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Buffy # 30 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • Maggie
    replied
    Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
    *waves*

    Do you feel like I did, that season 8 was a case of the 'emperors new clothes'? That in the end the fans read too much into the comics because they thought they would be like the TV show, and that certain plot points would actually mean something and be picked up later on?
    Yes and no. I think if Joss had stuck around more would have been cashed out. But it's also true that Joss without the writer's room to push back isn't as good as the Joss on the show. There were clunky patches in season 8. And the big move on Twilight demanded a serious follow through. And while I think there would have been some if he stuck around, I do think he was more cavalier about it all than I assumed when season 8 was in progress.

    Leave a comment:


  • bishopcruz
    replied
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    Exactly. You've stated my problems with it perfectly.

    However, in Issac's defense, how much of this is her fault I'm not entirely sure. I suspect a lot of it is down to the quality of the scripts and the direction the writer gives their artist. Opening scenes like the church fight sequence in 8.01 and then, as you say, that great TV-esque pullback to Twilight's boots mysteriously hovering in the sky would have actually been in the script. The cuts between Xander in the control room and Buffy battling the demons, again, were all part of the script and made the scenes more exciting and reminiscent of the show. Buffy's dream sequence in 8.02 as she's sucked out of her room and burned alive and the comedic sequence of panels showing Buffy waiting for Satsu to fall on her ass are, again, all parts of the script. The writing in S10 is just too flat and doesn't offer any of that.

    As you say, we rarely get those interesting cuts between characters and most scenes are a very straight-forward and filled with preachy, exposition-y dialogue. A lot of the time the characters are just sitting in their apartment talking. We can blame Issac's for the lack of scariness in the demons and the colorist for their bland choice in colours but you can only do so much when the script itself is rather bland too.

    Just compare Buffy and Satsu's heart-to-heart in A Beautiful Sunset and then Gage's boring 'Dr Mike' speeches. Not only was the dialogue in A Beautiful Sunset far better (it doesn't preach to the audience, it's witty and sharp, the character sound like themselves and are actually talking like normal people rather than hitting the audience over the head with it's 'themes') but look at how Whedon chose to write that scene. He has Buffy and Satsu have their heart-to-heart in the middle of battling vampires in a cemetery. It's funny, visually entertaining and keeping in spirit with the show. Whereas, Gage has his characters just stand around in an apartment or bedroom and talk about their feelings. There's nothing interesting or cinematic about it. As an artist there's only so much you can work with when the script isn't creating interesting scenes for you to draw.
    I'd love to take a look at the scripts themselves honestly, because comic scripts can vary GREATLY in the amount of direction given to a particular artist. Some writers are very specific in angles and scenes and how they want stuff shown, and others are a lot more basic and let the artists take control. Some artists work better with one type of writer, and some artists work better with another. Again, I don't want to take a crap on Isaac's ability, I remember quite liking her in A & F last season, but I do feel comfortable in saying that S10 has not really taken advantage of the medium in any real way. Comics can make a game of golf look visually exciting, there is no reason a supernatural soap about fighting demons should feel bland.

    On another note, yeah, I will say I was overly harsh on Isaacs, she still has her own issues, but I was mainly thinking of Megan Levens who is a cut below Isaacs, and was given some of the most talky issues, which sure as hell didn't help. Isaacs still isn't that great at setting a scene, but she isn't the dumpster fire that Levens was.

    On the other had, it did have me rereading S10, it started off so well, but yeah as I get to return to sunnydale arc the cracks are starting to show up.

    Leave a comment:


  • vampmogs
    replied
    Originally posted by bishopcruz View Post
    That being said...

