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Buffy # 20 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • #16
    I'd rather they not try and address it, considering that they really have no interest in doing so. They are paying lip service to what happened, its not a true obstacle, its just there so they can have more 'aww' Spuffy moments. They might as well have just ignored it and moved on.

    So, on a different note; I've thrown my guess out there as to what the bomb shell reveal is. Anyone else have a theory?
    “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” -- Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #17
      I discuss the AR-related stuff in this thread: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...g-after-the-AR



      Regarding the other stuff:




      Sosa lola

      It's ridiculous how many characters die and come back on both shows. Darla, Buffy, Spike, Warren, Giles and now Anya - did I miss anyone? I don't really count Buffy sending Angel to hell as death, because she didn't kill him with that sword.
      Darla’s, Buffy’s, and Spike’s resurrections all made sense given the context in which each was resurrected. Dark Willow’s not sensing Amy Madison is a little hard to believe but it could make sense. Angel’s resurrection makes less sense when only considering BtVS. Even when considering AtS, it largely stems on the Powers That Be or Jasmine (whoever resurrected Angel) considering that Buffy/Angel was going to break apart and Angel was going to go to Los Angeles.

      Giles’s resurrection simply doesn’t make sense because it’s based on Giles’s never telling any of the Scoobies that his soul belongs to Eyghon and that Buffy’s soul given she was tattooed with the Eyghon symbol possibly belongs to Eyghon.

      Season 10 is a mess regarding canon but given the magical powers of Willow and Giles, it seems they could resurrect Anya if they wanted. One isn’t supposed to bring someone back from a natural death, but in the TV Buffyverse, it’s clear that it’s possible.



      KingofCretins

      * The ‘Anya storyline’ is only part of Xander’s storyline. Before the Angel crossover, Xander’s storyline in BtVS S10 was probably the most realistic part of Season 10.


      * Of all of Xander’s romantic partners, Anya is who was the least part ‘Buffy substitute’ for Xander.

      Xander/Cordelia is because Xander couldn’t be with Buffy and being Buffy’s friend and a member of the ‘Scoobies’ made Xander ‘cool enough’ and ‘desirable enough’ for Cordelia.

      Xander/Faith never actually was a romantic pairing; nonetheless, Faith is a ‘Buffy substitute’ for Xander and Faith largely had sex with Xander because she assumed Buffy had already had sex with Xander.

      Xander/Dawn happens because Xander acknowledges that Buffy didn’t actually want Xander.

      Xander/Anya actually develops from “The Prom” (B 3.20) on, Xander almost marries Anya, Xander after “Grave” (B 6.22) seems to have not tried to ‘get with’ Buffy and still wants to ‘get back’ with Anya.

      Therefore, it would make sense for Xander to ‘get back’ with Anya if Anya becomes corporeal and wants to be with Xander.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by PointMan View Post
        I'd rather they not try and address it, considering that they really have no interest in doing so. They are paying lip service to what happened, its not a true obstacle, its just there so they can have more 'aww' Spuffy moments. They might as well have just ignored it and moved on.

        So, on a different note; I've thrown my guess out there as to what the bomb shell reveal is. Anyone else have a theory?
        Anya was created by Xander. It can't be a coincidence she showed up when the book went blank.

        Comment


        • #19
          Butting in, cringing, yelling and not even bothering to edit. Sorry in advance.

          This is a post that might fart or watch the world burn. Spoilers and assumption, abound AND I am sorry to disrespect your time. I am sorry I can't write and loop a lot when upset. AND it IS all stuff we know but I hope somebody appreciates that that IS the problem.


          This issue is the most Buffy story I have encountered in years. And it actually moves forward by facing the past . The lessons that are not learned are in those things that mark a person, but then the person is unable to achieve freedom from such a “the tattoo” by the power of a lesson learned correctly.

          I’d summarize that entering the cave and “visiting the bones” and “making friends” with Death/change, ever at/on your back” is a truth, but it is the power that changes the * meaning* of the past to *you * that provides the path in “knowing what to see” that enables freedom (from that past mark on perception/choice) in the power to grow. Buffy continues to give her power to suffering and that shapes her life, such that the same patterns emerge.

