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Buffy # 30 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • #46
    As mentioned when I posted my description of the Buffy S11 # 1 preview pages in the new Previews,I also finally got my copy of Buffy # 30 yesterday."Own It" Part V of V and the conclusion of season 10.

    I don't really have much to say.Things played out as I much suspected.

    I have a confession to make.I alluded to this in my thoughts on issue 29.I've pretty much knew Xander and Dawn would get back together for over a year and half.And as consequence figured Xander would be fine(I know most suspected he would be fine too based on it being a cliffhanger end to issue 29 but I figured based on info I had from over a year and a half ago).

    Back when issue 12 was coming out,I emailed Scott Allie to wish him well since he was being promoted to Editor and Chief of Dark Horse and issue 12 was his last issue as editor of the Buffyverse.In his response he made mention that,"The plan we had for Xander and Dawn is really beautiful. I hope they don’t change it, I hope they pull it off."

    At the time,that to me pretty much indicated that Xander and Dawn would re-connect and get back together by the end of the season.And that played out with there adventure in the other dimension and them getting back together in this issue.

    And I am glad to see them back together and they even got around "killing" Xander and bringing another character back by revealing he wasn't killed ut Ghosted for a bit.

    As for the rest,I really liked how D'Hoffryn finally got taken out.And I do like the setup of the gang now taking charge of the book of magic.

    Probably the only thing I didn't care for was the continuation of spuffy but I already knew it would be so nothing unexpected there.

    So it was a pat happy ending but I enjoyed it.

    Overall,despite the spuffy(which for me admitly is a big demerit),I thought season 10 of Buffy was way better then season 9.My opinion of season 9 and 10 is basically,The Angel & Faith side of season 9 ran rings around of the Buffy side and it was vice versa for season 10 although I did like Angel & Faith this season,it was nowhere near as strong as season 9.And I still like season 8 the best.

    With the exception of BAF, who deserves a big shout out for being a model of civility
    Thanks,I try to be.

    Is anyone familiar with Gage's other work? Perhaps there is hope that the different format will change his style/the pace he tries for??
    I am.His Marvel work.He works a lot with Dan Slott the last few years on the Spider-Man side of Marvel.The Spider-Man comics I read,have been since the early 90s.He's currently writing the Civil War II:Amazing Spider-Man miniseries(it's four issues and only has one more left).Plus he's co-writing with Dan Slot upcoming issues of Amazing Spider-Man during coming Dead No More:The Clone Conspiracy event.And he's done lot of Spidey work before that.He really got started at Marvel Avengers: The Initiative spinining out of the original Civil War event back in 2006/2007.

    I've liked his Spider-Man work very much.But I've liked his work in the Buffyverse too.I think with Spider-Man he has some more freedom since the character is 50 + years old with so many writers having worked on him.Writers can try their own thing.His Spider-Man is very classic Spidey.

    As for the fandom and the comics,yes it's much smaller now.Many have left for various reasons.A good example is the Whedonesque thread for isuse 30.I just posted my thoughts there too and with my post,that brings the total up to 4.

    Back during season 8 and Angel :After The Fall,those threads would be loaded with over a 100+ comments within a few hours of the comics release if not even before.Now,in a week,you're lucky to see even 5 posts.The Slayalive Q/A threads would be loaded with comments reacting and debating the answers.The Q/A's for issue 30 have no comments.

    Again,for various reasons,people have left/stopped reading/commenting.

    ETA

    I have already mentioned,I've been considering parting with the comics after this season too.My reason is economics(I'll admit spuffy doesn't help but there is enough that I enjoy that so far gets around that) .I read a lot comics.I'm a DC/Marvel guy and have been reading/collecting comics since 1992(one of my pride and joys that I own is a near mint copy of Showcase # 22,the first appearance of the Silver Age Green Lantern Hal Jordan).I follow the Superman titles,the Batman titles,the Green Lantern titles and the Spider-Man titles and occasionally other books(like Justice League) and DC/Marvel events(the current Civil War II for example).

    There are so many books and recently many of the titles I read at DC have increased to a twice monthly schedule.DC books currently are $2.99(although one book,All Star Batman is $4.99 monthly)and Marvel books are $3.99.It adds up forcing me to drop books.I've dropped a few books already even though I enjoy them.And the Buffyverse is one I'm still considering.I haven't decided yet.Season 11 going to one monthly title instead of two(Angel & Faith) and only 12 issues with maybe some miniseries(Giles and possibly Angel) is helping me lean towards staying though.I'll decide in November.Eiher way,I'll still keep up on what's going on and still bringing over any news when it comes out.
    Last edited by BAF; 01-09-16, 02:56 PM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Maggie View Post
      Did you mean "any" of us?

