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Angel & Faith #16 Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

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  • Angel & Faith #16 Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

    So, has anyone read it yet?
    I disagree with Kimberly that it was boring, it wasn't. But I'll agree that the twist in the final page was great.
    There is also a flashback with Faith and Giles talking.
    The panel where Faith and Angel open Giles's coffin and find it empty is terrific, Rebecca nails it, if only her Angel looked a little bit better than that.

    Great issue.

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  • #2
    It'll be a while before I get to read this. What do Faith and Giles talk about? I got the feeling that Giles may have expressed his opinions about resurrections, or am I way off the mark?
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    • #3
      Way off the mark
      He tells Faith that while she always keeps her distances from people, once she lets someone get closer to her, she gets so attached to that person that she puts that person's needs on top of hers. He also tells her that although we want to help everyone, there are people who can't be helped unfortunately. There are, and will be, slayers, so damaged, beyond help, that will only drag you into their pain if you insist on helping them. So basically he's telling her to watch her @ss first of all.
      Last edited by zianna; 28-11-12, 10:19 AM.

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      • #4
        Thanks! Ok, so I was way off but this actually better...

        So basically, Faith is putting Angel's needs before her own, Angel is dragging her down with his own crap, and he may be beyond help. Pretty accurate assessment of the Angel/Faith relationship at this point! She continues to go along with this narcissistic quest to resurrect Giles despite having serious reservations about it, her relationship with Angel is jeopardising her standing with her fellow Slayers, and whenever she tries to criticise him he shuts her out. The relationship between Angel and Faith has been by far the best thing about this book and I don’t think we necessarily needed it spelt out to us how unhealthy their relationship is – but it’s nice to see it anyway.

        Of course, this could easily apply to Faith's relationship with Nadira as well but it's all just a mirror of the Angel/Faith dynamic. Nice. And in a way, I think it's pretty much what Buffy was concerned about back in #40 ("Faith, are you sure you can handle...") and how tending to Angel could be too much for Faith. It's a legitimate concern and I do think trying to look after Angel has ultimately had far more negative consequences for Faith than positive. I still think we're heading for a big Angel VS Faith showdown if, presumably, she finally does put herself first and tries to stop his plan.

        Assuming this flashback was meant to be a commentary on the Angel/Faith dynamic, which I think is pretty obvious it is, it's just further reassurance to me that Gage is purposely writing Angel to be flawed and repeating the same mistakes (as Allie has confirmed in multiple Q/As) and that they're not just oblivious to how they're portraying him. The question is -- is Angel so damaged, so beyond help, that he'll only drag Faith down with him? It’s pretty damning. As an Angel fan I certainly hope that's not the case but it's a perfectly fair question given his behaviour of late.

        I was pretty disappointed when I heard that Faith was digging up Giles by Angel's side. I hoped she'd finally stand up to him before she allowed it to get that far. But Giles’s insight into her was pretty spot on seeing as how she was practically begging Angel to tell her that what Nadira had said was all a mistake back in #1. I sympathise greatly with why she’s so attached to Angel and I feel for her that when she does find a connection with someone she latches on so tightly, but I don’t think she’s above criticism either. Angel’s plan reflects very badly on him but ultimately Faith would be equally as responsible for whatever happens to Giles if she stands by and lets it happen.
        Last edited by vampmogs; 28-11-12, 11:06 AM.
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        • #5
          This was my favourite issue of this book so far. I feel hopeful for Angel again at last.

          I think the scene with Nadira really hit home to him how much his actions have hurt the one person who has stood by him no matter what. Very powerful scene, the final one with him and Faith. The fact there were so few words made it more powerful.

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          • #6
            I won't be able to get my copy until tomorrow unfortuantly but I'm greatly looking forward to the issue.

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            • #7
              Absolutely the best. I don't want to spoil it, but the last page... fantastic.

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              • #8
                I am very grateful that Nadira was allowed to have hand throughout that entire conversation, that any attempt to "you see timmy" her by Angel just fell apart instantly. Glad that Faith looked genuinely wounded by Nadira basically shaking the dust off her boots. Even loved the abstract point that Nadira's Slayer friend was no more or less worthy to be resurrected than Giles, because it did make (by implication) the point that this is all ultimately about making Angel feel better.

                It was a disappointment that Faith has clearly decided to go all in here -- I can't accept that she actually has some "this has gone far enough" line she won't cross that doesn't include actually digging him up.

                I don't find the last page all that great, because, well, it's too easy to assume it isn't him. It does, I'll admit, have a "Death and Return of Superman" vibe (we'll now need a cyborg Giles, a young Giles, and a black Giles with a metal suit to make him like the real Giles to show up, all claiming to be Giles), it's done in just enough of a way to make you think it might be legit. Actually, honestly? It is done in a way that is very reminiscent of the Gospel

                Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”

                So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.
                John 20:1-10

                I doubt it's intentional, but it definitely reminds me of that.

                I did find it very fascinating the way the issue deals with the notion of death and dying, about how the afterlife fits into this whole "Seed" thing (which, btw, still don't like everybody talking about the Seed like it's the World Trade Center -- a famous and readily identifiable thing people just know about. It would feel more realistic to me if most people just didn't know why the world had changed, at least the specifics), like saying it's not magic. Granted, this is just Angel talking, so it's not necessarily Voice of Author exposition, but it will add fodder to every spiritual discussion about the Buffyverse ever had.

