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Angel & Faith #16 Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Local Maximum View Post
    Partially agree. I think the reason I'm sympathetic to Nadira is that there's frankly no reason Nadira *should* believe Angel at this juncture -- I mean, Angel was telling the truth, but he could just as well be lying to cover his butt and keep on his current course.
    Completely agree. As I said, I get why she's so enraged at him and I don't blame her at all. But it does also mean there's absolutely nothing Angel can do to possibly appease her. Which, hey, that's his fault but as justified as Nadira's hatred may be it doesn’t mean that she was asking Angel to do something that (I think) he genuinely believes is impossible.

    More to the point, Angel never considered resurrecting anybody besides Giles; certainly their current resurrecting plans couldn't be modified to bring the slayer back instead, but if resurrecting is such a great idea, why focus 100% on Giles and not one of the thousands of Wiccans or even witchy slayers who might be brought back? You mention that you agree with Nadira there, but I just want to emphasize why I think those criticisms are very close to each other.
    True. However, this is where Nadira is far more alike Angel than she'd probably be willing to admit. Because Giles is "just some old bloke" to her and she certainly wasn't knocking down doors to resurrect him. Marianne is her friend so of course it matters more to her that she is resurrected just like Angel has personal reasons for wanting Giles back. And if Marianne is as saintly and good as Nadira says would she really be ok with Nadira busting down Twilight's door for help? Or going to some sketchy house where she obviously considers the people untrustworthy (as she threatens them) and bad news? There's some pretty strong Angel/Nadira parallels going on throughout this issue. They're both motivated by selfishness when it comes to the resurrections, they're both willing to compromise their morals to make it happen, it's arguable that they're both going against the wishes of the person they're so desperate to bring back, and of course what Giles said to Faith equally applies to her relationship with Nadira as it does with Angel.

    I'm always going to be sympathetic to Nadira. She's the way she is because of Angel and she has every reason to hate him. But I do think Nadira was demanding the impossible (expecting Angel to be able to bring back Marianne with the same methods he intended to bring back Giles) and that there's literally nothing Angel could say or do that wouldn't just make her more enraged. And as much as I think Angel deserves her animosity and as angry I am at Angel's resurrection plans – I don’t get any joy out of seeing someone bashed (in this case literally) for things that aren’t their fault. In other words; it’s really complicated.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 01-12-12, 05:17 AM.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
      And if Marianne is as saintly and good as Nadira says would she really be ok with Nadira busting down Twilight's door for help? Or going to some sketchy house where she obviously considers the people untrustworthy (as she threatens them) and bad news?
      It's very possible that Marianne would be okay with swallowing those indignities because the only alternative is that she stays dead. And if Marianne is as special and saintly and good as Nadira says, I'd think that Marianne would want to do whatever she can to live so she can keep helping others and interacting with those who she loves.

      Generally, people who I perceive as good and wonderful and valuable to society in my daily life, give off vibes that they value their own lives. They go vacations and take time-off from their non-profits and projects but they're eager to get back to it and take it personally when things fall through the cracks because they weren't there to take care of it.

      If Marianne is as good as Nadira says, I'm sure that Marianne left Nadira with the impression that there's nothing Marianne would hate more than being dead, unable to help with all of Marianne's projects and people who need her help left twisting in the wind. In fact based on Nadira's comments, I have every confidence that Nadira and the other slayers REALLY think they're acting in Marianne's interest and according to Marianne's desires.

