since there is a pace and cinematic quality to this mini-season that I've quite enjoyed but it's being eclipsed by this trite, mythology pillaging attempt at allegory.
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                            • #15
                              Long time lurker and I just had to comment about... Jeanty. Why couldn't they pick someone else besides Jeanty to fill in? He's the WORST. Literally anyone else would be better than him. I've enjoyed the post-Jeanty comics waaaaay better, it helps that Christos is awesome and Rebekah Isaacs rocks! But, Jeanty... I thought we were through with him. It just ruined the issue. Is he doing anymore or just this one? please tell me it's just the one. PLEASE.

                              Biggest evidence he sucks PAGE 6, Willow's black dot eyes. It's like his awful trademark. I remember seeing a few of those back in Season 8, maybe Season 9. Oi, he's just the worst.
                              Last edited by modifiedblind; 20-07-17, 05:53 AM.
                              Just one rule... I don't want to date a twin... I've been traded before.

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