    His early work DESTROYS Isaacs, it's not even fair. Just look at Issue #1 of Season 8, even before we get into the coloring, which is also miles better than S10 stuff, just look at the layouts. we get a great sense of action as the Slayers drop in. It's rendered in a double page spread that not only highlights Buffy, but gives us a great look at Satsu, Leah, and Rowena. We get a great cut to the command room, which has its own lighting and use of shadows, different from where the girls were, we get a feel for the space of the room, who is in it, and what happens there, there is detail everywhere. We move on to the fight between the Slayers and the demons, who actually seem grotesque, their faces are often covered in shadow. The combat itself flows wonderfully, and the scene finishes with a set of panels that pull out like a camera to Twilight's boots.

    I picked a random issue of S10 to compare, it was issue #24, the layouts are all so bland. The issue opens with three conversations, none of which are drawn with any real panache. the following action scenes are all pretty static feeling, and the demon they are fighting looks like a joke.

    A lot of this could be fixed with better coloring. The coloring in S10 is beyond bland. The characters are all in very flat colors, there is next to no shadowing, no real effect of light on the scenes. The inside of a cave is nearly as bright as the inside of Xander's apartment, there is next to no shadowing in the fights themselves. The demons feel like cartoons, there is little texture to them. The basic color palate doesn't help at all, the demons aren't gross, or threatening, they're just kinda there.

    But even better coloring can't fix the main problem I see in S10, and that is the inability to use the medium to any of its potential. We have pages upon pages of conversations using the comic book equivalent of shot/coutershot, we have a near total absence of good stablishing shots of environments, or effective use of multi-page spreads. Her art is visually pleasing, but it hasn't been visually interesting.

    But man would I kill to have someone like Fiona Staples on this series... maybe if they could get Brian K Vaughn back for at least one other arc.

    Edit: Whoops that issue was Megan Levens. I'll be fixing stuff up later.
    Exactly. You've stated my problems with it perfectly.

    However, in Issac's defense, how much of this is her fault I'm not entirely sure. I suspect a lot of it is down to the quality of the scripts and the direction the writer gives their artist. Opening scenes like the church fight sequence in 8.01 and then, as you say, that great TV-esque pullback to Twilight's boots mysteriously hovering in the sky would have actually been in the script. The cuts between Xander in the control room and Buffy battling the demons, again, were all part of the script and made the scenes more exciting and reminiscent of the show. Buffy's dream sequence in 8.02 as she's sucked out of her room and burned alive and the comedic sequence of panels showing Buffy waiting for Satsu to fall on her ass are, again, all parts of the script. The writing in S10 is just too flat and doesn't offer any of that.

    As you say, we rarely get those interesting cuts between characters and most scenes are a very straight-forward and filled with preachy, exposition-y dialogue. A lot of the time the characters are just sitting in their apartment talking. We can blame Issac's for the lack of scariness in the demons and the colorist for their bland choice in colours but you can only do so much when the script itself is rather bland too.

    Just compare Buffy and Satsu's heart-to-heart in A Beautiful Sunset and then Gage's boring 'Dr Mike' speeches. Not only was the dialogue in A Beautiful Sunset far better (it doesn't preach to the audience, it's witty and sharp, the character sound like themselves and are actually talking like normal people rather than hitting the audience over the head with it's 'themes') but look at how Whedon chose to write that scene. He has Buffy and Satsu have their heart-to-heart in the middle of battling vampires in a cemetery. It's funny, visually entertaining and keeping in spirit with the show. Whereas, Gage has his characters just stand around in an apartment or bedroom and talk about their feelings. There's nothing interesting or cinematic about it. As an artist there's only so much you can work with when the script isn't creating interesting scenes for you to draw.

    Leave a comment:


  • betta
    replied
    Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post

    I've always wanted my hair to look like an erect penis. ~ Buffy Anne Summers, "The Core"
    Rebekah Isaacs is great about clothing and hair styles - she have never commited this atrocity.

    In her Q&A, she said she loves drawing hair and had a lot of fun with the different Buffy's hairstyles (all adorable); and Buffy's clothes were most taken from her own closet (very cool ones). Willow's style was "earth mothery" stuff, very fitting and very pretty.

    Leave a comment:


  • a thing of evil
    replied

    I've always wanted my hair to look like an erect penis. ~ Buffy Anne Summers, "The Core"
    Last edited by a thing of evil; 08-09-16, 04:53 PM.

