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Angel & Faith # 15 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • Angel & Faith # 15 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

    Opening the thread.The issue is out tomorrow.

  • #2
    A&F 10.15 bullet points and analysis

    * I actually now wonder whether Angel’s BtVS S8’s actions are going to be blamed on Archaeus.

    * Why isn’t Fred asking Angel about Spike, Gunn, Connor, and Lorne? If the IDW stuff were canon, Fred probably would want to be with Spike instead of Angel especially because of the Illyria situation.

    * Angel has money for a relatively decent London apartment, a laptop, vacation and hotel room money, etc. yet there’s zero indication Angel gave any financial support to anything in the aftermath of BtVS S8 or anytime after regarding the consequences of his BtVS S8 actions.

    * While Faith may have talked to Fred about Spike, we never get an indication such a conversation happened. Spike obviously knows the United Kingdom, has travelled around the world, etc. I actually forget if Illyria knows what Angel did in BtVS S8. Anyway, this Fred situation is contrived. She’d be better off with the Scoobies.

    * Didn’t Angel kill everyone in his home village? Why would there be a 1753 Massacre Tour? In addition, why is Darla featured in such a tour given she didn’t participate in Angel’s killing everyone in his home village? Now suddenly Angel only committed “some mass murders” in Galway?

    So, the flashbacks of “The Prodigal” (A 1.15) are suddenly a lie and Angel didn’t kill everyone in the village? In addition, in the flashback of “Darla” (A 2.07) Darla lied to the Master?
    "His name would already be legend in his home village - had he left anyone alive there to tell the tale." (London 1760 C.E.)
    Obviously, TV canon trumps A&F S10 canon but if Angel didn’t actually kill everyone in his home village it lessens the ‘legend’ of Angel even further than the flashbacks have already done.

    * How does Angel have a credit card?

    * “A team of mystery killers created terror for the upper crust of the city.”

    - So, now Angel and Darla together were killing people and they mostly killed the “upper crust” of Liam’s village?

    - Obviously, Galway wasn’t a ‘city’ in 1753 C.E.

    - Even if used in a modern vernacular or whatever, it’s odd to describe a relatively small time merchant from Galway and such people as “upper crust” at a time of royalty, nobility, aristocrats, landed gentry, high-ranking government officials, ambassadors, etc.

    In addition, “upper crust” in modern times refers to the “upper crust” of the “upper class”.

    * Fred is so okay with Angel that she’s essentially enthused to go on the 1753 Massacre Tour. Her vacation is essentially about getting to know more about Angel.

    * Harmony Kendall is famous in Galway, Ireland.

    * Fred doesn’t even speak during Spike’s phone call with Angel. That makes around zero sense even if all the IDW stuff isn’t canon. AtS s5 is canon; thus, Fred would want Spike to know she’s back.

    * Spike has no comeback to Angel’s snooty “You’d think I would’ve blocked your number by now.”

    * Angel also makes no mention of Drusilla as relates to the Archaeus situation.

    * Fred wants Angel, Faith, and her to be called Angel Investigations.


    * Sierra Hahn: “Fray’s future is still solid.”

    It always made sense that Joss Whedon wasn’t going to make the world of Fray not exist given he completely owns all the non-Buffy and non-Willow parts. Now we know that the editor of the Buffyverse books seems to have been told that the Frayverse remains canon and will continue to exist.


    • #3
      I have to admit I quite liked this. I liked the art as for a change they did seem to be at least attempting to go for an authentic look to the characters. Loved this panel.

      And this

      Also loved the depiction of the costal village. Very nicely done I thought. Yes the story was a bit meh, but as a filler issue I thought it was okay.
      Last edited by Silver1; 03-06-15, 03:17 PM.


      • #4
        Sooo the new issue... It was one of my least favourite issues in A&F this season. It felt like it was used purely to set up for the crossover and didn't make use of the opportunity of Angel having been in Ireland at all. They focused on thoroughly linking back to the dreams again, something that has been dropped for Angel for a time. I had hoped that he would have something he discovered first to take with him to contribute to the situation in SF but that doesn't appear to be the case. Perhaps it will link to 'fear' that was briefly touched on within the issue. The whole plot of the scare tour just seemed shallow and flat tbh so it could give it some purpose. Also, I felt sorry for the poor wickle Gachnar they were bleeding but was distracted by it because I thought he was killed off in a permanent way in BtVS. Anyway, the fear link could be continued I suppose as we saw Illyria emerge to briefly react to and quell the threat to her/Fred, so there is a potential link to 'the demon within' reacting instinctually to a threat. But how that would work for Angel and Spike with it being the fundamental part of them that holds their connection to Archaeus I don't know, so it is probably too much of a side-step/stretch. It was at least nice to see Angel proactively considering the dream issue again anyway, wanting to get to the route of it before he received the call. The fact that Angel was having more current dreams does answer that there doesn't need to be a physical proximity for Archaeus to be able to infiltrate on this level. Perhaps this emphasises the importance of the dreamscape link as a potential arena maybe or perhaps a link to Archaeus' strength.

