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Buffy # 30 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • #16
    Season 10 is quite facile, but it knows how and who it wants to please. Season 8 is still far and away the strongest comic season, because it felt the most consequential, the most high stakes. If it weren't for its numerous world-building stumbles in the 4th act, it could have been the strongest story arc of the franchise for sheer narrative, despite the well documented aversion some had for the setting in anyway new or different than the televised seasons (Season 10, by contrast, could have been pitched like Nick Offerman's meta explanation of the plot of "22 Jump Street" -- people loved what you did before, so let's do exactly the same thing again).

    I will have to wait to read it until off work. Think the details will determine if I like it or not.
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    • #17
      a thing of evil:

      @American Aurora
      But I guess that's the audience for the Buffy comic now - young teens

      ATOE: But that has always been Buffy's target audience. Young people. Is it really Buffy's problem that you feel like you've outgrown it?
      Hey, a thing of evil!

      I thought you weren't talking to me anymore! Welcome back!

      Since I never watched Buffy during its original television run (except for one episode) and became interested in it only about a year-and-a-half ago, I could hardly have grown out of it to begin with!

      For WB, yes, the teen audience was the target. From multiple interviews with Whedon, the creator was aiming for something a little bit more interesting and a lot more subversive from the beginning - which is why he was so angry that they mucked up the movie version and felt he could correct this in the TV version. Battles between the corporate view of the show as a teenybopper piece and the creative view of the artists writing it ensued.

      You're confusing the motives of the distributor with the actual artist. The network wanted teen tropes - Whedon wanted to subvert teen tropes. Does this mean that BtVS was The Wire? Hell, no. But it does mean that it never took typical maudlin teen stories and stereotypes that glutted the market entirely seriously? Yes - which processes the idea that "high school is hell" through a terrific lens of adult wit and irony.

      The problem with the comic is not that it deals with young adulthood - but that it does so without the irony that made Buffy so enjoyable. Season Ten is full of eye-rolling After School Special lectures on trust and love and how to be a good friend that the Buffy series would have eviscerated with glee - for the most part.

      In my opinion, almost all of the major dramatic failures of the Buffy television series (like Willow's magical drug addiction in Wrecked or Spike's endlessly dull torture at the hands of the First or General Buffy's preposterous lectures in Season Seven) are because any and all ironic adult perspectives are missing - leaving teen bathos and cheese-whiz. A lot of dramatic failure for want of a Xander zinger that would have undercut the melodrama - melodrama inherent in most supernatural dramas.
      Last edited by American Aurora; 24-08-16, 05:57 PM.

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      • #18
        Yes. I was disappointed, but not surprised. Very predictable. I'm not exactly holding my breath for Season 11.

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        • #19
          Buffy # 30 Slayalive Q/A with Christos Gage has started.

          http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...ason-10-finale

          Buffy # 30 Slayalive Q/A with Rebekah Isaacs has started.

          http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...ason-10-finale

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          • #20
            Agree - and I loved Young Giles taking over a leadership role and finding, hopefully, some way to find peace and emotional health with his new life plus Spike's who could be a great VP I think was cute and I liked the panels with Willow saying she ready to take charge and so is Buffy. Still, just because I liked the panels, does not mean that it was all too predictable and simple. And I'm not sure but I'm wondering about the age range of the current readership - are they teens and young adults? The comic book readership mostly came over from the series and they were a great many who were not this Teen and Young Adult range - after all this time I think a lot of readers are not this teen and young adult age. As for the Romance Market - how many of our members read Romance Novels - I bet that many.

            I liked the last panel with Buffy and the Slayer Scythe looking like The New Leader with her Staff bringing in a new reign - OK, totally heavy handed visual but I still liked seeing Buffy take charge

            Don't think anyone was surprised with Ghost Anya turning on D'Hoffryn with Buffy's vengeance wish - would not any of the vengeance demons been obligated to answer Buffy's call for vengeance? I was surprised that a little bit more of a set up for the next season was not presented. Perhaps the Dawn now has her powers to use on Earth will be important in the coming season - I did expect that Dawn would be given a bigger role in the finale. Not that Dawn being able to transport them all and bringing them together for the final destruction of D'Hoffryn was not significant - it just seemed a little too easy and quick.

