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Buffy # 22 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • HardlyThere
    replied
    Originally posted by Stoney View Post
    Using Dylan doesn't change the status of the other comic I don't feel because it doesn't change that Joss didn't opt to put his name on it. Sheesh they didn't even edit the dratted thing and I'm still unconvinced Allie even read it as what he said about it in the interview promoting it didn't even match the details within it. So she may as well be a new character with just whatever details they have given in S10. That they (mostly) match JM's story isn't important and they have even said themselves the link doesn't matter, so it does nothing for the credibility/status of the original story for me, not at all. The whole thing was a p*ss poor cynical abuse of fan loyalty imo and nothing aside from Joss suddenly giving it canon status will change that as far as I'm concerned. And no, it wasn't good. They chose to leave the IDW stuff open for fans to have as their own canon until/if it clashes with anything Joss wants to say/do. I just don't think this is any different because Joss didn't choose to put it into the canon titles, the decision on that front is his. He didn't stop DH milking the fans pockets with a immensely sub-standard product and that is a very disappointing choice he made but it is his name and not DH's logo that identifies canon.
    That's where we differ. I really don't care what Joss says regarding what is and isn't. Even if I did classify them as canon to the show, I'd have stopped when he kindly reserved the right to uncanonize them if he ever wanted to. He doesn't get to spout his 'trust the tale not the teller' crap and then run around with his papal bulls about this or that being part of the story. Apparently he can retroactively canonize old DH books as he did with The Origin even though he wasn't working with DH at the time. To be fair, the only comments I remember him saying about was that is it was as close to canon as you'll get since he wasn't interested in doing the backstory.

    Anyway, that's the problem with using Dylan. While he couldn't have stopped DH from doing James' story--DH owns the rights; they can do whatever they want--he could have stopped them from using her in the 'canon' S10. Actually he couldn't, but he could have said no to the producer credit. If he'd have said no, they'd have listened. Instead he handwaved it in there and allowed DH to rip off fans. Or he didn't read it at all, which is not just possible but likely, but that makes it no different from ITL.

    Anyway, I don't consider ITL canon because of the level it contradicts the existing canon. However that's true of the post-series comics in general, but we're just supposed to go with it. Which brings it back to the beginning of universes being canon or not. Joss got into the car, started it up then slid over and let a monkey take over. Well, he's responsible for everything the monkey does.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingofCretins
    replied
    I have come to the opinion that there is a deuterocanon, if you will, a sort of broader body of works that are not strictly canon but are referenced/incorporated by canon. I think that's where this book I never cared to read falls, and probably the whole of IDW's run with "Angel" (i.e. what little reference we got to Hell-A in "Buffy" and "Angel and Faith" is now canon, but whether the specific and literal events of "After the Fall" did? At this point who knows or cares -- if it matters to anything they'll bring it up).

    So this Dylan, treat what you're given here in Season 10 as canon and just that; if you didn't like hers or Spike's outfit or posture on page 3 panel 5 of whatever, and it has not been ratified by S10, then ignore it as you see fit.

    I am also taking this position with regard to the mothballed Star Wars EU -- without spoiling, I watched Episode VII and saw places where, for instance, "Heir to the Empire" or "Jedi Academy" -- at least their very, very broad concepts -- still could fit in without contradicting the narrative.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    replied
    Using Dylan doesn't change the status of the other comic I don't feel because it doesn't change that Joss didn't opt to put his name on it. Sheesh they didn't even edit the dratted thing and I'm still unconvinced Allie even read it as what he said about it in the interview promoting it didn't even match the details within it. So she may as well be a new character with just whatever details they have given in S10. That they (mostly) match JM's story isn't important and they have even said themselves the link doesn't matter, so it does nothing for the credibility/status of the original story for me, not at all. The whole thing was a p*ss poor cynical abuse of fan loyalty imo and nothing aside from Joss suddenly giving it canon status will change that as far as I'm concerned. And no, it wasn't good. They chose to leave the IDW stuff open for fans to have as their own canon until/if it clashes with anything Joss wants to say/do. I just don't think this is any different because Joss didn't choose to put it into the canon titles, the decision on that front is his. He didn't stop DH milking the fans pockets with a immensely sub-standard product and that is a very disappointing choice he made but it is his name and not DH's logo that identifies canon.