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  • Silver1
    replied
    As Vampmogs has posted examples of where Jeanty got it right, I thought I'd post some which illustrates (imo) his weaknesses...





    The first cover has the usual oversized heads (yes even allowing for the forced perspective in the second one) and the whole thing has a very crude feel to it.

    The second is just (I'm sorry I've got to be honest here) unbelievably awful. Oversized head, overly big eyes, and if nothing else it looks very little like SMG, but more like some kind of overly made up child.

    Terrible.

    The sad thing is Jeanty himself appears to be such a nice man in real life that I wished I liked his art more.

    Leave a comment:


  • bishopcruz
    replied
    Edit: Just to note, when I talk about 10 #24 below I messed up and was NOT reading an Isaacs issue, a lot of my stuff still stands, but it was a bad example. I'll fix it when I have time.

    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    He may have been "ugly" to you but, hey, at least he had personality. I'll always take personality in my art over "pretty." For all of Jeanty's faults at least his work had character. As I said, I would never deny that Issac's art is more consistent and conventionally attractive but it's also devoid of any personality or spark. None of it's ugly but it's not remotely exceptional either. Buffy looks like any other blonde woman. Spike looks like an Archie-character who just happens to have platinum hair.

    Jeanty's Buffy may have looked "doe eyed" but at least that was an actual attempt of capturing the character's personality beyond just slapping on SMG's unique nose onto a picture of a blonde woman and calling her "Buffy." There's nothing else about Issac's Buffy that even remotely captures how SMG portrayed her. Whereas, "doe-eyed" or not, SMG actually did have very big, beautiful expressive eyes which she'd use in her acting and which Jeanty was right to tap into. Those big teary eyes was exactly how SMG would play her and they would accentuate them with her eye makeup and close-up shots. The writers often talked about how what an amazing cryer she was. Jeanty was absolutely spot on to highlight that.
    Later Jeanty may have trended towards the potato face, but I agree, he actually captured the feel of the characters, much more than the likeness. Isaacs really doesn't capture either. Hander looks like a one-eyed Shaggy from Scooby-Doo, and everyone has the wierd pouty lips, with the girls tending towards a baby face. Also, Giles often looks like a hobbit. I could forgive all of that though if her layouts weren't so painfully dull.

    It's odd, because it didn't bother me on AnF last season, I'll have to look at those issues to see if her style changed, or what, because I can't unsee things now.

    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    I actually agree with bishopcruz about Issac's art. I wouldn't want Jeanty back as I was bored of him by S9 and I think his art got more and more sloppy as it went along (compare his art from the first few issues of S8 to his later work in S9 and it's obvious he wasn't putting anywhere near as much effort into it) but I think Issac's is very, very bland.

    She's a competent artist but her drawings don't "feel" like BtVS at all to me. It's not entirely her fault though as the colouring isn't great either. Everything is so damn bright that you'd forget this was once a gothic horror series about a girl battling vampires. There's no darkness, no atmosphere, no creepy shadows etc. Everything is bright, colourful, cheerful - even Spike wears polkadot boxers for crying out loud. If you think about the uproar over FOX's shitty HD remastering of the series you'll notice that one of the major complaints is how they have completely screwed up the lighting of the series (dark scenes are too bright, forgetting to add in filters or putting in weird bubblegum-ish filters over much of S1) and thus have really messed with the atmosphere Joss originally created. S10 is no different in that respect as the art doesn't capture the mood of the series at all.

