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Angel & Faith # 19 Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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  • Angel & Faith # 19 Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

    Leyki has posted her review of Angel & Faith # 19.It's spoiler heavy.

    http://leykimayri.wordpress.com/2013...uences-part-4/
    Last edited by BAF; 27-02-13, 03:30 AM.

  • #2
    You sure that's the right link? I'm just getting some movie site with an interview speculating on a possible Justice League movie.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
      You sure that's the right link? I'm just getting some movie site with an interview speculating on a possible Justice League movie.
      Eeep sorry about that.Corrected it.

      Comment


      • #4
        When is this issue released? I'll use spoiler-tags until I can read the issue for myself.
        Spoiler:
        The review sounds kind of disappointing. The Slayers and Alistair making their plan against Eyghon last issue then Spike showing up made it feel like it was building towards something big and epic. Seems kind of a let-down if Eyghon just shows up at the house out of nowhere. Also disappointed that Spike doesn't really seem to serve a purpose here. I would have thought that he'd be a total asset in taking down Eyghon. I always liked the mythology that Eyghon can't possess other demons and it seems pretty silly that this piece of mythology is being disregarded because "he's more powerful now". I hope we get some cool Alistair moments. I assume Giles corpse doesn't dissolve when Eyghon is killed. I do like it that it's Giles that kills Eyghon -although I know that won't stop some people from ignoring the story so that they can give Angel credit, then complain about it. I hope the continuity errors with Buffy and Dowling aren't as glaring as the review makes out. That kind of stuff should be easy to keep track of. Much as I hate resurrections, I am looking forward to hearing Giles speak again. If Angel is comatose, I do wonder what will stop Nadira from killing him.

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        • #5
          Given that review... This issue sounds exactly like what I had expected...


          Y'know, one day, someone should try to explain the blatant contradiction (but they never, ever will) of how there's an Angel and an Angelus (and a Liam too, I wonder...?) but there's only one Darla (human or vampire) and only Spike (albeit one who is written wildly differently by different people. But that's not mythology, that's just being sloppy.
          Spoiler:
          Sort of like their ever slipping timeline, the randomly possessed Twangel, and the way characters know things they were never told.


          And I see there's expanded use of super-pale pigment with...
          Spoiler:
          it now becoming an absolute that Angel was possessed during the mass murder of Nadira's squad.
          Last edited by shipperx; 27-02-13, 04:42 AM.
          Learning Experience: "...one of those things that says, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.”
          ~Douglas Adams

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
            When is this issue released? I'll use spoiler-tags until I can read the issue for myself.
            Spoiler:
            The review sounds kind of disappointing. The Slayers and Alistair making their plan against Eyghon last issue then Spike showing up made it feel like it was building towards something big and epic. Seems kind of a let-down if Eyghon just shows up at the house out of nowhere. Also disappointed that Spike doesn't really seem to serve a purpose here. I would have thought that he'd be a total asset in taking down Eyghon. I always liked the mythology that Eyghon can't possess other demons and it seems pretty silly that this piece of mythology is being disregarded because "he's more powerful now". I hope we get some cool Alistair moments. I assume Giles corpse doesn't dissolve when Eyghon is killed. I do like it that it's Giles that kills Eyghon -although I know that won't stop some people from ignoring the story so that they can give Angel credit, then complain about it. I hope the continuity errors with Buffy and Dowling aren't as glaring as the review makes out. That kind of stuff should be easy to keep track of. Much as I hate resurrections, I am looking forward to hearing Giles speak again. If Angel is comatose, I do wonder what will stop Nadira from killing him.
            It is released digitally at 3am eastern.So in a few hours

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BAF
              It is released digitally at 3am eastern.So in a few hours
              That feeling when I know I'll be at work while the rest of you are reading the comic.

              That feeling when I'm wondering about soul-Giles and keep looking at the clock waiting for my shift to finish. You have no idea how excited I am to see soul-Giles.