                Overall, this was possibly the strongest issue of the series so far.
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                • #9
                  Fantastic issue. Everything top notch. My favorite part was the flashback to Faith and Giles, a relationship we didn't get to see enough of in Season 8.

                  After so many disappointments in the two main titles, its great to finally get an issue this powerful and well done.
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                  • #10
                    Best issue in either title since 9.05 of "Buffy", I'd say, and not even really competitive.

                    I did find one serious logic gap, though -- or at least something that will need to be addressed. If Nadira knows who Giles is (and how dare they go with "she doesn't know him as anything other than a picture of a kid on a wall" when she seems to have read "Last Gleaming" in TPB), shouldn't she be like "aroo?" at who the expert she's gone to apparently is? That is the only part I'm kinda having trouble with -- she's not only talking to him, but being snarky and demanding. It just... I feel like she should Rupert Giles, adult, when she sees him, when she was clearly in Buffy's organization, clearly knew about Angel's plan to resurrect him, etc. It was literally the only thing that pulled me out of the story a bit.
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                    • #11
                      Wow. Amazing issue. I agree with everyone else in that it's the best we've read in a long time.

                      In a way, this even frames the ridiculousness of the Quor'toth arc as how far afield Angel's mission has led Faith. Which doesn't excuse the poor plot and characterization for Willow in that arc, but it frames it in an interesting way for the series run as a whole. Angel's obsession took them to Wonderland, essentially, long before Willow's Wonderland adventure title even started.

                      Anyways, this issue was firing on all cylinders. And perhaps most notably, it pushed Angel to the background and focused on Faith, exploring her connection to Giles, her connection to Nadira and the Slayers, and how her loyalty to Angel is extreme in a dangerous way.

                      The flashback worked amazingly well, simple but incredibly effective, in how it showed Faith and Giles, another man who had her extreme loyalty. Only with Giles, he was actually looking out for her and helping her with her mission to help the Slayers. Giles jumped on her train in order to help her stay the line, rather than her jumping on Angel's runaway crazy train and desperately trying to keep him from driving them off a cliff.

                      Giles helped Faith build a connection to the Slayers, Angel's driven the Slayers from Faith. And I like the point being driven home how what Angel's doing shows no respect for the families left behind, the families of the departed. Angel's driven by his needs now, his guilt, his narcissism -- the same guilt and narcissism that keeps him from slaying Drusilla.

                      Sidebar: King, I assume Nadira's heard of Giles by name, but she's never seen him in person. Not every single Slayer met him, and the way she talked about him suggested she'd only heard of him when she called him "the watcher" who'd lived in the house. The twist on the final page didn't throw me because Nadira's talking about Giles didn't suggest a personal connection.
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                      • #12
                        They should make a Nadira mini series. A main character criticized for letting a villain go? That's music to my ears, even if it can be argued that Angel didn't exactly let Drusilla go. In the past he has had plenty of opportunities to stake her and didn't, so about time somebody called him on that.

                        I am not sure what to think of the big twist but for all its flaws "Angel and Faith" at least feels like a story with real conflict, progression and characters, not a series of random twists and one-dimensional caricatures that Buffy S9 has turned into.

                        I wonder if Angel told Faith about his meeting with Whistler.

                        I loved that the dead Slayer was described as the best because she was really kind and was taking care of fellow Slayer not because she was the best fighter. Take that, S7!
                        Last edited by Jack Shaftoe; 28-11-12, 09:07 PM.
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                        • #13
                          That was...okay. It wasn't brilliant or anything. Of course, 'okay' is pretty much the best these comics can aspire to.

                          So using a few spells make you eligible to be resurrected, but being a freaking Slayer with magically enhanced strength, magic healing powers and magic visions doesn't? Yeah, that makes sense...

                          Was the flashback with Giles supposed to foreshadow Nadira as being someone who's too damaged to help? If so, I will cut a bitch.

                          Nadira's smackdown of Angel was the best part, but if she doesn't try to stake him at some point, I will be severely disappointed.

                          I love the panel where Faith is trying to explain the Twangel saga to Nadira and then just gives up halfway through. Maybe the writers came up with that scene by visiting some message boards where season 8 was discussed.


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                          • #14
                            Another great issue! I *was* spoiled and wish that I hadn't been.

                            I am trying to remember the exact reasons given that it was not possible to bring Fred back on ATS, since I think that will be more important than anything that happened on BTVS and all I can come up with is something about her soul being destroyed. Considering that Giles soul hasn't been destroyed, it's not that far of a leap for me that Angel will find a way to restore him, if that's needed. I am secretly kinda hoping it IS needed as this character has the ability to impact all the other characters (that I care about) in a BIG way.

                            This is going to be good and is making me reconsider all the different ways a game changing moment could develop for the end.

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                            • #15
                              The real and important reason for Fred, and for Giles, and for Tara, has never had anything to do with blah blah magic-sounding bullshit, but it's had to do with narrative integrity -- if things that happen in your story don't have consequences that are real and permanent, than your story is increasingly hollow and superfluous. High on that list? Characters dying.

                              I am, for the reason of preferring a sophisticated and mature story where the things that happen matter because they last, don't want Giles resurrected. But, if this isn't (as it seems most likely) some Ethan and/or Eyghon trick, and it's actually Giles, I'd at least take some satisfaction that he wasn't back because of Angel. Honestly, if they were going to cop out on Giles being dead, than make it so Angel killed a Warren-bot of Giles or a "Life Serial"-esque slime golem of Giles.
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