    Part of it because they lost Sunnydale as a backdrop. That was a great setting for the story as there was a magnificent contrast between the creepy cemeteries/eerie sewers/abandoned warehouses/dark alleyways and the bright sunny Sunnydale High or UC Sunnydale, but a lot of it is down to the art design as well. The Scoobies' apartment is way bland, bright and dull. There's hardly any scenes (that I can recall and admittedly I haven't read most of the issues?) set in cemeteries or dark alleyways and they even turned demonic realms like Arashmahar into a bland corporate setting instead of the dark cavernous place it was portrayed as in the show. The few scenes set in caves were so damn bright they didn't have any atmosphere at all, either. At least in S8 we had creaky old castles, Buffy slaying in cemeteries, eerie forests, ominous sunsets/twilights, scenes of Buffy sitting alone in her darkened control room and a lot of scenes were ACTUALLY SET AT NIGHT. Remember night time? A lot of the show actually used to be set in it given that, ya know, Buffy slayed vampires and everything. In fact, so much of the show used to be set at night that SMG would regularly mention the insane shooting schedule and crazy hours.

    I think Issac's has many strengths over Jeanty. As I said, I'm not a fan of the design of her backdrops but at the very least they're more detailed than Jeanty's and she has put more effort into them. Jeanty started off great (The Long Way Home has fantastic backgrounds that are detailed and well-drawn) but he got lazy as he went on and in the end the backgrounds were pretty much just blank colours or very poorly drawn. And I would say that from panel-to-panel Issac's art is a far more consistent quality where Jeanty could nosedive pretty badly on some occasions. Jeanty also put some of the characters in the ugliest fashion choices ever (Buffy's long frilly skirt down to her shins with combat boots was a... interesting look) so Isaac's beats him on that as well (except for Spike who looks ridiculous a lot of the time).

    However, whilst I think Isaac's is more consistent I also find it quite bland. She never really captures any of the characters. Buffy doesn't really resemble Buffy whatsoever. She's a nicely drawn blonde woman... but she's not Buffy. Jeanty had some very ugly panels but he also occasionally had absolutely amazing moments as well, such as;



    Which, IMO, probably captures the 'essence' of Buffy's character better than any other artist ever has. Not only does that "feel" like Buffy but it manages to perfectly capture SMG's expression without just producing a stilted tracing of one of her photos like a lot of the cover artists do that almost always feel lifeless, staged and awkward. Issac has never produced a panel even close to capturing Buffy in that way and whilst her art may be technically more "pretty" than Jeanty's, it doesn't really resemble the character in the way his does in that panel or such as here;




    He also did manage to produce early on in his work some pretty nice looking scenes;





    Great atmosphere, colouring etc. All of which is lacking in the rather bland, soulless art this season. And, again, he managed to capture Buffy's personality exactly in that panel of her playfully cocking her eyebrow at Xander as she teases him. Issac's never manages that. She depicts a very pretty lovely woman who is attractive and well-proportioned. There's nothing remotely Buffy-ish about her, though.

    His art was also playful like in these panels here where Buffy waits for Satsu to fall;



    Which seems to be missing this season. Though, again, I can't entirely blame Issac's for that as a lot of that has to do with the writing as well. Whedon's scripts had those fun playful moments and 'stage direction' whereas Gage is too busy with his After School Specials to fit them in.

    So I wouldn't want Jeanty back but the moments where his art worked it really worked. I'd want someone more consistent overall but I think there's far better artists out there than Issacs. And if you'd want more 'realistic' renditions of the character then you'd want to look at Jo Chen's interior art for Always Darkest;



    And oh look at that!! It even includes a snarky line that is keeping in spirit with the original tone of the show. Something that has been non-existant for years now and has been replaced by preachy speeches about the importance of family and friendship and puppies and rainbows.... *sigh*
    QFT, especially on the coloring. It's why even some of the worst IDW stuff feels like it has more life than some S10 art that on a penciling level is objectively better.

    Just to again state the obvious, I never really thought Jeanty was the best fit for Buffy, but his early consistent work on S8 won me over, after what, 30 issues of S8, and another 20 or so for S9, you could tell he was tired of the schedule, and it showed in his work.

    That being said...