      Just a bit of history about this board, since you are new here. During season 8, this was a vibrant community.
      Yes, "any", sorry! Here there are criticism, but I don't see haters. I'm new here, and I'm new to the Buffyverse comics (I found out about them only in 2013!), but in a few years I've already read thousands of threads here and in other boards.

      Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
      I feel like some of you people here are a bit out of touch. Season eight started in 2007, less than 3 years after AtS finale. Before iPhone! Do you understand it? Of course less people are still invested in Buffy, the show ended over 13 years ago!
      This.

      Like we can't compare the superior quality of a show with comics, we can't compare the fandom now with what it used to be 13 years ago. There were a lot of discussions about S8, but there were much shock and disappointment, too - people didn't like the story, and left. There were people who wanted to read the comics because it was a continuation to the show, but didn't like the media and left. There are those who left when the economy went bad.

      For what I see today, there are just a bunch of us, really, who discuss the show - the same themes over and over - in forums here and there, it's like almost the same group of people.

      And the comics are still working - at least BtVS, because it seems Angel & Faith tanked - if it wasn't, I'm sure it would have been canceled.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
      Also the fact Joss chose to jump straight in with the story and not even try and explain what happened between season 7 and 8 didn't help matters imo.
      Yes, and it was Whedon's decision, let's not blame Gage for that.

      Joss wanted to tell a specific crazy story that came to him when he was... well, you know what people say! Just kidding. Who knows what Whedon was thinking.

      You like it or not, the story had to jump to a certain point: Buffy leading an army, living in Europe and being wanted as a terrorist. By jumping 18 months, Joss also avoided to deal with Spuffy - IF Buffy mourned Spike deeply, after 18 months she wouldn't be so broken. IF she got mad at him because he didn't look for her after his resurrection, she wouldn't be after 18 months - much, because I think her reaction to him in Last Gleaming was from a person who was pissed off, but didn't have time to deal with it at the time (and Spuffy wasn't a part of the big story Joss came up with; I think they dealt with that later, showing Buffy thinking that Spike didn't love her anymore).

      And maybe, they have already talked about what happened in S7, off panel - I know, it's lame - but it was said also that they talked about the AR many times, and we didn't get to see it, either. So, for me it's OK; I understand there are some things that are left aside, and never are addressed. And the things that were, concerning Spuffy, were coherent and fit their story.
      Last edited by betta; 01-09-16, 04:23 PM.
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      • #48
        Whedon's, and also the correct one. Even if the plan had been to be more forthcoming with the answers than they were, it still would have been commercially and narratively stupid to just open up with a two issue synopsis of the previous 18 months events to answer all the fanservice questions.
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        • #49
          it still would have been commercially and narratively stupid to just open up with a two issue synopsis of the previous 18 months events to answer all the fanservice questions.
          Thats not how a good writer would do it imo. Info can be bled in without being so heavy handed, rather then just ignoring it until the deafening sound of a load of readers asking WTF happened after Chosen got too loud.....

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          • #50
            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
            Whedon's, and also the correct one. Even if the plan had been to be more forthcoming with the answers than they were, it still would have been commercially and narratively stupid to just open up with a two issue synopsis of the previous 18 months events to answer all the fanservice questions.
            Yeah, I think it fitted the story Joss wanted to tell; sometimes, the mystery - how the hell they got there? - is the best path to follow. I would be upset if it was 2, 3 months only, but 18?
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            • #51
              Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
              I feel like some of you people here are a bit out of touch. Season eight started in 2007, less than 3 years after AtS finale. Before iPhone! Do you understand it? Of course less people are still invested in Buffy, the show ended over 13 years ago! Of course less people use this forum - forums are old, piece of crap technology that doesn't work on mobile. What do you expect? And all this whining and negativity doesn't help either. It's not very fun to read, you know?
              Wow. You've been here all of seven months. For what it's worth, the die off in the community -- the well-established and vibrant community that was going on for years before you got here -- happened in 2012 -- around the middle of season 9. You missed out on Stormwreath's detailed break-downs of the issues, or the big fight we had about date rape, or the endless arguments about how to interpret Buffy's character in season 8. But let me just run this test on you. I state boldly that the main theme of this season was that Buffy needed to grow up and take responsibility. Do you care to dispute that?

              Didn't think so. There is NOTHING to say about these boring comics. And if it floats your boat, well happy floating. If you think an iphone makes you cool, well, tant pis pour toi. I have one too. Have had for long before the comics became a waste of time. So what? If you are the representative fan of the comics in their current state, I rest my case about their banality.

              Stoney: I don't think it's impossible to draw a line through season 7 to the current Spuffy. But I'm just not feeling it. Of course, it's also true that I disengaged from Spuffy some while back on the grounds that season 8 made it seem clear to me that Buffy was in a very different place from where I thought she'd been. Having let go, there's nothing going on now that makes me think, wow, there's some life there after all. But I'm happy for you that you are enjoying it. And I'm still rooting for Spike to go on a quest for his humanity!!!!!