              That feeling when I finish work and instead of going to the gym, I go home to download the comic from Dark Horse, promise myself that I will go to the gym after, but never do because now I'm comfortable and at home.

              That feeling when this issue turns out to be the very mediocre end to a very promising arc.

              That feeling when I get told that I'm not the arbiter of canon... and I know deep in my heart that I never will be.

              That feeling when this thread turns into a TOYL thread and fifteen pages of Future-Dark-Willow.

              Feels bad, man.

              Originally posted by shipperx
              Y'know, one day, someone should try to explain the blatant contradiction (but they never, ever will) of how there's an Angel and an Angelus (and a Liam too, I wonder...?) but there's only one Darla (human or vampire) and only Spike (albeit one who is written wildly differently by different people. But that's not mythology, that's just being sloppy.
              My guess is (until I read the actual issue of course), the whole thing about Angel and Angelus being two different people is either a character in the story not understanding what they are talking about, or Leyki the reviewer possibly getting a detail wrong or choosing to interpret it a certain way. Because honestly, I doubt the writers will confirm it in concrete that Angel and Angelus are seperate people. Because that's just silly. I've never had a problem with the whole soul/no-soul thing. Whether or not you consider a vampire the same person that they were in life is a semantic game really, and one I've never been interested in discussing because really, what makes a person? Is it our memories, our soul, our personality, our genetics? All of these things are subject to change in the Buffyverse, so really, what is the defining thing that makes someone themselves? It's a matter of semantics, really.

              Angelus is Liam turned into a vampire. Angel is Liam/Angelus as a vampire with his soul restored. Spike is exactly the same, only he doesn't change his name as frequently. There is no difference in the mythology and I've never had trouble with it. Angel and Angelus being treated as separate people was silly in AtS season 4 but even then I didn't really have trouble with the mythology because while the characters talking about Angelus as a separate guy was silly, there really was nothing in the mythology that explicitly debunked what was previously established. I hope the same is true for this issue of A&F.

              That said, the soul and the demon are certainly two different metaphysical "objects" and Angel and Spike have both inside them. I have no trouble with the idea that a third "object" (Giles's soul) in there could cause problems.

              I still think it's stupid that Eyghon can possess Spike. What was awesome about Willow and Angel's plan in In the Dark was that the demon inside Angel would make Angel's dead body uninhabitable for Eyghon. It was an awesome and creative way of defeating Eyghon and I think it's stupid that has been thrown out the window because "Eyghon is more powerful now so he can possess vampires". I really, really hate Power Creep in comics, perhaps even more-so than resurrections. Rules need to be laid down for what characters can and can't do and these rules should be adhered to. Again, Joss should never again complain about a vampire using sunscreen.

              it now becoming an absolute that Angel was possessed during the mass murder of Nadira's squad.
              When was that ever in question? We found out in issue #1 that Angel didn't remember Nadira's squad because he was in deep possession when it happened. That doesn't mean that Angel can't be blamed because he's the one who signed on with Twilight: even if he wasn't lucid for some periods, he's still accountable. He's also accountable for hiring the known psychopaths Nash and Pearl. He knew that they would likely be doing evil stuff even when he was lucid and yet he still chose to work with them. Just because he was asleep at the wheel when Nash and Pearl killed Nadira's squad, that doesn't mean that he can't still be held accountable for stuff that was very clearly his fault. I still fail to see where the "whitewashing" is here.

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              • #8
                Angel didn't remember Nadira's squad murder because it wasn't unique. He didn't know whether or not he was possessed that time because he couldn't identify the incident. Now it's certain.