    His early work DESTROYS Isaacs, it's not even fair. Just look at Issue #1 of Season 8, even before we get into the coloring, which is also miles better than S10 stuff, just look at the layouts. we get a great sense of action as the Slayers drop in. It's rendered in a double page spread that not only highlights Buffy, but gives us a great look at Satsu, Leah, and Rowena. We get a great cut to the command room, which has its own lighting and use of shadows, different from where the girls were, we get a feel for the space of the room, who is in it, and what happens there, there is detail everywhere. We move on to the fight between the Slayers and the demons, who actually seem grotesque, their faces are often covered in shadow. The combat itself flows wonderfully, and the scene finishes with a set of panels that pull out like a camera to Twilight's boots.

    I picked a random issue of S10 to compare, it was issue #24, the layouts are all so bland. The issue opens with three conversations, none of which are drawn with any real panache. the following action scenes are all pretty static feeling, and the demon they are fighting looks like a joke.

    A lot of this could be fixed with better coloring. The coloring in S10 is beyond bland. The characters are all in very flat colors, there is next to no shadowing, no real effect of light on the scenes. The inside of a cave is nearly as bright as the inside of Xander's apartment, there is next to no shadowing in the fights themselves. The demons feel like cartoons, there is little texture to them. The basic color palate doesn't help at all, the demons aren't gross, or threatening, they're just kinda there.

    But even better coloring can't fix the main problem I see in S10, and that is the inability to use the medium to any of its potential. We have pages upon pages of conversations using the comic book equivalent of shot/coutershot, we have a near total absence of good stablishing shots of environments, or effective use of multi-page spreads. Her art is visually pleasing, but it hasn't been visually interesting.

    But man would I kill to have someone like Fiona Staples on this series... maybe if they could get Brian K Vaughn back for at least one other arc.

    Edit: Whoops that issue was Megan Levens. I'll be fixing stuff up later.
    Last edited by bishopcruz; 08-09-16, 03:52 PM.

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  • Silver1
    replied
    Yes, his bobble head characters I always found to be terribly off putting.

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  • a thing of evil
    replied
    bodily proportions more akin to that of a child then an adult
    Jeanty's art can be anatomically incorrect to a ludicrous degree and I understand that's his style or whatever but I don't care - it looks amateurish. Like, why are their heads so big?! The biggest issue with Jeanty's art though is that way too often the characters just aren't instantly recognizable. This is a complete deal-breaker in a comic that's a continuation of a TV show.

    I'll always take personality in my art over "pretty."
    I'll always take pretty over personality - in art and in life.

    Leave a comment:


  • Silver1
    replied
    Call me shallow, but If pushed I'd take 'wax doll' over Alfred Steptoe any day.

    Leave a comment:


  • vampmogs
    replied
    He may have been "ugly" to you but, hey, at least he had personality. I'll always take personality in my art over "pretty." For all of Jeanty's faults at least his work had character. As I said, I would never deny that Issac's art is more consistent and conventionally attractive but it's also devoid of any personality or spark. None of it's ugly but it's not remotely exceptional either. Buffy looks like any other blonde woman. Spike looks like an Archie-character who just happens to have platinum hair.

    And when I was talking about Spike I was actually referring to Issac's clothing choices for the character (like the stupid boxers). I assume it was perhaps her attempt at giving him a 'quirk' but all it does is contribute to the rather bland way he has been written all season and generally speaking she sketches him more like some waxed ken-doll with platinum blonde hair and doesn't really capture the essence of the character whatsoever.

    Jeanty's Buffy may have looked "doe eyed" but at least that was an actual attempt of capturing the character's personality beyond just slapping on SMG's unique nose onto a picture of a blonde woman and calling her "Buffy." There's nothing else about Issac's Buffy that even remotely captures how SMG portrayed her. Whereas, "doe-eyed" or not, SMG actually did have very big, beautiful expressive eyes which she'd use in her acting and which Jeanty was right to tap into. Those big teary eyes was exactly how SMG would play her and they would accentuate them with her eye makeup and close-up shots. The writers often talked about how what an amazing cryer she was. Jeanty was absolutely spot on to highlight that.



