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Buffy # 7 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
    Vampire In Rug

    * Riley's the reason Buffy apparently got diplomatic immunity after BtVS S8. Riley's the reason Spike's chip was removed; obviously, Riley could prevent Spike's being in the camp.
    Its a pretty big stretch that Buffy got diplomatic immunity after season 8, but since nobody wants to read about Buffy sitting in a jail cell, she got let off the hook with the explanation that Riley vouched for her. Realistically, Riley's good word might have helped her case, -but if the president wanted Buffy in jail -that's where she'd be. Buffy and Riley were lucky that the higher ups put value in Riley's statements. If they wanted Buffy in jail, they could sting her with plenty of stuff and there wouldn't be a damn thing Riley could do about it.

    As for Spike's chip, that was a case of Riley doing Buffy a professional courtesy because of his connections with the Initiative. Riley wasn't dictating government policy.

    In season 11, the government said that ALL vampires must be in the camp because of their supernatural nature. What specifically, would Riley do to make Spike exempt (assuming he even gives a shit)? Do you think Riley can just march up to Jordan and demand his release? Do you think Riley can order around the president?


    Willow cannot protect anyone without her magic. Hers being in the camp is beyond silly: remember what she did in Season 9?
    Her plan now is to help the supernatural people the outside by exposing the corruption in the camp. Presumably, she will work on a way to restore her powers on the outside.


    Buffy didn't need to be in the camp. Spike and she could have simply moved to another country. Willow could have simply teleported them all out.
    We don't know how far Willow can teleport under the New Magic rules or if she can take passengers. We don't know ig what you are suggesting is possible. And if it is, you are suggesting that they illegally enter another country, so they would have the threat of deportation hanging over them for the rest of their lives. They'd have to leave behind their friends, family and jobs too. Willow's coven would be completely unprotected in the Safe Zone. Without a teacher, Caliope wouldn't be able to defend herself and would probably get eaten by one of the starving vampires or demons.

    Why is it hard for you to comprehend that Willow didn't WANT to teleport out of the country?

    * Riley would remember BtVS S8. Why wouldn't Riley care about Spike?
    I'm pretty sure that Riley was injured and out of action in Tibet in season 8 long before Spike showed up. It's possible that Riley has no idea about Spike's involvement in season 8. It's also possible that Riley learned about Spike's involvement afterwards and still wasn't fond of the guy regardless.

    Spike was a complete sh!tbag towards Riley in season 4, 5 and 6. Riley would have been justified to stake him at pretty much any point during those seasons. I can only assume he didn't as a courtesy to Buffy (or to be completely honest, due to Spike's plot armour). Riley's next possible interaction with him was at Buffy's housewarming party in season 9 where Spike told a funny anecdote about the time he almost killed Willow. It's possible that Riley doesn't know about Spike's soul. Or maybe he does and still has a low opinion of him, who knows. At any rate, we have no reason to think Riley would give a sh!t about Spike for his own sake. Any concern or consideration for Spike is an extension of Riley's concern/consideration for Buffy. If Spike died tomorrow, Riley would be concerned about Buffy's feelings, sure. But I doubt he'd care much about Spike himself.

    It's still not believable that Riley didn't tell anyone in the United States Government that Angel is Twilight.
    Again, plot armour.

    Maybe W&H has a finger in the government and protected Angel. Maybe the government actually sanctioned Twilight, he was using army guys after all. Maybe there was no actual recorded proof that it was Angel under the mask.

    That's beyond laughable. Season 11 apparently has a minuscule readership; it's fact the "majority of people" don't like it.
    Minuscule compared to what? The show? The majority of people who watched the show never touched a single issue of the comics to begin with.

    Minuscule compared to season 8? The decline in sales is completely normal when you look at the market, we've been over this before.

    Minuscule compared to Marvel or DC? No sh!t.

    Minuscule compared to other licensed comics based on TV shows? I don't think so. Especially shows that ended over ten years ago.

    What is plain is the hero of Season 8 -- Spike -- has been the most lessened since Season 8
    The hero? Really? Dude I just looked it up, he was in 7/40 issues.

    no bug ship,
    Good, the bug ship was sh!t. It was ridiculous sci-fi crap that we never would have seen in the show, and I've enjoyed Spike's character far more without it. The spaceship and the bugs that came with it freaking sucked.

    now living in a camp, etc.
    I think the camp is an interesting setting so I'm fine with that. I want to see more interaction with the other prisoners.