            One thing I totally agree with you - I am very much liking the shorter amount of issues - not being a big fan of comic books even after all this time, I still dislike the monthly issue and how long it takes to complete a story with this format.

            From American Aurora:

            So basically the comic ended almost exactly as predicted by PuckRobin and other posters. Agree with PointMan that Xander's survival surprised exactly no one - worst cliffhanger in the entire Buffyverse.

            This has to be the dullest season ever with every predictable plot point ticked off like the faux "plot twists" of a young teen novel. But I guess that's the audience for the Buffy comic now - young teens haven't read much fiction at all, so to them, this all seems fresh and new.

            And that's what Dark Horse is counting on like most corporate entertainment entities these days, believe me - skew younger and you might be able to capture some of the teen supernatural romance crowd. But I can't imagine most adults would say that this was a great Buffy season - Season One or Seven of Buffy towers above it.

            And that's because Buffy used to subvert the tropes of supernatural teen movies and books with adult subject matter and adult irony - that's why it was a popular show - now the Buffy franchise (Season Ten and Buffy: The High School Years) seems to be an exemplar of everything that's wrong with corporate-driven and produced teen fiction today.
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            Any of the TV seasons are beyond superior to the comic book seasons - the comic book season, IMHO, have always had that quality of writing for a younger readership than the TV series - maybe it comes from the perceptions by Dark Horse that the Buffyverse fans like this "young adult/teen" style or simplistic story treatment is mandated by the format. I don't know, I only read these comic books because I still have such a BIG love for the TV Buffyverse and this is all that we can get now and so I continue to buy them each month. One thing for sure - I don't read these comic books with the expectations that they will be particularly intellectually stimulating or that they will have any strong emotional effects on me.

            It's a pity that the Buffyverse did not continue, at least on a limited basis, with the novel format that would have continue with the exploration of the TV series themes and events. The novels would have offered an alternative to fans who wanted more depth and mature treatments to contrast the comic book seasons.

            Could be that Dark Horse is simply, as you state, going for that "teen supernatural romance" readership - that's why they came out with the new back to high school issues. Don't know about the rest of you but for me it's like a great big who cares to go back to high school Buffy years.

            Anyway - sorry for the rant - Can't say that I did not enjoy the keeping Buffy and Spike together even with many of the simplified solutions to the events of the TV series and all the issues that were ignored from the Twilight Times. I admit to being a spuffyholic just kinda wish that I could read a great long novel instead of comic books.
            Last edited by cil_domney; 25-08-16, 08:42 AM.
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            • #21
              Any of the TV seasons are beyond superior to the comic book seasons - the comic book season, IMHO, have always had that quality of writing for a younger readership than the TV series
              Well as long time comics reader I know that writing for a comic can be incredibly complex and adult, it's just sadly the BUffy comics decided (either consciously or unconsciously) decided not to go down that root. Imo the pattern was set by season 8 and has just staggered on from there.

              But it's incredibly unfair I suppose to compare the writing in the comics to the show, as they had the benefit of the input by the cast, and that contribution can never be overlooked imo.

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              • #22
                I've also had a chance yesterday to read my digital edition of #30 and have unfortunately little to add to the issues that were raised above about the story being fairly predictable, somewhat repetitive and probably directed at a somewhat younger audience without the layered subtexts that made the TV show open to interpretation on many levels and therefore interesting for an older crowd.

                I can also understand some of the arguments back and forth where the point was raised that if we had so many complaints about the comics and were constantly bashing the story, why would we still come back to them and even spend money on them month after month.

                Well, some of us may be masochists (you know how you can't help poking the tip of your tongue in that hole in your tooth that you know you should get fixed even though you know it'll give you a jolt of pain...)