    Last edited by vampmogs; 08-09-16, 02:22 PM.

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  • Silver1
    replied
    so Isaac's beats him on that as well (except for Spike who looks ridiculous a lot of the time).
    Really? More ridiculous then the 'old man Steptoe' version that Jeanty ended up portraying him as? It always amazed me how he could take an actor with such chiseled facial features that should translate well into comic form and make him look so damn ugly.

    And as for Jeanty's Buffy. To me she never really looked like Gellar, but more like some kind of doe eyed caricature, with bodily proportions more akin to that of a child then an adult.

    *shudders at the memory*
    Last edited by Silver1; 08-09-16, 01:48 PM.

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  • vampmogs
    replied
    I actually agree with bishopcruz about Issac's art. I wouldn't want Jeanty back as I was bored of him by S9 and I think his art got more and more sloppy as it went along (compare his art from the first few issues of S8 to his later work in S9 and it's obvious he wasn't putting anywhere near as much effort into it) but I think Issac's is very, very bland.

    She's a competent artist but her drawings don't "feel" like BtVS at all to me. It's not entirely her fault though as the colouring isn't great either. Everything is so damn bright that you'd forget this was once a gothic horror series about a girl battling vampires. There's no darkness, no atmosphere, no creepy shadows etc. Everything is bright, colourful, cheerful - even Spike wears polkadot boxers for crying out loud. If you think about the uproar over FOX's shitty HD remastering of the series you'll notice that one of the major complaints is how they have completely screwed up the lighting of the series (dark scenes are too bright, forgetting to add in filters or putting in weird bubblegum-ish filters over much of S1) and thus have really messed with the atmosphere Joss originally created. S10 is no different in that respect as the art doesn't capture the mood of the series at all.

    Part of it because they lost Sunnydale as a backdrop. That was a great setting for the story as there was a magnificent contrast between the creepy cemeteries/eerie sewers/abandoned warehouses/dark alleyways and the bright sunny Sunnydale High or UC Sunnydale, but a lot of it is down to the art design as well. The Scoobies' apartment is way bland, bright and dull. There's hardly any scenes (that I can recall and admittedly I haven't read most of the issues?) set in cemeteries or dark alleyways and they even turned demonic realms like Arashmahar into a bland corporate setting instead of the dark cavernous place it was portrayed as in the show. The few scenes set in caves were so damn bright they didn't have any atmosphere at all, either. At least in S8 we had creaky old castles, Buffy slaying in cemeteries, eerie forests, ominous sunsets/twilights, scenes of Buffy sitting alone in her darkened control room and a lot of scenes were ACTUALLY SET AT NIGHT. Remember night time? A lot of the show actually used to be set in it given that, ya know, Buffy slayed vampires and everything. In fact, so much of the show used to be set at night that SMG would regularly mention the insane shooting schedule and crazy hours.

    I think Issac's has many strengths over Jeanty. As I said, I'm not a fan of the design of her backdrops but at the very least they're more detailed than Jeanty's and she has put more effort into them. Jeanty started off great (The Long Way Home has fantastic backgrounds that are detailed and well-drawn) but he got lazy as he went on and in the end the backgrounds were pretty much just blank colours or very poorly drawn. And I would say that from panel-to-panel Issac's art is a far more consistent quality where Jeanty could nosedive pretty badly on some occasions. Jeanty also put some of the characters in the ugliest fashion choices ever (Buffy's long frilly skirt down to her shins with combat boots was a... interesting look) so Isaac's beats him on that as well (except for Spike who looks ridiculous a lot of the time).