          Angel’s guilt is such an example, as useless,” dead weight,” that neither can be “wished” away, nor resolved by dragging it around, and, unseen, reveals his definition of himself, which is why he remains “stuck” as an immortal vampire. Not to mention, regarding rape, it was Angelus who complains of Buffy’s love (IOHEFY) having “violated” him, (psychically) and he tries to clean himself in a baptism of (bloody) water, from which he actually never recovered regarding Buffy, in the need to keep her, yet also kill all existence of her, just as Buffy was prepared to take a physical bath and threw Spike off in the middle of physical violation, for Spike to “never recover” either. But that is the problem with season six’s “redemption of Spike” without actually dealing with the “all about Buffy” purpose of Spike, including his death that should have been his achievement of adulthood, “but for” the soul grabber.

          Neither Angelus nor Buffy gained their power back to ‘move on’ and that is what is being confronted, all the way back to the initial perceived betrayals and unfinished work of “Daddy.” It is the actual“ Daddy” who shows up both in the Buffy title and the Angel title, as his worst act (DRU), yet it is “the widow” that has been “daddy” to Spike, ike, when the actual father for Buffy has been Giles. The father figure for Spike, other than Angel, has been Xander, and Xander’s having to again face “ghost Anya”—not for his lack of loyalty or even commitment, but in the fear he would become “just like his own father.” (See ever the “shame and blame” conceits turned outward between characters and inward, as the self defeating enemy, that hasn’t provided “permanent” freedom from either shame or blame in how to “take back one’s power.”)

          ( Yes, Angel did become his father; he killed his son in hopes he would be “reborn” better. ATS finale may also be the “god killer” for Angel in the existential claim of free will in absurdity. Spike has to face “crazy Dru;” and the ignorant man he allowed to be killed by her, and “protectively” end his pain, not to mention, the man once shaped by Angelus. He claims he is a new man, but reveals he also drags around guilt that Angelus “just opened the door,” and the man he would usurp in some power over his influence in the real need to become his own man: in the models he has with Xander/Angel. HE will FAIL. It still is all about “mummy.”

          IMO, Spike’s journey is really about the “merry” Widow. I mean William’s honorable sense of loyalty to a woman who was ill, therefore weak and dependent on a (male) child that shaped “male duty” as a “civilized” and protective caregiver, but did nothing for the ignorance of a developing sexual being that also keeps him fluttering about Buffy, herself a “widow,” with a weak, non present father, a dead mother, and in having killed Angel, who she actually married, before she, in her mind, killed him, as her action didn’t hold back. We have to mention Dru is such a widow both from father, a dead mother, and the absent Father of her vows for a “marriage” to “Daddy” in her own siring. To Angel, she is the “dark sister” Cathy, to whom, on bended knee, he “proposed’ to “save her” from the tyranny of the father and failed, but returned, killed her as the means to kill his father Ends and means extremes mark him as past and future. Even saving Faith from Buffy was an act of saving his “dark sister,” even as she is shadow to Buffy herself and is ever repeated in every brunette that hits the stage of his life.

          (Spike, is previewed to kill Spyder, who is representative of the “black widow,” who also is, mythically Ma’at, who spins the life thread of each of us, and later serves her father, Osiris, in judgment of said person, if he shall enjoy eternal life or annihilation. I feel that act of killing Spyder is the “god killer” of existential free will for Spike, to be honest, just as Spike was posed as the “poet”; to fail the muse is to end up gutted in the vulture’s nest, feeding its young—the vulture actually is death/change or transformation.

          “Shame and blame” are the usual culprits that become dead end. Buried and off-loaded helps neither the person nor the full actualization of the person in the wider world. The “lesson” comes in “forgiveness,” but Angel the immortal, vampire and Giles, the boogity human, say it best,

          Angel: “the greatest power is mercy.” And Giles: “To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's, it's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it.”

          The lesson that eludes these two is in recognition of the power they give the past to keep on hurting them, while their own choices become a defeating pattern, denying their own power to grow and move, to the freedom of a full spectrum of choices. This is the required “death,” as is the metaphor in the series, for change, but it is one of transformation.

          How does a girl who IS victimized, face her own shame and self hate?

          Buffy didn’t ask for her father to betray himself and the family, while still married, nor did Buffy ask that Angelus “show up” to victimize her using her own sense of failing “true love” itself, nor did she ask for Spike to rape her.