                Oh yeah he was specifically possessed that time... and every other identifiable incident. He's not guilty of anything specific just something ambiguously bad that took place sometime. Maybe. But they'll never give rhyme or reason or a way to know. It's just possession during anything that Twangel did that anyone might be capable of identifying or mentioning... which is terribly convenient for retroactive de-colorizing, is it not?
                Last edited by shipperx; 27-02-13, 05:39 AM.
                Learning Experience: "...one of those things that says, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.”
                ~Douglas Adams

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                • #9
                  Guess it's Gage' take on Dumb&Dumber as TGIQ is one of his favorites episodes, only this time is Dumb!Spike and Saint!Angel.
                  "Gunn dies, Illyria Survives, Spike shanshus, Angel looses an arm and Xander looses an arm too, which is odd because he wasn't even there."
                  Joss Whedon at the High Stakes convention - 2004

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shipperx View Post
                    Angel didn't remember Nadira's squad murder because it wasn't unique. He didn't know whether or not he was possessed that time because he couldn't identify the incident. Now it's certain.
                    I've got the issue in front of me. Angel's words: "I don't remember the incident that your friend mentioned. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. There were times, especially toward the end, when I was more under Twilight's influence than others." Faith then compares the situation to when Angel killed Giles, an incident where we know that Angel was possessed. I always took this to mean that Angel was possessed at certain times, much like Spike was in season 7 when the First was triggering him. Most of the time Spike could act of his own accord but every now and then he'd wake up in a strange place because the First had been driving around in his body. I imagine that the same was true of Angel sometimes with Twilight. Most of the time Angel was doing his Twilight stuff of his own accord, but on occasion the Big Cat would get bored and want to take Angel's body for a spin.

                    Also in issue #1 Angel mentions that he used Nash and Pearl to attack rival demons and tried to steer them away from human targets. He does mention that he's not surprised that they "went off the reservation", but prior to Faith telling him Nadira's story -Angel had clearly not heard of Nash and Pearl attacking Slayers. Because their job was to attack rival demons -if they attacked humans, that would be "off the reservation" and out of the ordinary for them. Earlier in the issue, we saw Twilight floating ominously in the sky while they butchered the Slayers. Angel specificity mentions that killing humans were not Nash and Pearl's job, therefore he should remember them killing Nadira's squad because that kind of operation should be out of the ordinary for them.

                    The fact that it was Nash and Pearl killing humans instead of demons, it wasn't their usual job, Angel saw it and doesn't remember it, and he mentions bouts of possession... to me that indicated from issue #1 that Angel was possessed in that specific incident. This is not new information. You say "now it's certain" as though it was previously ambiguous and maybe Angel just forgot...

                    And y'know what? Who cares that he was possessed in this once incident? Does that really lower Angel's culpability or whitewash him? No, it does not. Not any more than me falling into a drunken stupor behind the wheel and therefore unconscious when I drive through a kindergarten. Angel put himself in that position, it's established in issue #1 that he knew what kind of people Nash and Pearl were, and while he was unaware that they killed the Slayers, he couldn't pretend to be surprised when he heard about it. He knew that Nash and Pearl acting up was a very real risk and yet he still chose to hire them.

                    There was a panel where Angel also speaks about how he should have asked more questions or turned away from Twilight when he was in his right mind, yet he chose not to. I'm guessing that panel or that dialogue must have been missing from your issue of the comic? If so, that's unfortunate that you would miss out a chunk of the story like that, but you should still hang onto the issue because sometimes misprints can be worth something later down the line...

                    Oh yeah he was specifically possessed that time... and every other identifiable incident. He's not guilty of anything specific just something ambiguously bad that took place sometime. Maybe. But they'll never give rhyme or reason or a way to know. It's just possession during anything that Twangel did that anyone might be capable of identifying or mentioning... which is terribly convenient for retroactive de-colorizing, is it not?
                    Well, that's a complete and utter lie. I could make a whole list of incidents of Angel's crimes that he was aware of while committing and should still be held culpable for. I can think of two, count 'em, two instances where he was clearly possessed, and I could think of a dozen other crimes off the top of my head where he was in his right mind. I could list them, but really, why would I bother? You'd just ignore and continue to post the same complaints Every Single Month. I've said it before, the story is far from perfect and while I am ultimately enjoying the book, there are plenty of flaws and things that in the story that should have been improved upon. Why not critique the actual flaws of the book?

