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Angel & Faith # 8 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • Angel & Faith # 8 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

    The issue is out tomorrow so I'm opening the thread.

  • #2
    I do enjoy reading this title and have liked the Dark Horse work VG has done. I find the two stories are intriguing enough that I am always left wanting to know more at the end of each issue. Having said that, I am finding it a little slow paced. For example, the whole pharmacist visit seemed to lack a purpose unless it was to just be another example of Angel doing the detective thing, and/or be another example of someone predicting his movements/pulling his strings, and/or because the pharmacist will become relevant again. Also, there were quite a few pages showing another memory/dream/possibly reality combo. It keeps that issue in the story ‘live’ and emphasises how troubled he is by it, but it gave us nothing more around it, so it seemed a lot of lost space. Plus, anyone who didn’t feel they were being deliberate about his drinking needs to just take a moment and stare at page 6. It is now officially and undeniably flagged and overdone to a crispy crisp! I suspect some of all this is just that they are placing in details that with hindsight would pad it out and pictured as a whole this time of building up/repeating may work just fine. I still have faith in VG and I really do like the overall tone, particularly of Angel’s part.

    The Alasdair scene was good and it works well that Angel would call on these people for help, even if he is obviously feeling very isolated. I’m not worried about leaving him in Amy’s magical fisty clutches, he presumably has the magic munching critter with him as he knew he was going to go in there and would provoke her. I note the pointed reference to Willow again, verbal this time, and it came with a challenge as to whether she would even be powerful enough to stop Amy. It could just be a bit of evil gloating and revealing hints before finishing off the good guy, but it could be a ruse that she is going to kill him and this was an intended prompt for Angel by her.

    It was interesting to note that as Angel was arriving Amy was saying to her jar of Warren goo “You know, Darling, if we actually could bring you back…” which seemed to clearly imply that wasn’t her primary focus/goal (which I think we suspected anyhoo). I have to say though I was surprised that she seemed surprised at Angel’s refusal. I don’t know if that was feigned, it didn’t appear so, it could have just been irritating to her if it complicates her plans and she genuinely thought he was going to be more malleable than that. I did enjoy him pretty much telling her to stuff it.

    I seem to be in the minority but I don’t enjoy Faith’s side of things as much in the main. Again we didn’t really cover new ground but she got to hash out her Riley issue with Sam a bit. That does lead me to feel it isn’t as likely that we will see her address it with him, not to any depth anyway. They do seem to be pointedly having Mai sticking alongside her and the double staking/matched poses panel seemed very specific. It was too small to tell really but none of the tied up prisoners looked thickset enough for Mr Zane (if I am remembering right). He may well be their illustrious leader.

    The art is mostly great. I don’t find the angles thing bothers me that some have remarked about before. In fact I don't even notice it so I can't say how rife it was this issue. The close up of Angel when he was told the name of the magic eating demon was a bit ropey though. Whereas the one of Amy just as Angel says that she might be right is incredible, the clearest likeness to the actress we’ve had I think. It does always tickle me how ultra ripped they show Angel too, I know, it's a comic thing. The Dark Horse Jack D bottle gave me a grin, but, unfortunately, I frowned too when we still had a dominant green/red demon population.

    Possibly a bit spoilery from the letters(?)
    Spoiler:
    Sierra repeats someone's use of ‘Ghost Anya’ in her reply to their mention. I am going to be really surprised if that turns out to not just be the truth of the situation now (I think we had pretty much got to that point anyway).


    That’s all from me.
    Last edited by Stoney; 05-11-14, 10:20 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm enjoying this series, but it's very slow. Each month we are really only getting half and issue devoted to Angel, and half an issue devoted to Faith. Seems like with BtVS we get a lot more "meat" on the story because the gang isn't so separated all the time.

      The artwork here is really nice as always. I'm happy we get to see Alistair again. I hope we get to see him kicking ass now that magic is back. He was supposed to be an "archmage", in theory he could be more powerful than Amy or Willow. He's certainly got more experience, and he's living in the middle of all the potent magic in Magic Town.