          The lesson from “things happen” that we can’t control start with the shock to her own child’s view, that as center of the world, that she decided SHE was the cause of her family’s idyllic world breaking up. Why? Because the work of the father to introducing her to the wider, social world had been aborted, both physically in his “lack of presence” but psychically, in the emptiness of loads of “presents.” Which eventually themselves also disappeared, as she proved her unworthiness in “troubling behavior” and “contaminating” the innocence of children, just as her mother “faded” in her scramble to become both father and mother, in the realities of survival, physical need and successful social orientation, even as she was coping with Buffy’s acting out, and her own grieving loss and betrayal, medicated with a drink. The haze of drugs is the “other reality” that makes the psychic world’s differentiation physical reality that we watch, rather than the events of “Normal, Again” as the world shown without color or vampires, but one of entrapment, helplessness, and pain.

          This loss of her father, in particular, leaves Buffy in the world that she is now alone and her first watcher continues the instruction “as a good girl” she must keep secret in HOW she goes about dealing with that “abiding evil pain” in the darkness of the unknown. However, she has trouble with her own sense of shame as source of causing her dad to wander.

          She spoke of Spordelia, (confessions with a vampire, of course) saying she was shallow, demanding, she had became the slayer (in trouble) but it also provided a relief of off loading shame, converting it to blame. She must make all efforts to kill this evil she knows came from some unknown somewhere before it destroys her and everyone else she cares about.

          In fact, at the crisis moment’s “relief” she is in the bathroom, in the expectation of privacy, so shocked, to see the same face in the mirror. However, she “knows what to see” and that is the shame and blame that begin to entrench themselves into a child who blurs in tears, and is no longer staring back at her in the mirror. That is when the eternal vampires are the only ones who know both the evil and the inflicted pain of her condition.

          Yes, she and her mother have been betrayed, and it was done with a girl, too near Buffy’s age, who was “better than Buffy,” (and probably a brunette), in “some kind of attractiveness” that lured her father away, even as her mother takes on all the burdens of life and copes with a drink in her hand between disasters of Buffy’s new life that now forces them to “”give up” the past, but not actually “move on” by relocating into an actual “new world” of Sunnydale, centered with a hell mouth, source of the great, dark mystery of evil. (The cave of darkness is psychic descent and Buffy’s struggle is also with her own notions of the “good girl” in how and when to act as a sexual being. And what is stuck, as a plug, in this “”hellmouth?” The evil father.

          Angel shows up and he heralds as “the lover”—she has a choice. Personal love/comfort/escape/”normal” and her need to be seen as the good girl, the savior of the piece, the slayer who can destroy the source of darkness and the end of all the world for everyone forever. That is until she is killed.

          And, there is a problem meantime.

          Buffy has not dealt with the betrayal of the father, she has “invented” the watcher. A guy who knows stuff, but doesn’t “interfere” with her own activities and instincts. Angel is renowned as “watching,” and as “older,” however, he is also “the perfect guy” who also is stunned to find he loves this girl. He has this “immortal” problem, just like his own “Dad” who thought him magnificent (Darla) made by the pure evil “Great Dad.” Obviously, Liam’s father thought him unworthy and the master is representative of Liam’s “God the Father, who doesn’t redeem, but only judges).

          Buffy’s Dad has (evil) power to hurt her and betray her, he can plot to hold her own ignorance and her own failures over her, over and over. Forever. (She can’t quite “kill him death.”) I do feel that “grinding his bones” and “salting them away” under a living tree is the “proof” of moving past this Oedipal relationship with her father, to the sanctuary of the lover, but obviously, the comics don’t).

          AND! The darkness illuminated reveals one learns to know what to see. This perfect guy has this horrible “other” that shames and blames them * both.* This evil one that shamed her, violating her most intimate gift and expression of self, psychically and physically, and her deepest trust again, in utter betrayal was also done “in public” before the “father figure” Giles: “Was it good for you, *TOO *” (Angelus reveals here his OWN corruption, even if by the perfect memory of events of Angel’s experience in the same body).

          Angelus also takes the love/comfort/escape/”normal” away from Giles, in the consummation with Jenny, who is the “dark one” with her own secret; she has the power to end Angelus by the restoration of Angel. But we are shown that it is Angelus who got (psychically)“violated” as he tries to baptismally bathe it away, even as we see him throw Buffy off. ( IOHEFY).

          Spike keeps “hanging around”—no surprise that his “escape” from the “widow” takes him right back to “protecting the widow” in Dru and in Buffy; and offers this ‘harsh truth” of “dwelling in darkness” yet also offering this “I don’t care sexuality” she might have to entice. But that makes her a “bad girl” and that is why HE is annoying. Buffy is mildly aware guys are not trustworthy, but “soul having” does not solve this “immortal problem” in the reality of a human life.