                    Originally posted by ubisoft
                    Guess it's Gage' take on Dumb&Dumber as TGIQ is one of his favorites episodes, only this time is Dumb!Spike and Saint!Angel.
                    Can we at least wait until the issue is released before the thread is bombarded by the usual sarcastic one-liner complaints?

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                    • #11
                      A few scattershot observations, which I'm not spoiler tagging. This is a full spoilers thread.

                      Firstly, I can't believe that Nadira is willing to give Angel a second chance but not Faith. What the hell...?

                      Mind you, I'm now pretty certain Nadira's toast before the end of the series. A shame. She's my favourite character.

                      Spike has a few good lines (two of them very funny indeed), but otherwise his role in this issue seems to be 'class clown.' He seems to have no opinion on anything, certainly not on the merits or otherwise of resurrecting Giles (and how he knew that's what Angel was up to isn't explained of course). Also, where does Angel get off coming over all moral superior? After season 8, that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. But then, as Shipperx has stated several times, Spike was never going to be allowed to upstage Angel in his own book. If anyone does that, Giles does. Fair enough. It is, as mentioned, Angel's book, but yet more evidence that DH really don't know what to do with Spike. They took him out of Buffy's book because they didn't want him standing around doing nothing, yet that's all he does here, and worst of all, it was all he really did in his own book.

                      The so-called 'romantic chemistry' Gage talked about between Spike and Faith is nowhere in evidence. Going by this issue, all Faith feels for Spike is contempt. And not in the quippy Tracy/Hepburn way.

                      The shouting match between Spike and Angel over Buffy is weird. Spike didn't leave San Francisco because of Buffy/Dowling. When he left there was no Buffy/Dowliing. Yet that's what this conversation seems to imply. It's bad enough surely that they're retconning their story from season 8, now they're retconning season 9 while it's still happening.

                      Either that, or Gage hasn't read Buffy nos 7-10, for which I wouldn't blame him.

                      The Spangel shout out is quite amusing.

                      Couldn't they spare Ethan a single panel to show he's dead again? I was so looking forward to the return of that character. What a waste.
                      Last edited by Morphia; 27-02-13, 08:19 AM.

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                      • #12
                        When did Gage mention chemistry?

                        Somehow what bothers me most is Allie calling Spike and Faith the best bad guy and bad girl in the 'verse. Not that I think Allie sees them as villains or anything. More that it seems like their pasts are never to be forgotten, and is somehow defining. While Angel can kill as many as he likes without losing the basic position of being the hero.

                        And on my first read at least Leyki is right about Angelus being a whole other person....
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Maggie View Post
                          When did Gage mention chemistry?
                          It was in a recent interview he did with CBR. He said Spike and Faith had 'romantic chemistry.' I can't say I've seen anything 'romantic' about any of their interaction so far, whether in the show or the comic. Unless Gage thinks that if a woman and a man just speak to each other that's romantic.

                          Originally posted by maggie
                          Somehow what bothers me most is Allie calling Spike and Faith the best bad guy and bad girl in the 'verse. Not that I think Allie sees them as villains or anything. More that it seems like their pasts are never to be forgotten, and is somehow defining. While Angel can kill as many as he likes without losing the basic position of being the hero.
                          But that wasn't him. It was Twilight.

                          I've not seen that quote of Allie's but it doesn't surprise me. It's the facile read of both Spike's and Faith's characters. And also emphasises why IMO they wouldn't make a good romantic pairing. They'd bring out the worst in each other.

                          Originally posted by maggie
                          And on my first read at least Leyki is right about Angelus being a whole other person....
                          Yeah, I've just read Leyki's review (wasn't going to until I'd read the issue for myself) and I have to agree with her. That seems to be what they're saying here. If it helps, Eyghon distinguishes between Spike and his demon when he takes Spike over, so the same applies to him.