        Really irritatingly we are mucking up the mythology again. By my understanding of Gage's eventual explanations, Archaeus is not Spike’s Great Great Great Grandsire because he didn’t sire The Master. Archaeus isn't a vampire he just provided the demon essence from hell. Every vampire gets demon essence as a contribution to animate them. It being sent from hell is triggered by (what I think of as) the siring ritual of biting/draining/blood sharing with the sire vampire and the human. So the three elements are the demon essence from hell, the blood of the sire and the personality/body of the human. Most demons that contribute essence are standard and no link remains, Archaeus is powerful and was able to choose then whether to contribute to The Master's progeny down the line. So the essence that Archaeus has in Spike and in Angel he contributed specifically to them each time, their link with him is due to the connection The Master gave him but he chose to provide it and it doesn't place Archaeus in the bloodline as he is only linked by the demon, making them of his line, just in a different way. I think they really have made an utter mess of this aspect and it is a mess that is totally needless, they should have pinned it down properly.

        The only other thing that stood out to me I later changed my mind on. At first when Fred seemed almost dismissive in her mention of Wes, missing him but it just making her think about how much more travelled he was, I was totally wtf?!? And then, considering Angel voiced his concern about his dreams and them feeling like memories, Fred wanting to push to go on the tour felt somewhat blinkered and insensitive. If she had been putting it forward as relevant and possibly helpful at first maybe, but it was voiced as something that would be ‘a hoot’. So initially I thought both of these seemed really off, but then I changed my mind. Actually thinking back Fred could be a little socially inept and a little tunnel visioned, that sometimes resulted in being a little blunt and insensitive. So nah, I actually think this is pretty good characterisation.

        A couple of little art thoughts, I quite liked Will's Spike apart from his hand seeming huge in the first panel he is in and the last panel of him he looks a bit odd, different facially to the previous which was strange. And I wish they would drop the claws thing, it really irritates me. The fact that Angel has been sporting them too just makes a nonsense of Gage's attempt to brush over it with Spike 'trying them out' because Dru did. There is no logic or sense, so please get rid I say! On a positive note, I thought Fred laying back arms wide on the bed was a gorgeous little touch.


        • #5
          The only other thing that stood out to me I later changed my mind on. At first when Fred seemed almost dismissive in her mention of Wes, missing him but it just making her think about how much more travelled he was, I was totally wtf?!?
          Yes, that was weird wasn't it. I'm afraid I put it down to the fact the comic writers really don't seem all that familiar with the original source material, or they just choose to ignore it so as to better their take on the characters.


          • #6
            But Fred could be very odd in the social side of her interactions. I just put it down to a mix of being a super smart nerd and all those years isolated in Pylea. So she could sometimes be clueless in a way that made her seem a mixture of childish, insensitive or just blunt/to the point that seemed to lack emotion. Her suggestion Wes dated after she got together with Gunn fits the kind of thing I'm thinking of. You can argue of course that if she was there, under the surface with Illyria all along (a retcon I really don't like) then she has had time to come to terms with his death. But as this is the first time the audience has had her back it did seem overly blunt, even if that odd matter of fact unaware behaviour can be in character for her. It just read like the mention to him was forced in with a really poor segue used about travel to move them to go pointlessly over to Ireland. There was no payoff for either the mention or the trip, it could have been anyone she knew and anywhere they went. An odd issue.

            EDIT: I know their skin tone varied over the different series but how tanned does Angel look in that panel you put in above, ha!


            • #7
              I still found it rather ooc that she would mention Wes to only centre of that element. You'd think it would be more about still missing him rather then "oh he traveled more then me".


              • #8
                Yes you're right. I have tried to find some logic in the writing and even if that element of characterisation is in there it was still extremely blank emotionally.


                • #9
                  Haven't read the issue yet. The art looks great, though.


                  • #10
                    And I wish they would drop the claws thing,
                    Although Spike and Angel have never been depicted sporting clawed hands in the show, other vampires have in the past. In the first episode of season 2 the vamps uncovering the Masters bones were all sporting very long nails indeed.


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                      I still found it rather ooc that she would mention Wes to only centre of that element. You'd think it would be more about still missing him rather then "oh he traveled more then me".
                      Honestly if you think about it, Fred wasn't nearly as attached to Wes as he was to her, as recently as Life of the Party she was obliviously talking to him about being interested in Knox. He on the other hand had been pining after her for years.
                      I think maybe Illyria might have been more attached to Wes than Fred is.


                      • #12
                        I suppose so. I thought Fred was quite thrown about relationship wise during her time on AtS, and so maybe second guessing her is difficult.

                        I just think that maybe she wouldn't have said something quite so thoughtless sounding?


                        • #13
                          I got Angel & Faith # 15 over the weekend.I liked the issue but do agree with others that it was basically filler and setup for the crossover.