          She also does not kill Angelus (or Spike) even though Angel showed his ability to “move on” beyond the Oedipal pressure of a child in his killing of Darla, with the active choice to protect the lover. (I won’t go into ATS and the endless, eyeroll Oedipal—all three parts; or show runner selection of the month : “it’s amends, no its’s nihislim, so would you believe power? Gotcha, “Let’s do absurdity.”)

          Now Spike becomes the “inappropriate crutch” in having lost “everything” a girl shouldn’t have to lose–and Spike IS the female principle, hence “like with like.”

          No one can control all events “that happen” but how one feels about them is a power, slayer power, that each person has that provides how to “change the past” by “learning” what that pain is teaching. Buffy’s REAL power is not couched in the dark power of he slayer, which she rejects, but in her ability to “live, love, and forgive”: The light.

          Yes, how to endure, survive, but also to *understand * what is IN that dark and unknown, to “know what to see,” and to create new meaning and give oneself the “mercy” to change and grow by NOT continuing to give those “marking events” all power over every future choice , ever limiting the range and horizon of choice in the present.

          “Know what to see” is the most important line in all of the Buffyverse, I think. “Then what happens” is informed ignorance, the path to renewal of innocence.

          Even as Buffy still does everything to keep up appearances, beginning in season 6, while trying to control her pain of loss, by now denigrating its power, *SHE * has shaped in “shame” and “blame”, we see its manifestation with and upon Spike, who is evil and therefore “deserves” abuse, “stands for such self abuse because SHE is the vampire

          She later makes her enemies super sized, as immortals that birthed the immortals, all left from the same old betrayal by Daddy so very long ago and in the sexual awakening and betrayal of her first awakening, consummated in killing “the lover” but not the love.

          Because she has betrayed Angel’s love and trust for “the greater good,” she sends herself to hell, for she now is absurdly alone and must still act in “pure love” she has betrayed within “the other,” all stemming from “conventions” of ordered outcomes of the “good girl.” Therefore, violation is turned onto the self, all expressed as ““lack, ” both physically and psychically”: “Was I not good?”

          Later with Spike, Buffy does not stop. Sex feels good, but it also is the tool of punishment in what she deserves. She is powerless and she literally beneath him, her love meaningless, her secrets literally swept under the rug, as if “dirt” and worthless.

          Buffy sits on the lip of the gutter and specifically asks the mother figure Tara to NOT forgive her because she is completely unable to wield her own power to give herself what she truly needs to grow, because she has now turned her sense of “shame and blame,” onto herself. She has taught herself “blame and shame” are “no surprise,” and that she nd *deserved no less *. She claims her power made her feel superior, but her inability to make necessary changes in her life, her “destiny” make her feel inferior—she can’t “bounce back” into “the new and improved Buffy” at dawn. Love means only duty and offers no solace and worse, is the weapon that impales and hurts the most..

          She has died twice, but Buffy has not learned “the lesson” of death, which is not an ending, but a TRANSFORMATION.

          Afterall, why does a girl who wants “normal” continue to cling to vampires? Why does her power to love and forgive generally exclude herself? Why is “the union of opposites” only actualized with another and not within herself? When did”normal” EVER mean “no pain or struggle?” Death for Buffy meant fulfillment and the end of suffering. Suffering is pain that continues from a past event. And she suffers.

          The third death suggested for this series, is the same as that Joss gave Kitty Pryde of Amazing X men, essentially; and that doesn’t mean she is ‘dead dead” but merely “grew up.”

          And yes, I did wait for the fulfillment of prophecy for “normal” and “mortality” but they showed up in Dawn and Connor and I most certainly and absolutely feel cheated and simply don’t need “more of the same” or an anime eye-d rewrite in ideas that I held as important and relevant in the modern staging and appreciation of old myths.

          I have never ever hidden that I am what is called a Bangel, as the union of opposites is the story that appeals to me, (mythically), while the “story” I actually wanted to see was the achievement of those “pesky prophecies” that always come true somehow, in ‘normal’ and ‘mortal’ in the dance I came to see achieved: adulthood. I don’t see Faith or Spike as either, as they are “shadow side” or “like with like” of the protagonists of the named series, even if I fully agree Spike did shanshu in Chosen and began “another story” that has nothing to do with “the old world.”