                          As I said, Spike has some funny lines, but otherwise, well.... . I had issues with Lynch's Spike too, but he was way more likeable.
                          Last edited by Morphia; 27-02-13, 09:31 AM.

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                          • #14
                            It was odd that Spike talked about Buffy getting chummy with a cop and not wanting to stick around because that just wasn't what was happening when he left, in fact he was the one spending the time liaising with Dowling. I just assume that they are linking in with what is really happening and just that we are supposed to accept that Spike was speculating/saying something to avoid getting into what was really happening because he doesn't want to discuss it with Angel.

                            I disliked the fact that Angel brought up Buffy to try and mock Spike. I know they have their competitive issues but considering everything that went off in S8 I don't think Angel would just bring her up like that to taunt Spike with what Angel sees as a predictable brush off, I just don't think he would feel that comfortable bringing up Buffy when the obvious retort happened. But then I thought the 'when can you get a word in' comment about Buffy to Willow was off as well, so perhaps it is just me and Angel is far more comfortable about what happened with Buffy than I think he would be.

                            Spike wasn't really relevant this issue, he was just there. The sexual side was a repetitive gag all the way through the issue to the clichéd extent of a kick to the balls then waking up on top of Faith. It was pretty painful really, practically a comedy sexbot role and totally in keeping with the reference to him having slept around earlier in the season. He has basically entered as the slightly dim/sarcastic/randy teenager or some such. I suppose it is setting up in some way whatever tomfoolery is coming next issue. But there wasn't any 'tension' built between anyone so I would put bets more at comedy or spell induced behaviour. It is a one-shot so they can pretty much do whatever they please. So, whatever, we'll find out next month.

                            I did only read it over quickly but I can't see why the way Angel avoided possession really worked personally. I also thought it was off of Nadira to be so definitely writing off Faith. I assume we are just supposed to feel that she is so personally hurt that she is overreacting to it. I thought it was a little lacklustre an arc personally, the best thing in this issue were the preview pages with Giles and his Gran imo.

                            I'm struggling to summon up much interest/enthusiasm I'm afraid.

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                            • #15
                              Triangle blather was a waste of panel space, frankly. It takes over every thread always, so really, what's the point in having characters rehash audience arguments?

                              My only objection to their obligatory verbal sparring is that Angel (and necessarily Gage and by implication Joss) felt it appropriate to still try to "one-up" Spike as though there is still any valid argument whatsoever about which of them is the more corrupt/corruptible and has the most questionable motives. Angel. Was. Twilight.

                              Spike acting petrified of Angelus was weak tea, but otherwise, I think fears that he was somehow going to come off as Angel's organ-grinder monkey were misplaced. I think his stature and use in the story matched what it was in Season 5, and instead of being sent to rescue the baby, he was assigned the kill shot on Eyghon. I think whatever that was all supposed to be with Faith came off less as a callback to Season 7 and more as just inexplicably awkward. Despite Gage's best intentions, I'm glad the characters turned out to have absolutely no chemistry in print whatsoever, though, since again, my mission statement is for Faith to stay unique from Buffy by never sleeping with either of these guys. If next issue is supposed to be some sort of romance tease, it'll just be painfully awkward. Not to mention cloying -- didn't we just do this with Spike for five issues?

                              Which, hey, I actually liked the "works in theory" twist of Eyghon being able to possess them after all, as though the problem he had with Angel back in "The Dark Age" was just an issue of interdimensional packet loss.

                              I would rather Nadira still wanted to kill Angel but spared him because she forgives Faith.

                              Y'know, for an issue that had all the moving parts working and resolved several plot points and was basically a major turning point episode, I found the whole thing oddly unfulfilling. Also not all that enthusiastic about it being "Spike and Faith" next issue, not because I don't buy the plot justification -- ish -- it's because it really is that transparent that the current plan is to treat Spike like he is Cowbell and to add more to everything. Comic continuations got a fever... and the only prescription... is more Spike.
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