                For me I know exactly why I keep coming back: at this point the story be damned, but Rebekah Isaacs is a goddess and her art is awesome!



                I look at her characters and the drawings truly bring back the faces of the people on the show for me.



                She goes back to the show, does her visual research, has a lot of respect for the amazing cinematography that went into making it and then makes it come to life again. I love that combination of mastery and humility.



                Sometimes she just gives me something that's freaking beautiful. I love the way the three frames blend into each other and the elegant ornamentation that underlines the flow between them. Every line has its place and feels incredibly dynamic and alive!



                And yes, I confess I'm a sucker for it. She does draw some pretty sweet Spuffy - who cares about the drivel in the bubbles. Look at the artwork around them, and I think there is a lot to love about Season 10.

                I'll keep buying Season 11 provided they can retain her as an artist!
                Last edited by Clavus; 25-08-16, 03:24 PM.
                Smile, listen, agree - and then do whatever the f**k you wanted to do anyway... (Robert Downey jr.)

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                • #23
                  Yeah I vastly prefer her as the artist then previous ones. She has a really elegant style and on the whole does the characters justice. *shudders at the memory of Jeanty's 'kidults'.

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                  • #24
                    Let me get this straight - do you people seriously believe that season 10 has more simplistic storytelling or is aimed at a younger audience than, for example, season four? For goodness' sake this is nonsense.

                    As to the art - I too vastly prefer Isaacs's work but credit where credit is due - I feel like Jeanty's depiction of movement and action scenes were superior. Not by much obviously, but still.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
                      Let me get this straight - do you people seriously believe that season 10 has more simplistic storytelling or is aimed at a younger audience than, for example, season four? For goodness' sake this is nonsense.
                      Well, there are some episodes in Season 4 that are pretty grotty: "Beer Bad", comes to mind, but I'd have to thumb through a lot of comics (from all seasons) to find stuff that's as well-crafted, subtle and multi-layered as "Pangs", "Hush", "Superstar" or "Restless", to name just a few.

                      As for the Season 10 story being vastly inferior to Seasons 8 or 9, that's not necessarily the point I was trying to make. I've had my share of facepalms over Centaur-Dawn and "pregnant" RoboBuffy. I've just generally kept reading more for the sake of the artwork (Paul Lee/ Andy Owens were a decent pencil and inks team in my opinion, Cliff Richards had good contributions or you were able to hit on gems like Gene Colan's short tale of Nikki Woods).
                      Last edited by Clavus; 26-08-16, 12:19 PM.
                      Smile, listen, agree - and then do whatever the f**k you wanted to do anyway... (Robert Downey jr.)

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                      • #26
                        The Full Christos Gage Slayalive Q/A for Buffy # 30 is up.

                        http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...ason-10-finale

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
                          Let me get this straight - do you people seriously believe that season 10 has more simplistic storytelling or is aimed at a younger audience than, for example, season four? For goodness' sake this is nonsense.
                          Originally posted by Clavus View Post
                          Well, there are some episodes in Season 4 that are pretty grotty: "Beer Bad", comes to mind, but I'd have to thumb through a lot of comics (from all seasons) to find stuff that's as well-crafted, subtle and multi-layered layered as "Pangs", "Hush", "Superstar" or "Restless", to name just a few.
                          I don't think we can compare a TV show with comics; unless the show (or movie) is very crappy, the real action is always better: there are the production, the acting etc.

                          And Season 4 had great episodes, like you mentioned, but I don't think the main plot is so much better: Maggie Walsh playing Dr. Frankenstein?
                          My Tumblr: Dog is My Copilot

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                          • #28
                            Read it. Decent and enjoyable for being the story that it is. Long ago accepted comics can't be show level if only because the actors aren't here. The plot is coherent and an entertaining enough read, if sledgehammered in terms of theme and emotion. Little surprised their was no big cliffhanger like the New Vamps last year. W & H being back on Earth could be the new problem or the antagonist in whatever 'Angel' story we get, though from the sounds of it they are nerfed by New magic and just trying to lobby and cling to some form of power.