      I even sympathize with Angel's plans to resurrect Giles because I actually think that Angel really thinks that Giles would want to be resurrected. Willow is at great fault for not sharing Giles's angrily stated opinions on resurrections with Angel. I don't regard Angel's plans to resurrect Giles with the same sympathy that I regard Nadira resurrecting Marianne, the Scoobies resurrecting Buffy, Dawn resurrecting Joyce because Angel isn't resurrecting Giles out of love for Giles so much as a desire for Angel to wipe that part of his conscience clean. However even though I believe that Angel is primarily resurrecting Giles for the sake of Angel's own conscience, I do firmly believe that Angel really honestly believes that he's doing what Giles would want.
      Last edited by Dipstick; 01-12-12, 06:53 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Local Maximum View Post
        Yeah, I mean, the question of how Giles' soul got ENTIRELY put into pieces of magic but everyone who has done less magic than Giles passed on kind of confuses me. Are we to assume that Tara's soul is lying in a bunch of floating (but decaying) roses, that Jenny's soul is floating around the internet somewhere like Moloch, preventing traffic signal mishaps from the beyond? I mean, considering that one of the small but of order of magnitude ten items Angel collected contained "one day of Giles' life," (in issue 1) so I feel like Angel would need around 25,000 more nipple piercings to make up a full Giles.
        I honestly haven't been paying close enough attention to A&F's story to recall, but didn't Angel say that he needed one more piece of Giles soul and then they were ready in "Family Reunion"? Has the text explicitly said that the entirety of Giles' soul is now caught in magical objects? I'm asking because maybe someone remembers the specifics of that context better than I do, which would relate to my theory here.

        What if the plan isn't to collect all the pieces of Giles soul in objects, but to collect enough pieces of Giles' soul caught in magical objects as a means of calling back Giles soul from the great beyond?

        Think about it like Xander back in "The Replacement". There's a natural, inherent magic to being. Giles soul, in its natural state, should be whole.

        If Angel collects enough remnants of Giles soul, maybe he can create enough force to draw back Giles' soul which has passed on to wherever souls go in the afterlife.

        It's like a cheat for a resurrection spell. The low-tech version of opening a portal the way Willow has to cheat to get to Quor'toth by tearing it open by using Connor's connection to Quor'toth.

        Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
        Willow is at great fault for not sharing Giles's angrily stated opinions on resurrections with Angel.
        Yet another amazing opportunity which "Family Reunion" failed to capitalize on. As fans, I know we're more attuned to these moments, noticing the callbacks. I wonder if Gage thought of it, since he seems to have a fairly good grasp on worldbuilding mechanics. I'm remembering how Joss used to comment upon rewatching episodes of the show -- that obsessiveness that I think he shares with fans. I guess I'm leaning towards the assumption that Gage didn't rewatch some of BtVS Season 6 before writing Willow, simply because his Willow fell flat for me.


        Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
        However even though I believe that Angel is primarily resurrecting Giles for the sake of Angel's own conscience, I do firmly believe that Angel really honestly believes that he's doing what Giles would want.
        This is the conundrum for me. Because is Angel basing this on the assumption that everyone wants to live, to be resurrected? I'm not sure I see any specific Giles-reasoning that Angel is using. And because it lacks the specific in terms of Giles, whereas Angel's personal reasons are very clear, and Angel also lacks the more general application of his reasoning that everyone wants to live -- if everyone does, then why is he only helping bring back Giles and not dead witches (as Local-Max pointed out).

        Basically, Angel may honestly believe this is what Giles wants, but that only really tells me that Angel doesn't know what Giles wants, that Angel doesn't know Giles. Thus, it's still All About Angel since this is about Angel's idea of Giles, not about Giles himself.
        Last edited by Emmie; 01-12-12, 07:45 PM.
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        • #34
          Originally posted by Emmie View Post
          Yet another amazing opportunity which "Family Reunion" failed to capitalize on. As fans, I know we're more attuned to these moments, noticing the callbacks. I wonder if Gage thought of it, since he seems to have a fairly good grasp on worldbuilding mechanics. I'm remembering how Joss used to comment upon rewatching episodes of the show -- that obsessiveness that I think he shares with fans. I guess I'm leaning towards the assumption that Gage didn't rewatch some of BtVS Season 6 before writing Willow, simply because his Willow fell flat for me.
          I'm inclined to agree that Gage just didn't think of Flooded. However if I really wanted to ascribe dastardly motives to Willow, I would argue that she kept Giles's rant in Flooded to herself because it could end Angel's plan to resurrect Giles and thus, remove all of the value of Willow's main payment for being taken to Quor-Toth.

          This is the conundrum for me. Because is Angel basing this on the assumption that everyone wants to live, to be resurrected? I'm not sure I see any specific Giles-reasoning that Angel is using. And because it lacks the specific in terms of Giles, whereas Angel's personal reasons are very clear, and Angel also lacks the more general application of his reasoning that everyone wants to live -- if everyone does, then why is he only helping bring back Giles and not dead witches (as Local-Max pointed out).