          For years I have said that Buffy never took back her own power/agency. This issue is finally “saying something” I hope is satisfying and makes actual progress. And “soul having” is important in the story of good and evil, in the fact people perceive and act for and against their own survival.

          Buffy’s division between Angel and Angelus,was shown to the viewer to be two completely different people, capable of acting in the world with effect. (Faith’s POV in “Orpheus” suggests SHE sees that they not only must be integrated, but that Angelus is the unconscious offering symbolic struggle for Angel to confront and control (subconsciously) as a (human and thus transformed) man of consciousness. Spike’s story is advanced in various methods of control, imposed and self imposed.

          Buffy’s character “habit” to ‘live in the now” was to keep on moving on and “walk it off,” until she was actually “blowing it off,” until she actually crashed and burned in season six.

          She also quite magically not only developed self hate for finding the world in a worse state than when she left it, she felt the contrast of “before” and “now,” so she also developed superior/inferior, according to Joss Whedon, as she continues the pattern (all the way back to the call, that she blames herself for the division of her “before” and “after” in life/home/family.

          Angel was the herald to love, but that the personal and place in the world were separate choices, independent from each other) She was shown in season 7 to STILL confess her real feelings to “the vampire” about things and about the vampire reflecting her struggling indepence to love as an adult, capable of living IN the world, as well.

          Evil once was the “truth teller,” card, shown with “soulless” Spike, “stained with humanity” even as she, “without words” showed us, the viewer, her wakened body in confronting “Angel’s” body, as Angelus smirked and didn’t have to touch her—hence the kick to Angelus’ balls later on).

          I found the rape of season six to be not only shocking, but unaddressed, and mistakenly portrayed.

          Spike is (a male vampire), posed in female principle, demanding and taking abuse from “male principle” Buffy, who is now posed as the dominating vampire beating HER to a pulp. Then we are treated to a male body crawling over a female body, in this physical violation probably meant as a psychic shock to these “female and male” principles into their “correct” opposition held within EACH and within BOTH once more.

          I was not going to take some imposed power story of forming an army—that also removed all “lessons learned” about secrets and humans’ rights to fight for their own survival in Graduation of season * three * that actually show me “maturity” is the point and why death is the means of transformation.

          So! If the story of BTVS is mostly about a girl * avoiding * growing up, we have to see Buffy and the reflection of vampires in her life. That Spike gets a soul and barely a flinch to his physical touch is the conclusion to a violation that actually has Buffy continue to shame and blame herself. Worse, she keeps him around in a co dependence that is supposedly forgiveness, but is diverted to “you have a soul” and “I’m not that man.”

          Well, the idea of a soul having does not eliminate dark impulse, nor does ‘kissing off” one’s past as “irrelevant” seem to work out, as enemies get bigger and, “in the real world,” that “new man and the old murderer” generally would go together off to jail for that past crime. (See Faith).

          The real story isn’t this “side lined” romance with Spike, but the side lined need for something completely different than HIS apology. Buffy hasn’t “apologized” to herself. Buffy has to recognize her depression wasn’t some “need to feel” (loved), but was the need to * not * feel the shocking depths of her pain, into * escape,* but she also expressed the real pain of shame and blame, that “dog” her development.

          Further, Buffy likes sex. Wow. There’s the crime of the century that she (deserved some mythical next level of sex, mistakenly called “BDSM” in rape—to provide the fantasy and shock of its truth), for “change”—when THE
          PROBLEM was to use “the shock” to advance Spike’s “redemption” story and TELL us he had the transformative death, in “gaining the soul.” What did Buffy get? She was shown JEALOUS of another woman on Spike’s arm at Xander’s wedding.

          She got “the whore mother” seeds the dark world for triggering “pogtentials” into a splintered aspect of herself in slayers AND a shiny new REAPER weapon against evil.

          She got Angel’s childishness and she got Spike’s sacrifice, as she killed yet another “father,” and “closed the hell mouth for “good” as she rushes off to the “school bus” for more lessons.

          Uh…not really. She made an army of herself that isolated her into “center of the world” and disconnect. She escapes “paradise” for family, and her father figure, who chose another again, (dark girl around her age, Faith) and HE “sacrifices himself” to “show her” what to do.” True love (that ALSO choose her first).

          Adulthood as surviving slayers, or “removing all the vampires” is NOT her problem. And Hank Daddy showing up to shame her, blame her flat out says so, even as she chooses Spike’s love, continues to think ANY VAMPIRE “works”?

