Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Angel & Faith # 10 Issue Discussion Thread.(Full Spoilers)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Buffy went after Faith to take her to feed to Angel and was glad in part out of vengeance, her reason/choice wasn't sound and in step with her duty for the reasons she took it.
    Buffy's reasons for going after Faith were partly wrong, no doubt, and the timing was off (because of the usual "let's wait for the season finale before the big showdowns" trope) but in my opinion killing Faith was very much justified in that situation. She was helping somebody destroy an entire town and this somebody controlled the police in said town, hence the law wasn't an option. You can say they could have tried to capture her, but then again you can say that about any vampire or demon.

    And in any event you said "It is the same reason Buffy was not OK to go after Faith irrespective of what she had done and was doing. ", so I presume you wouldn't have approved it if the attempt to kill Faith had had nothing to do with vengeance or saving a vampire. Personally, I don't hide my dislike of Faith, but that's not (the whole reason) why I think killing her would have been justified. I just dislike the "magical third option" plots, where the protagonist somehow avoids dirtying their hands and a horrible choice between the lesser of two evils becomes a trite plot of having your cake and eating it too. Or protagonists who seem perfectly okay with the villain keeping on killing innocent people because it would be 'wrong" to kill the villain even if he or she has proven no jail can hold him/her (Joke and Batman come to mind).

    And of course, after the demons in later seasons became more like alien races than actual totally evil demonic creatures, Buffy et al. willingness to kil lthem with no hesitation, while sparing even the vilest of humans got a distinctly specie-ist and silly undertone.
    Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
      Buffy's reasons for going after Faith were partly wrong, no doubt, and the timing was off (because of the usual "let's wait for the season finale before the big showdowns" trope) but in my opinion killing Faith was very much justified in that situation. She was helping somebody destroy an entire town and this somebody controlled the police in said town, hence the law wasn't an option. You can say they could have tried to capture her, but then again you can say that about any vampire or demon.
      But that wasn't why she went to take her down. If that was her reasoning and it was discussed and decided that they had to take her out because of her supernatural threat, that capturing her for the human legal system wasn't going to be viable, I would feel differently about it. But that isn't why Buffy went after her and the point I was saying was that people being targeted for vengeance is not a way society works.

      And in any event you said "It is the same reason Buffy was not OK to go after Faith irrespective of what she had done and was doing.", so I presume you wouldn't have approved it if the attempt to kill Faith had had nothing to do with vengeance or saving a vampire.
      I was meaning that Buffy's reason for going after Faith had nothing to do with Faith's supernatural threat. I wouldn't be pro Faith getting killed as a premeditated, out of the battle assassination, but I would have been more comfortable with it if they had discussed and realised that they couldn't have her arrested, couldn't get the council there in time, had no way to contain her and then for reasons entirely based on needing to take her out of the battle because of her threat felt they had no choice. I still wouldn't have been totally comfortable with it, outside of a life and death in battle necessity, but it would have at least been something they were taking very seriously when by Buffy's own definition of her boundaries, they were stepping into an, at best, a murky area.

      Comment


      • #33
        I finally got around to reading this issue, and I really liked it! This is only the second issue of A&F in season 10 that I've felt that about (the first was the one where Angel and the aunts fought one of the new vampires). Up to now, it felt like there were interesting things going on, but not nearly enough time spent on them, while boring stuff (like the Faith in the jungle story, and the abortive Amy plot) had way too many panels wasted on them. But at least Faith is back in London and she and Angel are back together. They just make such a great time. I loved the panel of them hugging.

        I'm also overjoyed to get the real, actual Fred back. And to see the aunts, and the Faith/Nadira meeting etc, etc. It feels like the story is finally getting somewhere.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by MikeB View Post
          Wow. You like Angel more than Nadira. And how is Nadira in A&F S10 more contrived than Angel’s being alive after BtVS 8.39 and how the Buffyverse post-BtVS 8.39 have treated Angel and everyone’s relationships with Angel?
          Wow. Yeah. I do like Angel more than Nadira because I find him to be a more interesting character, especially with how Nadira is being written in season 10. Her cryptic dialogue makes her seem like a poor man's Drusilla and I have always disliked characters who pull random magic powers out of their ass to suit the plot because I find that lazy and boring. I find Angel's overall story to be far more interesting than Nadira's and yes, I am able to suspend my disbelief that he wasn't summarily killed after season 8.