      I think Angel is developing a drinking problem. I like how Jack Daniels has been re-branded as Dark Horse whiskey... not subtle at all there. But yeah, drinking first thing when you wake up is not a good thing. Angel was an alcoholic back when he was a human and it seems he rarely touched booze since becoming a vampire (unless you want to count that one comic, Long Night's Journey, where Angel went through a phase of substituting his bloodlust with booze). Angel drinking a lot of alcohol is clearly intentional, I hope it's something that gets explored and what it means for him. It's something he used to do as a human, but again, it's something that isn't healthy. I think we've seen him drinking almost every issue now.

      I'm finding the Faith side of things to be a bore. Pretty much nothing happened this issue. They killed some sentries and approached the base. I really hope Riley doesn't just insta-forgive Faith and gloss over it. What she did to him really was a horrible violation.

      I still don't find Sam Finn to be an interesting character at all. I kinda hope she gets killed off, might make Riley more interesting. I don't find any of Faith's coworkers to be interesting either. I wonder who the vampire leader will be, really hope it's not Wood. Perhaps it's that short-haired girl's father.

      Like Stoney, I also picked up on Amy's line "You know, Darling, if we actually could bring you back…". It makes it sound like bringing Warren back isn't Amy's primary goal, or she's acknowledging that it's not actually possible. Angel sure was a dick when he came into the room though. He pretty much acknowledges that he's okay with his hypocritical behaviour. When he wants to resurrect Giles or cause an apocalypse in the name of the greater good it's all cool, but he's the first to step up to stop someone else from doing the same. What he should have at least tried to do was explain the key differences between resurrecting Giles versus resurrecting Warren:

      For starters, Giles had an intact and well preserved corpse, whereas Warren is a puddle of guts in a jar. (Also, how on earth did Amy collect Warren's guts? They were in a random cafe when he disolved, she had no access to magic, surely the police would have been involved and wouldn't let her tamper with evidence like that!)

      Giles left a bunch of horcruxes lying around with fragments of his soul in them because, Warren did not do this.

      The main portion of Giles's soul was inside Eyghon, therefore it hadn't moved on to the afterlife. Unless Warren made a secret deal with a demon that we don't know about, Warren's soul probably has moved on.

      The resurrection of Giles required a bunch of rare or unique artefacts that were all destroyed by Whistler, Nash and Pearl when they made the magic plague ball.

      The spell also seemed to require five people who knew and loved Giles. If Amy recruited Warren's parents, Andrew and herself, that's four people *if* the parents are easily accessible and they are both in the picture. Andrew recently stomped on Warren's DNA and AI, so its questionable if he'd even help. Giles came out of the spell as a twelve year old because the aunts focused on their memories of him as a child. Amy's memories of Warren would be of him as a skinless guy so who knows how that would affect the spell.

      When Angel resurrected Giles, there was no "background magic" in the atmosphere. Now, there is "new magic" which is poorly understood by pretty much everyone, as well as the raw and unpredictable magic of Magic Town.

      In short, Angel could have politely pointed out that there is a number of things preventing Warren from being resurrected in the same manner as Giles. The body and soul were in a completely different condition, there was no interference from unpredictable background magic, he had access to rare artefacts that no longer exist and he had the help of other magic practitioners who knew and loved Giles. I think Angel could have tried to explain this before bursting through the door deciding to be a hypocritical and confrontational douche.

      I notice that he's wearing a long jacket when he confronts Amy and this is after he's had his talk with Alistair about the creatures that feed on magic. Could Angel be hiding something under his coat? I'm imagining something like the Ysalamir from the Star Wars expanded universe: wearable lizard like creatures that repel the Force or in this case, feed on magic. I think introducing such a creature into the Buffyverse would be a really great idea as it would be a much needed nerf to the overpowered magic.

      Comment


      • #4
        I have Angel & Faith #8,"Lost And Found Part III."

        Overal a good issue.Angel & Faith in season 10 has been a slow burn up to this point.I still hope they start bringing the Angel and Faith stories together beginning in year two(after issue 12).

        The Faith portion I thought was juicy with Faith and Sam discussing the body swithing incident.And I like that Sam points out that she isn't the person to forgive Faith,it's Riley.Glad Riley is still alive even though he looks in bad shape.

        In the Angel portion of the issue,it was nice seeing Alasdair again.And as others have pointed out,it does seem Angel is drinking a lot so I assume that is something that will become a plot point.