          Some say that Angel was her first idealized love and she should get over it and move on to a mature love. The person who actually “matured” is Xander in confronting the reality of commitment to the “one” while juggling the realities of career, friends, family and the danger that threatens them all “all the time.”

          However, he can face a life with Dawn, and plans on leaving “the life” that would prevent the attainment of “normal.” The reason for ghost Anya is not in the commitment he feels toward marriage, but his own sense he would fail himself (and become his father).

          But, in speaking to (irrelevant/justifying) signals that Buffy spoke against sexual activity with Spike for months, and did say no, does not address how a woman takes such an act and puts the blame onto herself. THAT is why “was it good for you, too” in front of the father, echoes in the protagonsists of both series today.

          I admit I see no value for slayers in the world of “Harmony’s rules” when people both know vampires and worse exist, but they are considered mostly harmless until they arent’t—no differently than are actual people, while great gods almighty and other sledgehammer metaphors drive this narrative off the cliff, if not the rails.

          Afterall, the notion of a god as a “soulless monster” who takes on flesh, is rather clear as some infant, driving parents into absurdity to please this creature and satisfy every demand. I also am surprised in all the worlds of worlds that so many “gods” end up repentant or humanized and were EVER interested in this speck in space to warrant such intrigue in removing or controlling it to become part of it. I haven’t lost sight that the horror genre is built for “agenda” and we always comeback to “free will”—the god killer—and “the human condition” of isolation in “our unique, world building,” perception, and life AS meaningless in a life struggling for purpose in absurdity.

          As for Magic Willow of the new seed and super powers, she simply has outgrown the franchise and belongs in X men, or its like, as she is more plot device than person, just as objects are “abstractions”that are now as heavy handed as “Harry Potter.”

          O/T I do not accept Buffy's love of Spike as "mature" or remotely possible of "That's fine." coming out of Angel's face. EEEEEEEEVVVer, so I'm still done with the comics. This post is regarding rape and the canon offered regarding "soul having" when that isn't how Buffy shames and blames herself when "things happen." I hope the why is clear and that is the path to actual self empowerment. Not the crap I've endured (and personally, it happened to me) for 17 years on this subject.

          HUGS!
          sybil

          Comment


          • #20
            Withholding comments until I've actually read the issue.

            Comment


            • #21
              Just finished reading the issue. Most of it has already been spoiled so I'll just note those things that jumped out at me.

              1: Spike takes showers. That just seems kind of weird to me.

              2: Anya isn't actually Anya. Whatever it is that has her likeness is being used by some behind the scenes entity to manipulate Xander and put him in a vulnerable state, probably to get at Buffy. As of the issues end, Xander is still the only one who knows about not-Anya, although Giles and the detective did come close to realizing something was up.

              I'm intrigued to see where this will end up going. I just hope we won't get a repeat of season 9 with Xander betraying Buffy.
              “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” -- Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #22
                Pointman:

                1: Spike takes showers. That just seems kind of weird to me.
                Hmm - can't remember seeing Spike actually take a shower in the series - but there are clues that he does. Doesn't Xander complain about Spike leaving wet towels in the bathroom and call dibs on the shower first in Season Seven? And doesn't Buffy complain that Spike-in-the-basement smells awful because he's NOT taking showers - which implies that Spike had taken showers in the past. Spike's got a shower in his room on the bugship in Season Eight. And we see him naked with Harmony in the shower in Angel and Faith Season Nine.

                Good question, though. I'd say that eye-penciled and peroxided Spike seems WAY too vain to just leave demon gunk on his hair and body after fighting. Vamps may not smell themselves - no bacteria - but they could still smell like other demons or people - if Spike and Angel use hair products, I imagine they shower as well to remove putrid smells from kills for the benefit of their human companions. I think we also see Harmony brushing her teeth and showering in Angel Season Five.

                I know Angel does several times in his own series.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by American Aurora View Post
                  Pointman:



                  Hmm - can't remember seeing Spike actually take a shower in the series - but there are clues that he does. Doesn't Xander complain about Spike leaving wet towels in the bathroom and call dibs on the shower first in Season Seven? And doesn't Buffy complain that Spike-in-the-basement smells awful because he's NOT taking showers - which implies that Spike had taken showers in the past. Spike's got a shower in his room on the bugship in Season Eight. And we see him naked with Harmony in the shower in Angel and Faith Season Nine.