    However, whilst I think Isaac's is more consistent I also find it quite bland. She never really captures any of the characters. Buffy doesn't really resemble Buffy whatsoever. She's a nicely drawn blonde woman... but she's not Buffy. Jeanty had some very ugly panels but he also occasionally had absolutely amazing moments as well, such as;



    Which, IMO, probably captures the 'essence' of Buffy's character better than any other artist ever has. Not only does that "feel" like Buffy but it manages to perfectly capture SMG's expression without just producing a stilted tracing of one of her photos like a lot of the cover artists do that almost always feel lifeless, staged and awkward. Issac has never produced a panel even close to capturing Buffy in that way and whilst her art may be technically more "pretty" than Jeanty's, it doesn't really resemble the character in the way his does in that panel or such as here;




    He also did manage to produce early on in his work some pretty nice looking scenes;





    Great atmosphere, colouring etc. All of which is lacking in the rather bland, soulless art this season. And, again, he managed to capture Buffy's personality exactly in that panel of her playfully cocking her eyebrow at Xander as she teases him. Issac's never manages that. She depicts a very pretty lovely woman who is attractive and well-proportioned. There's nothing remotely Buffy-ish about her, though.

    His art was also playful like in these panels here where Buffy waits for Satsu to fall;



    Which seems to be missing this season. Though, again, I can't entirely blame Issac's for that as a lot of that has to do with the writing as well. Whedon's scripts had those fun playful moments and 'stage direction' whereas Gage is too busy with his After School Specials to fit them in.

    So I wouldn't want Jeanty back but the moments where his art worked it really worked. I'd want someone more consistent overall but I think there's far better artists out there than Issacs. And if you'd want more 'realistic' renditions of the character then you'd want to look at Jo Chen's interior art for Always Darkest;



    And oh look at that!! It even includes a snarky line that is keeping in spirit with the original tone of the show. Something that has been non-existant for years now and has been replaced by preachy speeches about the importance of family and friendship and puppies and rainbows.... *sigh*
    Last edited by vampmogs; 08-09-16, 02:18 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Silver1
    replied
    As for the art, seriously, compare Issacs to Jeanty in S8, it's not even close. She's not bad, but her faces are all over the place, and the layouts are often dull as dirt. I'm not saying she's mid-late AtF bad (when Urru left), but few things are.
    Oh god no! Art is subjective, but imo she's been the best artist so far. Yes, her likenesses can be dodgy at times, but her style is elegant and I'd take that over 'fugly' every time.

    As for characterization I think Spike really has had his 'spark' dulled somewhat and that could do with being sharpened up without loosing the progress he's made so far in his ability to work within the group.
    Last edited by Silver1; 08-09-16, 08:56 AM.

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  • bishopcruz
    replied
    Originally posted by Stoney View Post
    Sorry you are right, you are saying that you liked the progress that he took in AtS and are not just wishing he was back to his unsouled self. But there was also regression and negative reaction to being around Angel that affected him in AtS and had him behaving closer to his unsouled self at times because he was defensive and unsettled and that aspect was not positive progression. He did gain during that season, but it wasn't all good. I wouldn't describe him as changing then, he was developing from who he had become in S7 since becoming souled. As you say, an extension, and I don't think that is the same. I suppose our basic disagreement is that I think that Spike's progress is very organic and the strongest progressive story in the verse. Season seven isn't my favourite season but I don't think on it as badly as you seem to and Spike's arc over it I think was very strong and fitted incredibly well to all that we had seen of him before and with what he was going through. The way they showed changes in his character from becoming souled I thought were excellently done. I find S8-10 have been more consistent with the S7 depiction of souled Spike than the AtS/AtF times but see that as simply being because he is back in BtVS and is looking for something for himself and with those characters that he doesn't when he is away from them and/or with others he is more defensive with. But I find him doing that, and importantly him wanting to return to do that as someone very motivated by his emotions towards those he cares most for, is a very legitimate/supported character choice. I'd find it hard to see him move on/away from the BtVS group without having had a period of time such as he is currently exploring and it either going wrong in a significant way or him changing his mind about what he wants for himself.
    I think what you see as regression, I see as a more logical synthesis of who he was and who he is becoming. It keeps the core of old Spike, while opening up his humanity even further. I don't know if you've read the Spike solo stuff by Peter David and Bryan Lynch, I very much loved those takes.

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