        It does seem Amy is up to something more then just wanting Warren back and man that ending once again shows she's bad news.

        So again,liked the issue.

        Also a review of the issue

        http://www.geekedoutnation.com/revie...h-season-10-8/

        Comment


        • #5
          A&F 10.08 bullet points and analysis


          * To begin, I actually now like Will Conrad’s artwork in A&F S10. I’ve gotten used to it and it works well for the comic.



          CURSED ANGEL’S STORY:


          * Regarding Cursed Angel’s dream, the present-day massacre certainly wasn’t an actual memory of Angel’s.


          * Alasdair is happy to see Cursed Angel. You know, the guy responsible for Magic Town existing and for Alasdair no longer having the magical artifacts he used to have.


          * The Pharmacist doesn’t seem to know about what Angel did in BtVS S8. The “reputation” to which he’s referring is most likely Cursed Angel’s muscling people around in Magic Town.


          * “Young woman” isn’t much of a description for someone who would shop at a ‘Magic Shop’ in Magic Town. Why didn’t Cursed Angel give The Pharmacist a better description of Amy Madison? Why didn’t he draw a picture of Amy and show it to him.

          - In Sunnydale, could Willow be identified as “a young woman recently visited your magic shop”?


          * Why doesn’t Amy Madison have the magic bottles in a secure location? Why aren’t they in a vault?


          * Warren Meers was selfish and evil; he was never apocalyptic. Warren far more deserves to live than Cursed Angel does.


          * Cursed Angel is truly delusional. He thought he could go to Amy Madison’s home, be selfish, tell her off, and just expected to leave unharmed.


          * Has Amy Madison gone ‘black eyes’ before?


          * If Amy Madison manages to actually murder Cursed Angel, she’d be doing a very good thing and should be lauded and celebrated.


          FAITH’S STORY:

          * Stuff happened. Perhaps Sam Finn is flattered that Riley managed to have sex with Buffy and with Faith. Perhaps Sam considers it says something about her that she’s able to so satisfy Riley after he’s been with Slayers.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
            I think Angel could have tried to explain this before bursting through the door deciding to be a hypocritical and confrontational douche.
            It could be down to a lack of sleep on Angel's part(!) but I wouldn't be surprised if he took that tact specifically to try and rile her, to test her. I think there was purpose/intent to it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MikeB View Post
              A&F 10.08 bullet points and analysis


              * To begin, I actually now like Will Conrad’s artwork in A&F S10. I’ve gotten used to it and it works well for the comic.



              CURSED ANGEL’S STORY:


              * Regarding Cursed Angel’s dream, the present-day massacre certainly wasn’t an actual memory of Angel’s.
              I'm really beginning to suspect they're going to pull a Tyler Durden on it.

              Amy's reaction is a little off considering she doesn't seem to think bringing him back is possible. She says she doesn't need him, but why even tell him about it then? Maybe she intends to bring someone back, but not Warren.

              I do think he was being deliberately antagonistic in his reply and we can surmise that he has one of those magic eater things. Chekhov's Gun.

              It seems again that Angel's story is the only one they've put much thought into. Even moving at a half an issue a month it has progressed further than the Faith side and the Buffy comic as well, both of which are running in place.

              Comment


              • #8
                Finally read the issue. The Faith story is so dull I just wanted to skip those pages. The Angel story is more interesting, but as usual with Angel, on his own he's a little dull. He needs an ensemble cast around him.

                I am intrigued by who, or what, is giving him these killing dreams, though. I suspect it may be Nadira. Maybe she's not as over her hatred of him as she makes out.

                Not a good comic at all. The Buffy one is much better.

                Art is nice, though.

                Comment


                • #9
                  All caught up

                  Here’s my bullet points and analysis so I don’t repeat stuff: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...l=1#post701425 It’s post #5 on page .

                  I’ve read up to and including A&F 10.11, so I will not address stuff already known.





                  * Regarding my saying this: “ FAITH’S STORY:

                  * Stuff happened. Perhaps Sam Finn is flattered that Riley managed to have sex with Buffy and with Faith. Perhaps Sam considers it says something about her that she’s able to so satisfy Riley after he’s been with Slayers.” [/quote] I was mostly simply trying to come up with something to say about Faith’s story. I did say “perhaps” and my analysis is valid.