    I know you think Spike deserves to live in mansion with a harem of babes, but I think that would make for a pretty boring setting really quick.

    If you're bitter about Angel having it too good compared to Spike, take comfort in that Spike is a supporting character in a better book. Angel is the lead character in a book that is absolute dogshit.
    Buffy's by-far been the most punished for Season 8: no Slayer and Co., the indignity of working for Kennedy, Spike's being gone for most of Season 9, now living in a camp, now powerless.
    She's the main character, she is going to face hardships.

    Last edited by MikeB; 26-05-17 at 01:32 PM. Reason: spelling error: wrote "hey" instead of "they"
    That is possibly the most autistic thing I've ever seen. No offense, but do you think people really care why you edit a post? I'm curious why you think we need an explanation?

    It's simply irrational to be okay with this.
    I'm curious, do you develop these strong feelings of intense hatred for other fictional characters besides Angel? Like in other shows and movies? To the point where anyone who feels differently to you is being "irrational"?

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    • #17
      Reread this while my dinner was a'cooking.

      Does the panel of Riley saying trust me seem kinda conspicuous? With the tight close-up and everything?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
        Reread this while my dinner was a'cooking.

        Does the panel of Riley saying trust me seem kinda conspicuous? With the tight close-up and everything?
        Oh, yes. But I'm lost about him. "This is the world we live in now" - is he resigned, agreeing and supporting it, or secretly fighting it?

        I think it's time for Riley or leave the army for good, if he's against their policies (and if so, he certainly will be helping Buffy from the inside, again), or if he really has embraced "demons are bad, humans are good", stop pretending he's open minded and be honest about it for once.
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        • #19
          It is a considerable logical fallacy to assume that because Riley had influence over Spike's situation in other contexts that he would in this one. That's not how this works, as the lady says; that's not how any of this works. If nothing else, it is self-evident that the bureaucratic structures involved in the Initiative are different from those in the Twilight-era military sphere are different from those behind this still somewhat stilted plot.

          I haven't read it yet. I hate feeling like I'm kinda out of it with the Buffyverse, but lately I am. Needs rejuvenation.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by betta View Post
            Oh, yes. But I'm lost about him. "This is the world we live in now" - is he resigned, agreeing and supporting it, or secretly fighting it?

            I think it's time for Riley or leave the army for good, if he's against their policies (and if so, he certainly will be helping Buffy from the inside, again), or if he really has embraced "demons are bad, humans are good", stop pretending he's open minded and be honest about it for once.
            I could see Riley siding with the government on it to the point trying to manipulate Buffy to agree. It really might be just dumb writing. Willow's whole argument is similar. Why would the government kill them if they're powerless? How about because they can? Because it's easier to make a hit on someone weak and has a whole slew of people that wants them dead look good?

            There is, frankly, no reason whatsoever for her to be depowered to leave. She went in willingly. The other slayers are free to roam. The only reason it would be an issue is if the ultimate plan is to depower all the slayers, which is probably the case. This issue is draws major attention to the cracks in the overall premise. Why would you give a magic weapon back?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
              I could see Riley siding with the government on it to the point trying to manipulate Buffy to agree. It really might be just dumb writing. Willow's whole argument is similar. Why would the government kill them if they're powerless? How about because they can? Because it's easier to make a hit on someone weak and has a whole slew of people that wants them dead look good?

              There is, frankly, no reason whatsoever for her to be depowered to leave. She went in willingly. The other slayers are free to roam. The only reason it would be an issue is if the ultimate plan is to depower all the slayers, which is probably the case. This issue is draws major attention to the cracks in the overall premise. Why would you give a magic weapon back?
              Buffy is The Slayer, Willow a very powerful witch - and the Government know very well what they represent, so having them neutralized is a good thing (I bet they were thrilled when Buffy went to the camp voluntarily). Now, to kill someone powerless means to make martyrs, and any authority is fond of that. And they totally dismiss their cunning, of course - maybe to the point they think the Scythe is useless in their hands (and they really won't have much time to use it, since the supernatural is about to be wiped out...).