    Leave a comment:


  • HardlyThere
    replied
    Either it's canon or it isn't. None of this 'technically' nonsense or this part is or this part isn't. If it is, OK. If it isn't, then who the hell is Dylan? Give us some canon backstory as to who this woman is. I gladly expunge it from my memory because it was not good, but they shouldn't use Dylan. I'll give them slight leeway on the IDW stuff since it was a different company, sort of like WB/UPN and the eclipse only being in LA, but ITL was a DH book set during the writing of the continuity of their present stories.

    If they didn't want it to be seen as canon, they should have used a completely different character. Since they are presenting no backstory, it wouldn't have mattered.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
    * Seeming to make Spike: Into the Light canon simply further hurts the credibility of Season 10 and A&F S10 makes even less sense than before given we now learn of a world-wide military effort against the supernatural.
    They have already not exactly matched the JM story I think. But anyway, they were asked specifically about the use of Dylan in the letters a while back and said in the response that they wouldn't technically call ITL canon still and that if readers didn't get the connection they wouldn't be missing out. So no, using Dylan doesn't make ITL canon, just whatever they say about her. Joss wasn't involved, had previously rejected the story according to JM and although clearly happy to give them the go ahead to make it, unsurprisingly chose not to put his name to it. It matches what I've seen them say about the IDW stories in the past I think, that only what they choose to use becomes confirmed as canon not the whole of the other story. As usual fans can choose to ignore it or have it as personal canon. So no, it doesn't damage the credibility of S10 as canon because it can't, and it doesn't affect the logic of S10's character progression. It is still just that you don't personally like it.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeB
    replied
    Stoney

    * Seeming to make Spike: Into the Light canon simply further hurts the credibility of Season 10 and A&F S10 makes even less sense than before given we now learn of a world-wide military effort against the supernatural.



    KingofCretins

    Buffy loses 100% of her credibility and standing for moral outrage when she blames/resents Angel's flunkies entirely and Angel zero.
    Given during the Angel crossover it seems as if all the Scoobies (except maybe Spike) consider the only bad thing Angel did in BtVS S8 is kill Giles, Buffy’s moral outrage against the military and almost none against Angel would make sense. Willow the one who happily brought Angel over to San Francisco.

    If anything, it makes around zero sense that the military wouldn’t get both Willow’s and Buffy’s help and seems done to create nonsense tension between Willow and Buffy.

    In addition, DeepScan is now fighting supernatural threats. Kennedy wanted Buffy as essentially the Number 2 under her. Why wouldn’t Buffy rejoin DeepScan? She could also get their help and the worldwide military’s help fighting those 3 demons.

    In addition, where’s Riley? Why wouldn’t he be involved? Xander used to be Command Central? Why wouldn’t all the Scoobies be contacted to join the effort?



    HardlyThere

    * The writing of Season 10 is the problem, not Buffy and Spike the characters. It seems Joss hasn’t been much involved – if at all – since the Season 10 Writers Summit.

    Season 10 doesn’t even fit with earlier in Season 10 and certainly doesn’t fit with the canon of pre-Season 10.

    Buffy was so pro-military in BtVS S8 that she essentially created a global military organization.

    It’s beyond nonsense that anyone who knows Spike and that Spike himself would consider he can’t change.

    Leave a comment:


  • HardlyThere
    replied
    Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
    Whole thing seems like a rehash of S4 for the most part. Growing apart, finding separate interests/relationships and dealing with how they do or don't fit into long-term careers. The message of the show was routinely that your friends should come before everything and I doubt this'll be any different given how shady the military setup and introduction seems to be.
    Upon reread, I take it back. It's not any kind of setup. It's just more of Gage's set'em/knock'em down bizarre-o world characterizations so he can have faux-deep moments. It's apparent Buffy's objections to the military aren't about trust and skepticism but some kind of moral issue 'cause they killed some slayers. Really.

    OK, since when does she have issues working with the bad guys for the greater good? There's that. Then there's also every single one of her friends have backstabbed her, have tried to kill her or assaulted her in some way. She's dating Spike for f's sake, who killed 2 slayers, joked about it and is currently wearing the coat of one (ok, not really, but you know what I mean). The comic suggests that somehow Angel is getting special status, but yeah, no. Since when does everything her friends do piss her off? This is the opposite of S4 and the whole open-minded till your brains fall out thing. That's just the contradictions with the show's characterizations. Sticking with the comics, since when does give a damn about the slayers being killed? She was tap-dancing on their graves at the end of S8 and never mentioned a word in S9 OR S10 up to this point. Kinda like how all of a sudden the AR is a big deal and she gives a damn what Hank thinks.

    Jesus, for the love of all the gods, kill this poor character already. Put this once great heroine out of her misery and free her soul from this Evil Dead zombie abomination.