                  Good question, though. I'd say that eye-penciled and peroxided Spike seems WAY too vain to just leave demon gunk on his hair and body after fighting. Vamps may not smell themselves - no bacteria - but they could still smell like other demons or people - if Spike and Angel use hair products, I imagine they shower as well to remove putrid smells from kills for the benefit of their human companions. I think we also see Harmony brushing her teeth and showering in Angel Season Five.

                  I know Angel does several times in his own series.
                  I guess its just that he wanted to take a hot shower that I find odd. I get wanting to stay clean, but his body temp is lukewarm at best. What benefit would he get from a hot shower? And Now I realize I have spent way too much time talking about Spike in the shower.
                  “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” -- Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by PointMan View Post
                    I guess its just that he wanted to take a hot shower that I find odd. I get wanting to stay clean, but his body temp is lukewarm at best. What benefit would he get from a hot shower? And Now I realize I have spent way too much time talking about Spike in the shower.
                    Heh! Yes, this seems odd to me too. Why wouldn't he take showers? What would he do to keep clean instead?

                    But enough of this.

                    I thought it was a good issue. The stuff with Ghost Anya who isn't was very interesting. I wonder who she was talking to in the cave? My money's on either D'Hoffryn, because he's being way too nice and reasonable about what's written in the Book, or the Sculptor, who might have promised to make Ghost Anya a new body.

                    As for the Buffy/Spike parts, while they won't satisfy anyone who wants to see Spike consigned to the outer darkness forever because of the attempted rape, I thought it was interesting, as it gave us Buffy's POV on what happened for the first time (which is pretty shocking when you think about it - that it's the first time, I mean, and yet more evidence, IMO, that Joss/Marti and co were stupid ever to go there in the first place), while also putting it in its place as only one of a long string of awful things that have happened to Buffy (and far from the worst of those) and which she has to cope with daily. I only wish this issue had taken place before the crossover with Angel. There might (probably not, but there might) have been more depth to the way Buffy dealt with her first meeting with Angel post-Twilight than just 'it wasn't you' and 'oh it's okay that you killed Giles because you brought him back.'

                    I also like that Spike took on board at once that Buffy was finding his guilt-tripping unhelpful, and that what he should be doing in the circumstances is asking her how he can help. I think that was a great step forward for him.

                    I do think the set-up in the bathroom was contrived, though. Obviously, they wanted to hark back to SR, but given that Spike's face in the first scene at the women's shelter makes it pretty clear he 's all too aware what Buffy must be thinking about, I find it hard to believe he'd just walk in on her like that.

                    I don't know if I'm the only person who is disappointed Ghost Anya isn't the real Anya, but I am. I love the character and would gladly have had her back.
                    Last edited by Morphia; 21-10-15, 09:38 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Spike showering just seems logical, he is going to get grubby as has been said. As for the temperature, firstly I don't think you would always get as clean in cold water and I think he was looking to join Buffy and I'm sure she wouldn't have wanted to stay in there if the water ran cold.

                      Originally posted by Morphia View Post
                      I also like that Spike took on board at once that Buffy was finding his guilt-tripping unhelpful, and that what he should be doing in the circumstances is asking her how he can help. I think that was a great step forward for him.
                      My only uncertainty with the way the conversation went between Spike and Buffy is that, whilst I agree that Buffy was the victim of the attack and Spike shouldn't let his guilt press her into reassuring him when she may need to not focus on it at that moment, it is also understandable that Spike might need support around this too. Buffy seeing it being about her, as the victim, is right. But souled!Spike wouldn't have attacked her, something that she knows of course and is part of why she is able to be with him now, but that means that it must also be a difficult memory for him too in a way that feels too narrow to just call guilt as it must also be very personally upsetting. I'm not saying Buffy should be putting her own feelings about what happened to one side to support Spike through dealing with having done that to her, not at all. I don't think she would be the right person necessarily and in the circumstances her not even considering it is totally understandable. But even if he can reason that he wouldn't have attacked her souled, him needing some support, beyond just reassurance over his sense of guilt, but as something he did that he wouldn't have ever chosen to do, isn't unfathomable. It must be difficult for both Angel and Spike to deal with the things they have done and feeling guilt over them but also as they wouldn't, as they are now, have done them, well it must be very distressing. It could just be that their ongoing relationships (not even romantically considered) are what supports this for them of course and that that is enough, I don't know. It could be where Dylan comes in too I suppose, but I'm not sure it will ever be covered as more than just guilt. But the way they covered Buffy's point of view on it, I did think made sense.