                  Stoney

                  * Victor Gischler has an almost impossible job. The whole Cursed Angel in Magic Town thing makes around zero logical sense in-verse but that’s what Gischler was handed. Faith has been very tarnished by A&F S9 and her story is mostly filler until she inevitably comes back to Angel’s story. I blame the problems in A&F S10 on ‘Dark Horse’, Christos Gage, and Joss Whedon. I don’t blame Gischler.

                  Gischler wrote some great stuff in BtVS S9: Spike and other than Spike no longer having a space ship, nothing of that carried forward. Who knows how much power Gischler actually has regarding A&F S10.

                  I have to say though I was surprised that [Amy Madison] seemed surprised at Angel’s refusal.
                  Cursed Angel’s interactions with Amy Madison is more silly than if Spike in BtVS S5 actually thought he could beat Glory up. Amy could easily dust Angel. Angel is not much of a threat to Amy. The implied threat from Amy is that if Angel doesn’t help her, she’ll kill him.

                  I did enjoy him pretty much telling her to stuff it.
                  Why? Cursed Angel’s telling Amy to ‘stuff it’ makes no sense ‘in-verse unless he wants to do a version of ‘suicide by cop’. In addition, Angel has less than zero moral authority over Amy.



                  Vampire in Rug

                  * It seems to be canon since BtVS S8 at-latest that Willow Rosenberg is the most powerful witch and warlock on Earth. Why would Alasdair Coames possibly be more powerful than Willow (other than to further reward Cursed Angel for his BtVS S8 actions that is)? Lavinia Fairweather and Sophronia Fairweather each have over 100 years more experience with magic than Willow does. Willow is more powerful than both of them combined.


                  * We are never told by the Buffyverse or Joss Whedon that Liam or Angel is an alcoholic.

                  I really hope Riley doesn't just insta-forgive Faith and gloss over it. What she did to him [regarding the body switch] really was a horrible violation.
                  Didn’t Riley “insta-forgive [Angel] and gloss over [what Angel did in BtVS S8?] It’s obvious that Riley didn’t tell anyone in the United States Government or any other government who Twilight was and/or what Angel did in BtVS S8; otherwise, Angel would have been killed. I’m not sure if Riley would think what Faith did to Riley in “Who Are You?” (B 4.16) is worse than what Cursed Angel did to him in “The Yoko Factor” (B 4.20).

                  I still don't find Sam Finn to be an interesting character at all. I kinda hope she gets killed off, might make Riley more interesting.
                  Yet you don’t want Angel to have been killed off after BtVS 8.39. Sam Finn’s getting killed off wouldn’t make Riley more interesting, it would make A&F even worse than it already is. In BtVS S8, Sam allowed Riley to work for Buffy. Sam is heroic in BtVS S8 and in A&F S10. Yet you want her to be killed off and you want Angel to still be alive.


                  * The actual canon is that AngelTwilight did what he did in BtVS S8 to be able to be with Buffy. AngelTwilight wasn’t doing what he did “for the greater good”. Cursed Angel’s lying to Willow in A&F S9 is simply that.


                  * No one was able to reason with Cursed Angel in A&F S9 regarding why he shouldn’t be trying to resurrect Rupert Giles. And what he was doing was many times more dangerous than what Amy Madison is trying to do. Why would Cursed Angel be able to reason with Amy regarding why she shouldn’t be trying to resurrect Warren Meers? And while Cursed Angel could ‘muscle’ Alasdair Coames, Amy could simply kill Cursed Angel if he refuses to help her.


                  * The magic use in BtVS S8 and after makes many times more sense than Angel’s still being alive after BtVS 8.39.



                  HardlyThere

                  I'm really beginning to suspect they're going to pull a Tyler Durden on it.
                  If Angel is actually killing people again, that’s simply another reason why he should be dusted.