              So I think the whole thing is feasible.
              Last edited by betta; 29-05-17, 03:19 PM.
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              • #22
                * I remember Joss Whedon's saying Angel's responsible for everything Angel did in BtVS S8. I remember Joss Whedon's saying that Joss has been involved (to any significant extent) with the comics since the abortion arc in Season 9.

                I'm not invested in Season 11: I simply find it bewildering that anyone who isn't a complete Angel apologist could be okay with how post-BtVS S8 is. Season 11 manages to be worse than Season 10.

                Anyway, this is my last post in this thread: I don't care enough to expend more time and energy posting in this thread.

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                • #23
                  Mike, your character bias is showing. I'm sure if it was Spike who did the whole Twilight thing you'd be okay with that and/or invent justifications for it.

                  In season 8 the writers wanted to have Angel under the mask for the big moment of shock and betrayal for the reveal. They clearly wanted to be able to wipe him clean afterwards and so all the fallout of his apocalypse and the death toll was just kind of glossed over.

                  People who are not necessarily Angel apologists are okay with the post season 8 story because we recognize the story for what it is. Twilight was a season long mystery that had an unrewarding payoff for some cheap drama. After it was done the writers barely looked back and neither did the characters. So the audience can just kind of shrug and go with it too. Not everyone has your massive hate-obsession with Angel. He's not the first character to nearly destroy the world and come back from it.

                  You keep invoking Joss's name: what do you make of Joss deciding NOT to kill Angel off at the end of the season? Or the fact that Joss cares enough about Angel's character to demand that IDW relinquish the rights to his book?

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                  • #24
                    Angel, Angel, Angel. Does every conversation we have have to come around to that freak? Seriously, who cares? Angel's irrelevant, like, let go @MikeB. And if you're shipper, at this point, there's only one thing left that can sink Buffy/Angel deeper than it already has and that is Faith telling Buffy the truth about "I Will Remember You". Then it's game over.

                    I simply find it bewildering that anyone who isn't a complete Angel apologist could be okay with how post-BtVS S8 is.
                    I'm OK with season 9 and 10 and 11. Sure,there are some things I disliked but it's not like I liked everything in the TV series so whatever. It's Buffy, it's fun - what else do you want? As to Angel - yeah, I don't care.

                    Season 11 manages to be worse than Season 10.
                    You trippin'. OK, I disliked the latest season 11 issue, I thought it was trash, personally, the worst issue of the season so far but compared to the worst issue of season 10? There's no comparison. And I absolutely loved season 10 but so far, they're at least equal in quality as far as I'm concerned.

                    @Vampire in Rug
                    In season 8 the writers wanted to have Angel under the mask for the big moment of shock and betrayal for the reveal.
                    Did they? Cause', I mean, they kinda completely spoiled it right in the beginning of the season.
                    Last edited by a thing of evil; 29-05-17, 08:48 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

                      I haven't read it yet. I hate feeling like I'm kinda out of it with the Buffyverse, but lately I am. Needs rejuvenation.
                      I'm sorry to hear that man, I'm always interested in your thoughts on the issues.

                      I think season 11 has benefited from the shorter format of the season... means less filler (on the Buffy side of things anyway).

                      I find the Safe Zone to be an interesting setting.

                      Jordan is a pretty awesome antagonist.

                      I guess I'm one of the few that likes Caliope.

                      I don't think season 11 is a great book, but I think it's at least on par with season 10, and far better than the dogshit that was season 9. I do hope you get back into it, because I do enjoy reading your thoughts.

                      I think the book would benefit from a new writer maybe? Someone who isn't afraid to shake things up and not play it so safe?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by betta View Post
                        Buffy is The Slayer, Willow a very powerful witch - and the Government know very well what they represent, so having them neutralized is a good thing (I bet they were thrilled when Buffy went to the camp voluntarily). Now, to kill someone powerless means to make martyrs, and any authority is fond of that. And they totally dismiss their cunning, of course - maybe to the point they think the Scythe is useless in their hands (and they really won't have much time to use it, since the supernatural is about to be wiped out...).