          Why do I have to justify my character preferences to you anyway?

          * Joss Whedon killed Winifred Burkle off and replaced her with Illyria mainly because Fred was no longer relatively useful to the Fang Gang and the fight against evil – certainly compared to a being like Illyria
          I guess Buffy should drag Xander and Dawn down to the Deeper Well then, and have them killed and replaced by superpowered beings. Who cares about the personal relationships between the characters, it's all about what superpowers you have!


          [quote] Fred in Season 10 is relatively even less useful in the fight against evil compared to Illyria. Fred’s resurrection seems to be almost purely a ‘gift’ to Angel.[quote]

          I find Fred's resurrection and the possible conflict between her, Illyria and Koh a hell of a lot more interesting than the way Illyria was written in season 9.


          Moreover, Angel’s remaining alive has infinitely more “cheapened the concept of death” than all of the resurrections you mentioned combined.
          Angel's remaining alive is merely continuing a pattern that Buffy demonstrated many times during the show where she would repeatedly allow a villain to live for no other reason than the fact of them being an important character. The plethora of characters who return from the dead do indeed cheapen the concept of death because the reinforce the notion of death in the Buffyverse being a revolving door.

          I remember that you don’t want Spike to have any of Beck, Spider and Co., and Morgan as members of his own gang yet you want Angel to literally have more support than he already does.
          Its not about me "not wanting" Spike to have the support of Beck and Spider, it's about me recognizing the reality of the situation where they are IDW characters and Dark Horse is probably never going to utilize them.

          It’s telling that you think that quote deserved a laughing emoticon. German Chancellor Adolf Hilter wanted to kill millions of Jews and others and wanted to restore Germany to greatness. Angel in BtVS S8 wanted to destroy the world and all its life merely to be able to have Buffy and he remaining in Twilight. So, yes, that “at least 1,000 worse than Adolf Hitler” is accurate. [...] * Comparing Angel to a mob boss is beyond laughable. Osama bin Laden – whose crimes are miniscule compared to Angel’s – was shot and killed. German Chancellor Adolf Hitler wasn’t likely going to be ‘taken into custody’ to stand trial.
          I'm not going to debate with you what Angel's intentions were during Twilight. You've got your interpretation, and Christos Gage has his, and I know whose opinion holds more weight with me. Not to mention that the actual death toll for the Twilight apocalypse was never stated in the story and for all we know it could merely be the couple of hundred Slayers that were mentioned. That said, I think it's in incredibly poor taste that you compare a fictional character like Angel, to a real life war criminals like Adolf Hitler or Osama bin Laden. I think it's in very poor taste to dismis bin Laden's very real crimes as "minuscule" compared to Angel's fictional crimes all for the sake of an internet pissing contest. You don't know who could be reading these posts who were personally affected by WWII or 9/11.

          * Do you actually consider there is no difference between Angel’s at least 3 times trying to kill everyone on Earth and what other characters have done?
          You say this all the time, and it's really a minor point but I wanted to mention it anyhow. Angel has caused two apocalypses by my count, Acathla and Twilight. And aren't you the one who also tries to attribute Acathla to Drusilla?

          Some of Riley’s fighting ability makes around no sense if he’s not at least partly superhuman and/or supernatural. We now have his fight against Adam-Forrest Gates (“Primeval” (B 4.21)), his fight against Harmony Kendall (“Out of My Mind” (B 5.04)) and now A&F S10 and his fight against New Rules Vampires.
          Riley is entirely human. He's just very well trained. And his plot armour allows him to kill vampires who have none, even if the vampires have better stats on paper. Your idea that Riley is superhuman is against the established canon and it's pretty ridiculous.

          While in posts on this Board and on SA my regard from Angel seems to be the outlier, in terms of the overall readership my regard seems to be how most have regarded post-BtVS S8.
          Gotta love how you admit that your opinions are the outliers when it comes to the forums, but you assume that there must be thousands of fans out there who are silently agreeing with you.

          Comment

          Working...
          X