              Silver and King I personally don't mind the jumping in in media res. My only problem is that with regard to the Spuffy story line, the story-telling technique left me the strong and unconquerable feeling that the reason we could tell Buffy's story without reference to Spike was because Spike wasn't really that big of a deal to her. On some level, sure. But you know, she heard he was back, ran a fist through some walls, and went back to mooning over Angel. Emmie or TTB had interesting angles on that, but none of that panned out when Buffy and Spike resume as though the only thing going on between them is that he's carrying a torch for her, as always, and she's finally going to give it a shot, but they have to do some more after school special stuff on the AR... But yeah, the rest of it was good... we could infer what had happened -- or at least have lively and engaging conversations about what must have happened in the interim.
              Last edited by Maggie; 03-09-16, 07:21 AM.
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              • #52
                There is NOTHING to say about these boring comics.
                In your opinion, not everybody's.

                I know you choose to ignore my posts, but I feel that needed adding on.

                on the grounds that season 8 made it seem clear to me that Buffy was in a very different place from where I thought she'd been
                And remind me again, and that was? From my memory in 8 she barely tolerated him, so another irritating side to season 8 that I felt was a tad dislikable.
                Last edited by Silver1; 03-09-16, 07:14 AM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                  In your opinion, not everybody's.

                  I know you choose to ignore my posts, but I feel that needed adding on.
                  ha ha! just updated to add you while you were posting this. I don't reply because we've been having this back and forth for a decade now and I have nothing more to say!!!! But love ya!

                  p.s. And I have more sympathy for your skepticism, since season 9 never did go back and pick up the threads that badly needed to be dealt with. At least some of my posts about the greatness of season 8 were based on the assumption that stuff was going to get dealt with, and well, not so much. So we aren't as far apart as we used to be, though I still like season 8 a whole lot more than you did!!!!
                  Last edited by Maggie; 03-09-16, 07:24 AM.
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                  • #54
                    *waves*

                    Do you feel like I did, that season 8 was a case of the 'emperors new clothes'? That in the end the fans read too much into the comics because they thought they would be like the TV show, and that certain plot points would actually mean something and be picked up later on?

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                    • #55
                      I state boldly that the main theme of this season was that Buffy needed to grow up and take responsibility.
                      As opposed to literally every other season?

                      There is NOTHING to say about these boring comics (...) the comics became a waste of time
                      OK. Stop. Explain something to me. When I thought the comics were boring, during season nine, I stopped reading them. I didn't talk about them, didn't read about them, didn't participate in any discussions. I waited it out utill the end of the season. Why can't you? I have nothing against criticism, I can be rather critical of the comics myself but when you flat out admit that in your personal opinion the comics are a boring waste of time you basically invite those questions. And also...

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                      • #56
                        Kinda funny how we're having a discussion about the old days, as I've been gone for ages. I just finished Season 10, and wanted to drop in and see if there was any discussion on the season as a whole, because yeah, it was pretty boring IMO. It's weird, I loved Christos Gage on Angel and Faith last season, but he was not great on Buffy at all this season. Then again, I don't think the series has ever been the same after the fumble at the 1 yard line that was Season 8, so much great set up in that time, followed by a really lackluster conclusion.

                        It does look like it can be felt here too though, doesn't seem like there is a lot of excitement for the comics anymore. I used to read them every month as soon as they came out, now I pick them up digitally when I remember to, often several issues at a time because I just don't care enough to go month to month. I'm still into comics, read a lot of DC and some Marvel, but I kinda feel like I'm reading these out of obligation. Part of it is where they decided to take the story, I'm happy for Spuffy fans, but to me both Angel and Spike are far more interesting characters when they are not the main love interest for Buffy. And lord alive, Spike needs some snark in his dialogue, a bit of edge, and he hasn't had that in forever. Buffy is in a constant state of needing to grow up, Xander regressed, and Dawn is around for... reasons. I did kinda like Willow's arc this season, but I can remember precious little else of this run. Kid Giles is kinda fun too, I suppose.

                        Part of the issue is that I just don't feel that there have been either interesting concepts for arcs, or any real stakes this season. It's odd, because while Angel and Faith was objectively worse written this season compared to Buffy, it was at least more interesting. Magic town is a great concept, and the stuff they did with Illyria and Nadira were pretty neat. But I never felt that anyone was in real danger, at least last season I felt that there was a decent chance that Dawn would die.