          Basically, Angel may honestly believe this is what Giles wants, but that only really tells me that Angel doesn't know what Giles wants, that Angel doesn't know Giles. Thus, it's still All About Angel since this is about Angel's idea of Giles, not about Giles himself.
          I really agree with you. I do feel that Angel honestly believes that this is what Giles's wants- but it's only because Angel is applying the general pro-life human meme to Giles rather than through personally knowing Giles. By Forever, Dawn saw her mother afraid of her cancer and dying, going through brain-surgery to stay alive. Willow lived through years of Buffy bemoaning how her destiny would cut her life short and would deprive her of having a family or the promise of getting a job to make Career Day seem worthwhile and being incredibly hurt through Cordelia's "This conversation is reserved for those of us who have a future" snark. None of that specificity exists for Angel re: Giles.

          However to throw Angel a bone, it's not like Angel is pushing the resurrection even though he knows that Giles wouldn't want it or even has reason to suspect that Giles wouldn't want it. And the belief that most people want to live is pretty universal.

          Also, Angel's cause is "helped" by the fact that Faith is participating in the resurrection. Giles did Watcher Faith in Giles's last year and Giles left Faith all of his possessions. It does really help Angel feel like he's doing the right thing when Giles's heiress supports his cause.

          ETA: This is another reason why Giles's decision to leave everything to Faith seems so dumb and cruel. Being named the heiress to substantial property confers a lot of importance and decisions to the heiress about how the deceased would like their affairs handled. In our real life, it doesn't mean resurrection per se, but it means a lot of other important stuff. Faith was in no way ready, prepared or worthy to be the one to handle Giles's estate from control of Giles's body, to deciding the occupants' of Giles's house to being a good steward of Giles's magical possessions. Buffy would have been a much better steward and much more in-tune to what Giles would have wanted to do with his stuff.
          Last edited by Dipstick; 01-12-12, 08:41 PM.

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          • #35
            What I want to know is, once all the pieces of Giles's soul are collected, what will happen to Angel's evil nipple?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Morphia View Post
              What I want to know is, once all the pieces of Giles's soul are collected, what will happen to Angel's evil nipple?
              It gives birth to Giles, presumably. The Buffy reference to Alien now makes so much sense!
              Last edited by Emmie; 01-12-12, 11:31 PM.
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              • #37
                Dipstick, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of Marianne suffering any "indignity." If she's as concerned for the well-being of the Slayers as she's meant to be then I don't take it as a given that she'd be ok with them risking themselves just to bring her back. There's a very good possibility that someone like Marianne would rather remain dead then see her loved ones place themselves in harm’s way or compromising themselves by making shady deals.

                We're supposed to have zombie Slayers in this arc, yeah? Not a stretch that it'll probably have something to do with whatever bargain Nadira strikes with "Giles" or as some horrible consequence for trying to bring Marianne back. A person who prioritizes the well-being of others before themselves wouldn't condone risking an entire squad of Slayers just to save their (already dead) arse. In my eyes that would go against everything Marianne would want.

                I have no idea if Marianne agrees with resurrection or not. We've seen plenty of perfectly good people (Buffy, Giles, Tara) who do not so I don't think it's a given either way. We don't know anywhere near enough about her to even hazard a guess so that's really not what I was focusing on.

                We'll have to wait and see just what Nadira is willing to do to bring Marianne back. So far it doesn't look good but I hope she has her limits.
                Last edited by vampmogs; 02-12-12, 04:56 AM.
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                  Dipstick, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of Marianne suffering any "indignity." If she's as concerned for the well-being of the Slayers as she's meant to be then I don't take it as a given that she'd be ok with them risking themselves just to bring her back. There's a very good possibility that someone like Marianne would rather remain dead then see her loved ones place themselves in harm’s way or compromising themselves by making shady deals.
                  I agree with this. The problem with the scoobies resurrecting Buffy has ultimately to do with how it shows them being unable to accept her death as final and move on. It's a psychological flaw not a moral one which makes sense because of the real world resonances not the made up mythology.