                        So I think the whole thing is feasible.
                        Buffy and Willow are people with a lot of enemies, human and non-human, especially Buffy. Depowering (by their own choice) and turning them out into the wild would be a perfect cover for an assassination. Why do you think Maggie tried to use demons instead of just poisoning or putting a slug in her head? If they take them out in-zone, they're martyrs. If they do it outside, it's an accident or revenge. They've already demonstrated using such machinations with the ogre guy.

                        The Scythe is a magical artifact. They have to be aware of Faith and other slayers still roaming around along with other beings that could use it to do damage. I'm sure it will be a plot factor so it had to be done, but there is a large element of Comic Villiany in giving the protag everything they need to defeat you later. I mean, they could have at least had her demand it back and them reluctantly give it.

                        @mikeb
                        * I remember Joss Whedon's saying Angel's responsible for everything Angel did in BtVS S8. I remember Joss Whedon's saying that Joss has been involved (to any significant extent) with the comics since the abortion arc in Season 9.

                        I'm not invested in Season 11: I simply find it bewildering that anyone who isn't a complete Angel apologist could be okay with how post-BtVS S8 is. Season 11 manages to be worse than Season 10.
                        I think they're all crap for different reasons. If Joss wants people to hold Angel accountable, then have Angel do it. No more "influence" that's up to the reader when and how much it's affecting the character(s). No more soul/no soul crap. No hyena-possession, no magic spells, no thralls. No magic being a drug that makes your eyes go black and wear fetishwear.

                        Then I want him to grow up and deal with it and tell us why the character should continue existing when anyone else would be killed. Stop compromising a character's agency and then blaming them for it. It's just a cheap way to get woe-is-me angst without earning it, without putting any work into the build-up.

                        @atoe
                        And if you're shipper, at this point, there's only one thing left that can sink Buffy/Angel deeper than it already has and that is Faith telling Buffy the truth about "I Will Remember You". Then it's game over.
                        Like Connor? Please. I'm sure they talked about IWRY in the same off-screen conversation.
                        Last edited by HardlyThere; 30-05-17, 07:57 AM.

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                        • #27
                          I found the talking werewolf to be pretty jarring too. But I have a few fanon theories that could explain it. Firstly, it could be a different strain on lycanthropy. Oz got around on four legs while Nina was bipedal. This was explained as them being two different species. Maybe there is a strain that can talk?

                          Or maybe werewolves have been rebooted with the New Magic just like vampires now? If new vampires are immune to sunlight and can turn into bats, maybe new werewolves can talk?

                          We've seen a talking werewolf once before, it was one of the unfortunate people that got mutated by Whistler's plague ball in A&F season 9. I think the aunts made some comment about how he'd be popular at a furry convention? That dude might be the origin of this new strain of lycanthropy if it's not just a general New Magic werewolves rule.

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                          • #28
                            The first theory is kind of the one I was suggesting going with, that it was a similar, 'like' species that groups as 'werewolf'. I'd never clocked the four/two leg differences, or I'd at least forgotten. Fair point about the new seed possibly creating variations too, as with the new magic. There are definitely ways to explain around it.

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                            • #29
                              There's a talking werewolf in "Retreat" in season 8. It's not new.

                              @HardlyThere
                              No magic being a drug that makes your eyes go black and wear fetishwear.
                              That whole Dark Willow is a separate entity idea has always been mostly fanon and it was completely disproved in Wonderland, so yeah. Also fetish-wear? Nah, come on, it's just Rack cosplay. Vampire Willow? Sure, that leather thing is pure fetish. "Welcome to the Hellmouth" Willow, the white thighs/shirt get-up? Of course, no teenager would ever put something like that on in 1997, I mean, outside of porn. As to Angel - I agree, the possessed?/not-possessed?/kinda-possessed? twilight shit was embarrassing.

                              Like Connor? Please. I'm sure they talked about IWRY in the same off-screen conversation.
                              Impossible. IMPOSSIBLE! Angel would never, ever come clean about that.

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                              • #30
                                I don't recall the talking werewolf in season 8. If it was on of Oz's wolves, they were studying new techniques to shift back and forth from human at will, so they were operating outside of the norm anyhow. If it was mid transformation, maybe they morphed their vocal chords first?

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