                        Honestly I just hope that next season we cut down the cast a bit. We have Buffy, Spike, Willow, Xander, Giles, and Dawn, focus on them. Drop the dead weight like Andrew, Billy, Cop Guy (Is he even still alive? I can't remember for the life of me), and any other of the minor gang. Even with 30 issues, there is often not enough space for good development of the main crew, I mean, look as season 8, the main focus was Buffy, Xander, Willow, Dawn, and that's about it. Spike didn't show up till the end, Giles was on Walkabout with Faith, and Angel... was, uh there I guess, sigh. I do also miss having multiple writers. Not every arc in Season 8 was a home run, by any stretch, but it did mix things up a bit, something this series seriously need at this point.

                        Anyhow, guess this got a bit rambly, so I'll leave it be. Good to see you all again, for as long as I stick around here.

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                        • #57
                          And lord alive, Spike needs some snark in his dialogue, a bit of edge, and he hasn't had that in forever.
                          I disagree. Spike's just not that type of person anymore, it's character development. He changed, his relationship with scoobies changed and scoobies changed as well. It wouldn't work anymore.

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                          • #58
                            You can have character development without changing the core of the character. Character development doesn't make someone a completely different character. Spike worked because he had a bit of an edge, Angel constantly fights the demon inside, Spike embraces it as part of who he is. He's informed by his love for people and the world, but he's also a bit of a dick, and that's ok, that makes him interesting. When the writers lose that about him, he just becomes boring, see early Season 7, and this season as well. I really do like Spike, but him without any sort of edge just misses the point as to why he works. To use a comics analogy, Emma Frost has a history of being a snarky character, she used to be a villain, but over time became one of the best characters in the X-men, she slowly came to care about her students, and others, and moved past her origins. However she is still who she is. She's still a bit insensitive, still a bitch to those she doesn't like, and still calls it how she sees it. If she were to become just straight up nice, she wouldn't work. Spike feels like a shadow of himself which is a shame considering the great progression he had throughout Angel S5 through his stuff with IDW. Hell, even his minis were pretty good.

                            Now that I think about it though, I think that it is a problem that Buffy has had for pretty much her entire existence, every major Buffy love interest is far more interesting when they AREN'T with Buffy than when they are. Then again, the Buffy/Spike relationship was probably the most interesting part of Season 6, so who knows?

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                            • #59
                              I've often heard during S10 that Spike should snark more etc and I just don't personally think it is a fair criticism for a couple of main reasons. Firstly, he has specifically come back to try and integrate and belong so he is going to be really conscious of how he is interacting and it makes sense that he would be more considered at the moment. And then there is the fact that he has changed since he became souled and whilst he still has an edge and can be sharp at times (he isn't a totally different person) it has significantly dropped. And tbh I just think that it is right that it has, he has a conscience now and just doesn't care to attack people at will/for amusement as much anymore. I understand that some people just preferred the more caustic/rude Spike from the earlier seasons but personally I love Spike's whole arc and wouldn't change it for the world, even though I did enjoy his earlier snarkier self too. And he does still have his moments, he hasn't become sweetness and light and this emerges more when he is angry or highly defensive. Consequently it happens more around Angel, or see his interactions at points with Robin and Faith in S7, but it isn't a positive thing for him to be like that most of the time. He has a different internal balance souled and it just shouldn't be as dominant in his characterisation when he is settled.

                              As for Spike and Buffy's relationship, it has always been a highlight for me, their interactions, contrasts, mirroring. I don't think that changed between them when they were enemies, allies, lovers, friends and now that they are in a relationship. The writing has been better some times over others, but the two characters remain as interesting individually and together for me.
                              Last edited by Stoney; 05-09-16, 06:44 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
                                I disagree. Spike's just not that type of person anymore, it's character development. He changed, his relationship with scoobies changed and scoobies changed as well. It wouldn't work anymore.
                                Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                                I've often heard during S10 that Spike should snark more etc and I just don't personally think it is a fair criticism for a couple of main reasons. Firstly, he has specifically come back to try and integrate and belong so he is going to be really conscious of how he is interacting and it makes sense that he would be more considered at the moment. And then there is the fact that he has changed since he became souled and whilst he still has an edge and can be sharp at times (he isn't a totally different person) it has significantly dropped. And tbh I just think that it is right that it has, he has a conscience now and just doesn't care to attack people at will/for amusement as much anymore. I understand that some people just preferred the more caustic/rude Spike from the earlier seasons but personally I love Spike's whole arc and wouldn't change it for the world, even though I did enjoy his earlier snarkier self too.
                                Exactly. Spike changed. And that's what makes him a character so special, his evolution. His most caustic comments came from a part of him that doesn't exist anymore. But still, sometimes it surfaces, but in a more light tones, more to make fun than to hurt the person who is the subject, like when he said that "Harry's dignity and self-respect. That's then rotting", when he and Buffy entered Xander's room in #19, or in the last issue where he did some "gross mischaracterizations" of Giles...
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