                  Giles's argument with Willow in Flooded wasn't on the basis that Buffy would not wanted to have been resurrected but that the risks to Buffy (who still appeared damaged) and more importantly to Willow herself and the world made the attempt unthinkable. Willow disagreed with his risk analysis then and still does in A&F. She knows it's risky but she believes it is possible and that a possibility of success (however low the probability) outweighs the risks associated with failure. Basically she thinks Giles is wrong about the facts not the morality and therefore would be unlikely to bring it up in an argument with Angel. From her point of view it's irrelevant that Giles is more risk-averse than she is. It might be different if he had a religious objection to resurrection of the kind she now seems to accept Tara had.

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                  • #39
                    Well, I certainly wasn't expecting this to happen: after the entire Buffyverse season 9 had sunk to the low point (with both Buffy and Angel & Faith having several awful issues in a row and the Willow title not looking terribly promising), this season isn't looking so horrible anymore and may even turn out to be somewhat OK? The Spike title, which I had been cautiously optimistic about, had a really intelligently written latest issue (Spike #4) which addressed Spike's character and his relationship with Buffy with some depth (which we hadn't seen in the main Buffy title with its "Spike is a vampire, Buffy needs normal" preoccupations); and, more surprisingly, the latest two issues of Angel & Faith, the title I had been the most disappointed and annoyed with for most of the season, have turned out to be really good. And that after this title had sunk to the absolute nadir with the dreadful Family Reunion arc. The Hero of His Own Story was a pleasant surprise (and for once, even the sexist objectification of Buffy could be justified, since it's in character for both Whistler and Angel, not just based on the Riley one-shot but also Becoming I), and Death and the Consequences pt 1, while not perfect, is the best issue of the season so far (granted, in a very poor competition). This is more like the story I expected after A&F #1.

                    Now, if only the Buffy title stops being so dull and shallow... If Willow:Wonderland turns out better that it looks like based on the first issue, and if A&F continues in this vein, maybe this season can be salvaged? But after all the bad writing over most of the season, I'm not ready to trust Gage not to screw it up again.

                    It should be noted that A&F has so far been the best whenever it's focused on Whistler (who was such a minor character on BtVS the show and never even appeared on AtS) and the original characters (Nadira, Pearl and Nash), rather than on the many pointless and mostly OOC guest star appearances of various well known Buffyverse characters. (Let's hope Spike fares better.) Which is completely the opposite of what is happening in the Buffy title. But it's because these are the characters that have the strongest connection to Angel's season 8 actions and the Twilight plot, as the perpetrators or the victims. It's not surprising that the title is much better when it tries to address season 8 head-on than when it tries to sweep it aside. (And maybe it's also due to the fact that Gage is just not that good at writing many of the well known characters IC.)

                    Regarding the story itself, I don't have much to add to what others have said. I would add that there is a parallel between Faith in this issue and Angel in the previous one. While Faith has to stop going along with Angel and falling for his crap because she feels she owes him for helping turn her life around her when she was at her lowest, Angel has had to stop trusting Whistler and falling for his crap because he felt Whistler had pulled him from the gutter and helped him turn his unlife around.
                    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                    • #40
                      Angel and Faith 1.16 bullet points and analysis

                      I’ll mostly discuss the ‘cliffhanger’ stuff in my Angel and Faith 1.17 bullet points and analysis. One of the reasons this is late is because I wanted to skim through A&F 1.17 before posting.


                      Overall, this Issue wasn’t compelling. It would have been if Nadira and Co. could actually kill Angel (they can’t unless Joss wants to kill him and wants Nadira and Co. to have that honor) or if Faith was actually going to abandon Angel (she isn’t at least for another 9 Issues, which means another 9 months of reading these comics). Pretty much the only compelling thing that happened is Nadira and Co. breaking ties with Faith. But that will likely only result in less screen time for Nadira and Co., or no screen time for Nadira and Co., or Nadira and Co. being killed. So, production-wise, they will be punished for Faith siding with Angel over her fellow Slayers.

                      As for Faith breaking ties with Angel, that will only happen if Angel is going to have his own ‘show’ again. And his comics aren’t selling that well even with Faith in them and in the title.

                      ________________


                      * Angel should still have money from his Angel Investigations business and his Wolfram and Hart compensation, so is he paying for things like his airfare?

                      * I wonder if Faith is flying first class, business class, or coach.