                            Target audience is obviously show fans but it lets new people come in basically at the start of every 'season'. They seem to be trying for younger people with the manga stories which may translate, though it gets pretty bloody for a book that's not actually Rated M.

                            I read WicDiv #22 today as well. Its not the f-bombs or the (beautiful) gore and fight scenes, you can just tell its creators are allowed to be more ballsy. Without spoilers #13 was a gut punch to the readers over a character we never met before and the hate-tweet downside of fame. #14 literally reused art from old issues from a new perspective and made fun of itself but still had us understanding yet still hating one of the jackass, cruel, misogynistic characters. The issue I just read today had just enough depth for me to question whether our main protagonist might actually turn out to be some kind of villain in the end, even as we understand her motives and have wanted her to have vengeance for months. Contrasted with these books that let Drusilla get away for the 9000th time. I enjoy the books for the fluff they are, and I'll probably read S11, though if you wanted to drop off-now would be a good time since both books actually got pretty happy endings.

                            (I'm still bothered Angel never told Spike about Fred/Illyria though).
                            Last edited by DanSlayer; 25-08-16, 09:58 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Great Post - and I totally agree with you particularly regarding the Mind Trip - IMO, the best artwork of the entire season. Her renditions of the women are especially good especially Ghost Anya, Buffy and Willow and of the males she does a wonderful Andrew - he is my favorite of all her male studies. I wish that she could do all of the issues. Her work on Buffy and Spike in the Dream Trip and the finale issue, for me are the ones that I have enjoyed the most. Agree with you about the historical studies of Spike - they are outstanding.

                              I loved the last season ending covers and the contrast of styles - Steve Morris, IMO, has done beautiful covers all through the season. His portrait of Buffy for issue 30 I think is awesome. I sure hope that he will return for season 11.

                              Anyone else having log in problems? I keep getting asked to log in repeatedly during my visit.
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by PointMan View Post
                                I've read the issue, so I'll recap.


                                I think people can probably guess how things unfold here. Right after Buffy gives her speech that was in the preview, the one that ended with a wish, Fake Anya says "wish granted" and suddenly D-man isn't all powerful anymore. She then restores Xander, who wasn't dead, only rendered incorporeal and unable to be seen or heard. D'Hoffryn mortally wounds Anya after this, and she dies in Xander's arms. The other vengeance demons turn on D'Hoffryn, so he runs away back to his home office, where Buffy slices his head off. The team decide to reform the magic council, with Buffy, Willow and Giles as some of the new members. Also included is Dracula, who refers to Dawn as Xander's child bride(yes hey are dating again) The issue ends on a super upbeat note.

                                I'm sure plenty of people will enjoy the issue. I was left with a feeling of 'meh'. I'm disappointed that they wasted what I saw as such a good opportunity with what happened to Xander, either by actually killing the character and leaving him that way, or having th scoobies bring him back and paving the way for a post-resurrection story line. I understand the reason for the deception, but I found the twist to be entirely too predictable. As for everything else; it just felt to neatly wrapped up for my tastes. There's nothing that leaved me wanting to see what happends next, no hint of troubles ahead. Everyone is happy, healthy and together. Such developments may sound good, but happy charactrs rarely make for interesting stories. I'm sure I'll get plenty of disagreement here.
                                I admit I logged back in and even paid attention to the comics for the first time in years because I heard Xander had died. And I was for a time, truly hopeful he had because it would have represented an opportunity for growth and change in the B-Verse.

                                I wasn't expecting him to go down like a hero in Varian, in a romantic sense like Tidus or even an introspective but important prophetic way like Vol'jin. Just in a way that fit his character and what he meant.

                                So of course they didn't so they can continue to the game of musical deck chairs on the Titanic as the franchise drops further and further behind. I mean there are Inuyasha story arcs that wrap up faster and have more development/symbolism/emotion in them then the Buffy comics do. Really the only message I get from the comics is that someone thinks the license still has value so let's keep printing these stories rehashing every major or minor plot point from the TV series.
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