                      I do think the set-up in the bathroom was contrived, though. Obviously, they wanted to hark back to SR, but given that Spike's face in the first scene at the women's shelter makes it pretty clear he 's all too aware what Buffy must be thinking about, I find it hard to believe he'd just walk in on her like that.
                      I think the way that they played the scene with Spike just walking into the bathroom talking about the case made it seem like this was possibly a norm for them and that may be why that overrode wondering if it would trigger anything for Buffy.

                      I don't know if I'm the only person who is disappointed Ghost Anya isn't the real Anya, but I am. I love the character and would gladly have had her back.
                      I suspect this was what Levens was saying we would get some light on but that people might hate her for. I think the Anya/Xander stuff is pretty interesting and am also very suspicious of D'Hoffryn.

                      EDIT: The art on Spike was still not great, I just don't like ML's version of him and his big nose and huge clown hands/feet. I also noted that his shirt changed colour after he burst through the window.
                      Last edited by Stoney; 21-10-15, 10:36 AM.

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                      • #26
                        I agree that Spike needs someone to discuss his feelings of guilt with and that the person should not be Buffy.

                        Maybe he should follow Xander's example and have a chat with Dr Mike?

                        I really can't see him doing so with Dylan, who he hardly knows. But then I still can't see what purpose she can possibly serve in the story, except as a catalyst to break up Spike and Buffy, and it's getting pretty late in the day to even use her as that, given that she's had no character development whatsoever.

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                        • #27
                          Well we know from the solicits that he is going to discuss his relationship pattern with someone that is likely to be Dylan (I've assumed). It depends how maudlin he is at the time as to how much he might say and arguably is more likely to do so with someone separate from his 'real' life and the people he lives with. I suppose that is how it works with seeing professionals. But yes, I wouldn't expect that necessarily to go into how he feels about his past anyway in terms of guilt and his souled upset over those actions, or at least not deeply.

                          I think if Dylan really throws a spanner in the works with Buffy/Spike it will come from prompting Spike to think about some aspect of himself that he isn't satisfied with that he feels he needs to be out of the relationship to deal with. So far Buffy and Spike have been working through things that have come up but repeatedly how Spike feels about himself/the issues isn't the focus and that feels deliberate. As a counter love interest I can't see Spike leaving Buffy for Dylan but she could be an ongoing background pressure (with or without them taking a break for his own developmental crisis) if she sticks around. This lass managed to astoundingly stalk him all the way to a city she had no reason to connect him to, that is pretty determined so her seeing he is in a relationship and leaving also seems unlikely.
                          Last edited by Stoney; 21-10-15, 10:48 AM.

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                          • #28
                            I won't have my copy until later in the week so I'm just going off what you guys are saying at this point.But I actually really like that it sounds like that Anya isn't the real Anya.As I've mentioned many times in the past,I don't really care for how many characters have died and been brought back so on the surface without having read the issue yet but I love the sound of this Anya twist.Very intrigued by the sounds of this.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                              Well we know from the solicits that he is going to discuss his relationship pattern with someone that is likely to be Dylan (I've assumed). It depends how maudlin he is at the time as to how much he might say and arguably is more likely to do so with someone separate from his 'real' life and the people he lives with. I suppose that is how it works with seeing professionals. But yes, I wouldn't expect that necessarily to go into how he feels about his past anyway in terms of guilt and his souled upset over those actions, or at least not deeply.

                              I think if Dylan really throws a spanner in the works with Buffy/Spike it will come from prompting Spike to think about some aspect of himself that he isn't satisfied with that he feels he needs to be out of the relationship to deal with. So far Buffy and Spike have been working through things that have come up but repeatedly how Spike feels about himself/the issues isn't the focus and that feels deliberate. As a counter love interest I can't see Spike leaving Buffy for Dylan but she could be an ongoing background pressure (with or without them taking a break for his own developmental crisis) if she sticks around. This lass managed to astoundingly stalk him all the way to a city she had no reason to connect him to, that is pretty determined so her seeing he is in a relationship and leaving also seems unlikely.
                              Agreed. However, Gage is going to have to do a very good job with fleshing out this character very quickly to make her believeable as anything at all. She's just a Mrs Marsters lookalike cypher at this point.

                              Must admit, I assumed the person Spike was going to have this relationship pattern discussion with was going to be Satsu.

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                              • #30
                                Ah could be Satsu I suppose, interesting thought.

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