    And it's not singular to her. Spike is the most changed character in the 'verse. He's gone from the second-most notoriously evil vamp to currently dating a slayer and living in SF with a job with many a configuration in between. And they're still trying to bang home this stupid immortals don't change horsepucky.

    And since when are Willow's eyes blue? They screwed it up at the beginning of S8, fixed it, now it's back again.

    Leave a comment:


  • HardlyThere
    replied
    Originally posted by Clavus View Post
    I agree with Stoney's and KingofCretins' reviews. I liked this issue better than the previous one, but we still get dialogue that is very expository and somewhat preachy and making its point in a very repetitive fashion.

    To me the central point of the discussion really revolved around whether you should be making the most of your life irrespective of your emotional attachments or to modify what you want to do to take the feelings of others into consideration.

    Lake is one extreme example in that she worked so hard she lost her girlfriend (and didn't even realize it right away). She also makes the argument for Willow to let go of Buffy if Buffy cannot support her or accept her point of view. She uses all her school-friends she lost touch with as they don't have any interests in common to reinforce her point of view that people sometimes give up on their emotional connection because they develop in different directions. At the moment I don't really trust her, because she made Willow keep her new employment from Buffy and seems pretty intent to split the two friends up.

    Buffy strongly feels the other way: that the connections you have with people should influence the kind of decisions you make and that loyalty should prevent you from pursuing interests that you know will hurt others you care about. Both Lake's and Buffy's attitudes are somewhat selfish, and I think Buffy even realizes that when she lashes out at Spike: "Sure there I go again, making it all about me!" I think she's so prickly, because she's really still steamed by what she feels is Willow's betrayal.

    Dylan I think found the best solution to the two extremes we get with Lake and with Buffy. She uses an emotional connection to inspire her to do more with her life and to pursue her dream. From that position she can reach out in a fairly mature way to reconnect and have the best of both worlds, friendship and a feeling of accomplishment. Its a solution that Willow and Buffy seem to arrive at in the end as well.

    One comment on Spike's choice of the painting of a sunrise over a meadow under a tree: I had to think back to "Into the Light" and Spike's and Dylan's date. He pretty much picks her depiction of the spot where they met and kissed and Dylan wanted to show him the sunrise he had to run away from. That makes it something of a loaded choice for me. Combined with Spike's initial silence regarding the meeting with Dylan and her gallery invitation I think we still have a bit of baggage there...
    Whole thing seems like a rehash of S4 for the most part. Growing apart, finding separate interests/relationships and dealing with how they do or don't fit into long-term careers. The message of the show was routinely that your friends should come before everything and I doubt this'll be any different given how shady the military setup and introduction seems to be.

    Leave a comment:


  • BAF
    replied
    I have Buffy # 22.Part II of," In Pieces On The Ground."

    I'll keep this short since I very busy with the holiday right this second.I was lucky to get to the comic shop today but I really wanted to get my comics before the Christmas holiday.

    The Willow/Buffy conflict I actually really enjoyed and like others,I don't think this is the end of it.

    Dylan ended up being much adoe about nothing which I guess was playing with our expectations.What the character represents is nice but there wasn't really much to the character.

    Overall a decent but not remarkable issue IMO.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    replied
    I was also surprised that Spike let the comment by Dylan pass about vamps just varying like humans - 'different kinds of you guys, just like people' - and not saying anything about the soul difference, that vampires still shouldn't be trusted and are dangerous etc. This and the vamps at the speed dating as well seem to show that society is too complacent about vamps playing along to me, have always seemed so tbh. His lack of comment is probably indicative of him still feeling somewhat separate and ties into that, but also possibly sets up for her being a casualty and through that and what she has been shown to achieve, an inspiration for him to act on his self examination.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rihannon
    replied
    This issue feels a little short to me, but I have to praise the art and the small details (the new monsters of the Council, Spike feeding the cats, and the paintings in Dylan's exhibition...) that make it more enjoyable.

    I agree in what you people are saying, I guess we are all in the same page here. Also, I can say some predictions about what all this was going, that were discussed here, were very accurate. Probably this is why I wasn't very surprised.

    I still don't know how to feel about the meaningfulness of Buffy and Willow's fight... I guess it will depend on what happens next.

    I do find the Lake thing suspicious too, though... I can't help but wonder... Don't you think "Lake" is the perfect name for a love interest of someone named "Willow"? Willows do grow near to lakes, swamps or other kinds of wetlands. When I think about a willow, I have to picture it growing next to a lake or pond. I don't know if this was intentional, but IMHO just adds to the odd feelings.
    Last edited by Rihannon; 25-12-15, 12:26 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    replied
    Originally posted by Clavus View Post
    Stoney, sorry, sorry sorry!