                  * A lot more in going on in BtVS S10 than is going on in A&F S10 and other than Buffy and Spike not being together, the BtVS S10 actually makes sense. The whole Magic Town thing makes almost zero sense. New Rules Vampires being able to be killed as if they are zombies makes almost no sense. And it makes Buffy and Co. seem stupid to be out there fighting NRVs with swords and the Scythe and whatnot when it seems they could be out there with guns and that the police departments and the military would be able to deal with the NRVs.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Faith has been very tarnished by A&F S9 and her story is mostly filler until she inevitably comes back to Angel’s story. I blame the problems in A&F S10 on ‘Dark Horse’, Christos Gage, and Joss Whedon. I don’t blame Gischler.
                    Gischler could have written something of substance for Faith. The Riley arc in the jungle could have been done much better. Faith could have had an issue where she caught up with Robin Wood and reflected on stuff. Maybe Eldre Koh could have hung out with Faith for a while before they went to London together. I don't think it's fair to absolve Gischler of all blame for Faith's subpar storyline this season.

                    And why are you blaming Joss Whedon for anything? Isn't he the ultimate arbiter of canon, isn't his word gospel? Isn't "because Joss Whedon said so" the ultimate smack-down to settle fan debates? Joss wants Angel alive for season 10, shouldn't that be good enough for you? Who is the better storyteller, Joss or you?

                    As for Christos Gage... At the end of the day it boils down to a matter of opinion, but I assert that Gage's A&F season 9 was better than Gischler's A&F season 10. I'll also assert that Gage's BtVS season 10 is better than Chambliss's BtVS season 9. He's one of the best writers we've had in recent years.

                    Cursed Angel’s interactions with Amy Madison is more silly than if Spike in BtVS S5 actually thought he could beat Glory up. Amy could easily dust Angel. Angel is not much of a threat to Amy. The implied threat from Amy is that if Angel doesn’t help her, she’ll kill him.
                    I've always argued that magic in the Buffyverse is way too overpowered. That said, the power gap between Angel and Amy isn't as ridiculous as the power gap between Spike and Glory. For all of Amy's magic powers, she still has a normal human's strength, speed, durability and reaction time. She's more or less a Squishy Wizard. It's been a while since I read the issue, but Angel was able to survive Amy's ice attack by being strong enough to break the ice, durable enough that the cold wouldn't instantly kill him and fast enough so that he could trip her and escape out the window with the jar of Warren. Glory on the other hand, is stronger, faster, more durable and likely has better reflexes than Angel, Spike or Amy. The only thing Amy has over Glory is the ability to float and do ranged attacks. Glory's strong enough that she could throw things at a floating Amy (maybe even leap up to her), and durable enough that she can shrug off most magical attacks. Willow was merely able to hurt her temporarily.

                    Why? Cursed Angel’s telling Amy to ‘stuff it’ makes no sense ‘in-verse unless he wants to do a version of ‘suicide by cop’. In addition, Angel has less than zero moral authority over Amy.
                    1) why do you keep calling him "Cursed Angel"?

                    2) do you think Angel is morally obligated to actually help Amy resurrect Warren? If Angel agreed to it, I imagine you'd criticize him for it, be honest now.

                    It seems to be canon since BtVS S8 at-latest that Willow Rosenberg is the most powerful witch and warlock on Earth. Why would Alasdair Coames possibly be more powerful than Willow
                    No reason, I'm merely speculating. We haven't seen Alistair Coames in action yet since magic was restored to the world, so he could be as strong with magic as the writers want him to be. I like the idea of an elderly, physically frail guy being strong with magic. Also, he has the title of "archmage". He's not merely referred to as a "mage" or "warlock." We don't yet know what the distinction is, but "archmage" sounds like a pretty big deal. That's not to say that he necessarily is more powerful than Willow, but I could certainly accept it if he was on par with her.

                    We are never told by the Buffyverse or Joss Whedon that Liam or Angel is an alcoholic.
                    Not explicitly but he was frequently shown being drunk and was described by his own father as a "drunken, whoring layabout." I think Liam certainly enjoyed alcohol more than is healthy, and I think it's interesting that Angel is shown in season 10 to be drinking alcohol more than he should.

                    Yet you don’t want Angel to have been killed off after BtVS 8.39. Sam Finn’s getting killed off wouldn’t make Riley more interesting, it would make A&F even worse than it already is. In BtVS S8, Sam allowed Riley to work for Buffy. Sam is heroic in BtVS S8 and in A&F S10. Yet you want her to be killed off and you want Angel to still be alive.
                    Regarding Sam Finn being killed off vs Angel... for starters, I'm not sure why I'm obligated to explain my own character preferences to you. But if you must know why I prefer Angel as a character to Sam, it's because Sam has (for me) committed the worst sin a fictional character can commit: she's boring. So no, I don't care that she's "heroic" and I don't care that she "allowed" Riley to work for Buffy. I find her to be a very boring, clichéd and poorly written character. I found her to be a Mary Sue from the moment she showed up in "As You Were", the writers were trying WAY too hard to hammer home the idea that she's nice, agreeable and not at all threatened by or jealous of Buffy. I think she's just a very lame character. In fact, I found her to be the lamest character in the Buffyverse right up until season 9 when she was surpassed by Billy and Devon.

                    Say what you will about Angel, but at least he's got more complexity than Sam Finn. I see more narative value in Angel than Sam. I'm more likely to buy an Angel comic than a Sam Finn comic.

                    And just because Angel has done horrible things in the past doesn't necessarily mean that he's a bad character or that the audience can't enjoy his story. Some of my favourite characters are villains. Two of the most popular and iconic villains of all time are Darth Vader and the Joker. Both characters have done absolutely horrific things over the years, in fact they put Angel and Twilight to shame. And yet they are both hugely popular characters who have sold a shitload of merchandise.

                    You seem to think that if a character does something evil they should become unpopular, as though character popularity is something linear that correlates with how good/evil they are, and destroying the world is something that should make audiences instantly disinterested in a character. That's not the case at all and it's a very narrow way to look at things.

                    Cursed Angel’s lying to Willow in A&F S9 is simply that.
                    Have you ever thought about writing to Scott Allie or Christos Gage and telling them that they are wrong about their own story? I'm sure they would appreciate you correcting them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I’m not going to respond to straw man arguments.

                      I’m going to try to avoid responding to speculation.





                      Vampire in Rug

                      * I remember that Victor Gischler says that Christos Gage is involved in A&F S10.

                      Gischler could have written something of substance for Faith.
                      But would he be allowed? We knew Faith was eventually going to go be back with Angel. It was assumed that Faith’s story was never going to be allowed to outshine Angel’s story.


                      * A&F S10 has editors and such – it’s not as if Gischler could do anything he wanted regarding the comics. In addition, discussing hypotheticals is simply that.

                      I don't think it's fair to absolve Gischler of all blame for Faith's subpar storyline this season.
                      Not all, but the story is greatly hampered by post-BtVS 8.39.

                      And why are you blaming Joss Whedon for anything? Isn't he the ultimate arbiter of canon, isn't his word gospel? Isn't "because Joss Whedon said so" the ultimate smack-down to settle fan debates? Joss wants Angel alive for season 10, shouldn't that be good enough for you? Who is the better storyteller, Joss or you?
                      That’s silly.

                      That said, the power gap between Angel and Amy isn't as ridiculous as the power gap between Spike and Glory. For all of Amy's magic powers, she still has a normal human's strength, speed, durability and reaction time.
                      Given “Grave” (B 6.22), that’s not necessarily true. Amy’s ‘ice attack’ against Angel was silly. She could have easily decapitated Angel.

                      why do you keep calling him "Cursed Angel"?
                      To distinguish between pre-1898 C.E. Angel, Uncursed Angel, etc.


                      * Alcoholic has a precise definition. It’s genetic.


                      * If you consider Sam Finn boring, how is Angel not boring? I don’t consider Sam a “Mary Sue”, but what she is isn’t a world-ending danger.

                      Say what you will about Angel, but at least he's got more complexity than Sam Finn.
                      Well, Angel’s has how many episodes and comics versus Sam?


                      * http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...-after-BtVS-S8 That addresses your ending paragraphs. However, do you not acknowledge that Angel is less popular – certainly among the comic book readers – post-BtVS 8.39 than he’s been prior to his being revealed as Twilight?

                      Have you ever thought about writing to Scott Allie or Christos Gage and telling them that they are wrong about their own story?
                      That’s perhaps telling. It’s the Whedonverse, not the Allieverse and not the Gageverse.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        And most importantly of all, it's not the MikeBverse. Can I get an "AMEN!", everybody?

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