    I WANTED ITL to be good when it first came out, and then there was so much wrong with it, don't even get me started. The timing was probably the worst of it. I'd have bought it if they'd set it in Angel Season 5 (like he walked out in a huff for a few weeks to find his own bearings), but right after Africa and WITH the coat. A whole boatload of NOPE! It was so disappointing.

    Anyway, "Cheers!" At least it's a good reason as any to grab a nice glass of wine! (Not that I'm proud to drive people to drink!)


    The overall thought of exploring the practical difficulties in lifestyle once souled is interesting, it just isn't what we got. And it wasn't just the canon inconsistencies and the cynical abuse of fan loyalty to get us to buy something promoted as working where it didn't. The story itself is also poorly written and although JM refused editing, DH still sold it. The idea that Spike never achieved anything for himself is ridiculous and then JM's 'positive' story has him trying to gain back loot from his soulless crimes and when he can't, and the shop owners gain it, they then give him the boots as a thanks, so he didn't even achieve the 'small thing for himself' that was, in theory, the premise of the whole frickin' story. Geez, the levels on which it sucked has levels, how bad is that?!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Clavus
    replied
    Stoney, sorry, sorry sorry!

    I WANTED ITL to be good when it first came out, and then there was so much wrong with it, don't even get me started. The timing was probably the worst of it. I'd have bought it if they'd set it in Angel Season 5 (like he walked out in a huff for a few weeks to find his own bearings), but right after Africa and WITH the coat. A whole boatload of NOPE! It was so disappointing.

    Anyway, "Cheers!" At least it's a good reason as any to grab a nice glass of wine! (Not that I'm proud to drive people to drink!)

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    replied
    Well as I said, the sun and being in the light have forever been a part of Spike's story. I don't think it has to have any 'Dylan' meaning in it for him for it to have been a meaningful choice, his story is rife with references. I did think it had links back not only to the sunset moment in the story, clear with Dylan's reference to his taste, but I think he saw a similar painting in her apartment or some such, I'm not going to make myself open it up to check though. But whether one or two related references they were already referencing a relevant point in his overall story and as we were told there is no issue if people don't get the connection to ITL I don't think the details back to that will matter. We'll see.

    Gah, now you have given me visual references I'm going to have to drink all evening to rid myself of the memories of that awfully written tripe again now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Clavus
    replied
    I agree with Stoney's and KingofCretins' reviews. I liked this issue better than the previous one, but we still get dialogue that is very expository and somewhat preachy and making its point in a very repetitive fashion.

    To me the central point of the discussion really revolved around whether you should be making the most of your life irrespective of your emotional attachments or to modify what you want to do to take the feelings of others into consideration.

    Lake is one extreme example in that she worked so hard she lost her girlfriend (and didn't even realize it right away). She also makes the argument for Willow to let go of Buffy if Buffy cannot support her or accept her point of view. She uses all her school-friends she lost touch with as they don't have any interests in common to reinforce her point of view that people sometimes give up on their emotional connection because they develop in different directions. At the moment I don't really trust her, because she made Willow keep her new employment from Buffy and seems pretty intent to split the two friends up.

    Buffy strongly feels the other way: that the connections you have with people should influence the kind of decisions you make and that loyalty should prevent you from pursuing interests that you know will hurt others you care about. Both Lake's and Buffy's attitudes are somewhat selfish, and I think Buffy even realizes that when she lashes out at Spike: "Sure there I go again, making it all about me!" I think she's so prickly, because she's really still steamed by what she feels is Willow's betrayal.

    Dylan I think found the best solution to the two extremes we get with Lake and with Buffy. She uses an emotional connection to inspire her to do more with her life and to pursue her dream. From that position she can reach out in a fairly mature way to reconnect and have the best of both worlds, friendship and a feeling of accomplishment. Its a solution that Willow and Buffy seem to arrive at in the end as well.

    One comment on Spike's choice of the painting of a sunrise over a meadow under a tree: I had to think back to "Into the Light" and Spike's and Dylan's date. He pretty much picks her depiction of the spot where they met and kissed and Dylan wanted to show him the sunrise he had to run away from. That makes it something of a loaded choice for me. Combined with Spike's initial silence regarding the meeting with Dylan and her gallery invitation I think we still have a bit of baggage there...

    Leave a comment:

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