                      Those seem to be business class or first class seats.

                      * Art observation: Rebekkah Isaacs draws Faith with a relatively flat butt, thus being accurate to Eliza Dushku’s figure.

                      I’m still unhappy that her Drusilla looks like she’s in her 40s.

                      * Angel to Faith: “If you worked demolitions I’d be running for my life.”

                      Given what Angel did in BtVS S8, it’ll always not be amusing when Angel says any such thing.

                      * Faith is concerned with even members of a drug cartel getting proper burials and having their families notified.

                      Yet she’s helping a guy responsible for possibly millions to hundreds of millions of deaths.

                      * So, Angel’s plan includes having Giles have to continuously wear a Crown of Coils on his head or else he’d decompose?

                      * On the plane, Angel is on the aisle seat next to Faith. He has a sweatshirt on with the hood up.

                      * Did that conversation with Giles actually happen, or is that all in Faith’s head?

                      I lean towards it’s in her head given she’s discussing mentoring Slayers.

                      * Faith is wanting guidance from Giles even though in BtVS S8, Giles did stupid things like not informing Buffy of Genevieve and not informing Buffy of the SuperSlayer and SuperVampire Prophecy.

                      Why wouldn’t she want guidance from Buffy?

                      And she’s betraying Buffy by not telling her of the Giles resurrection plan.

                      * Giles to Faith: “[W]hile you are quite guarded with people, once you do become attached to them, your loyalty is extreme. To the point that you place their interests above your own, even when it causes you harm.”

                      Since this is most likely a conversation that only happens in Faith’s head, this is what Faith is thinking. Her extreme loyalty only applies to the Mayor and to Angel. She was never relatively that loyal to Buffy or the Scoobies. Even with Giles, in BtVS S8 she did that assassination mission partly for Buffy.

                      As for putting their interests above her own, it’s not as if the Mayor wasn’t providing her with anything. That was more-or-less a mutual relationship. So, this only applies to A&F with Angel.

                      * Giles to Faith: “But you’ve seen firsthand there are those who can’t be helped …. Those so damaged they can only drag anyone who seeks to aid them into their morass of pain and dysfunction.”

                      I don’t know whom she’s referring to as “those who can’t be helped”, maybe Drusilla and those Dru was trying to help.

                      But this is obviously Faith thinking that maybe Angel can’t be helped and that her helping him is only resulting in her hurting herself.

                      * Faith is having a brandy or something and she has like Bose headphones.

                      Timeline: at least they aren’t Beats by Dr. Dre.

                      * It takes both Angel and Faith to lift the stone lid of the sarcophagus and they both strained to do it.

                      In “Something Blue” (4.09), Buffy and Spike easily lifted such a lid and carried it to a door.

                      In “Blood Ties” (5.13), Spike at one end of the stap lifts and tosses a lid several feet away and it wasn’t a struggle.

                      Unless Giles’ sarcophagus lid was unnaturally heavy, this suggests that Buffy and Spike combined are stronger than Angel and Faith combined and that an enraged Spike can have bursts of strength that are more than Angel and Faith’s combined ‘normal’ strength.

                      * It seems odd that when they lifted the coffin, Angel and Faith didn’t notice that it was a little light.

                      * Faith’s house is 3 stories, how are there only 3 bedrooms in that thing?

                      * Does Faith not know about teleportation? Someone could have magically teleported Giles’ body out of the coffin.

                      * Was Giles’ funeral closed casket, or did none of the Scoobies, or Faith go to the funeral.

                      Given Faith telling herself that she’s extremely loyal, did she stay with Angel instead of going to Giles’ funeral even after Giles gave her his entire estate?

                      * The big showdown between Nadira and Faith over Faith’s keeping Angel’s whereabouts a secret and Faith being friends with Angel amounted to Nadira scolding Faith for around two minutes and then breaking ties with Faith.

                      * Nadira to Faith: “[T]he two of you fought Drusilla back to back, in a burning church in front of dozens of witnesses.”

                      First off, this implies that Nadira seems to consider that Angel and Faith would need to fight together in order to try to defeat Drusilla.

                      Secondly, this implies that the “witnesses” are those that Dru was helping and that none of them was okay with Angel killing the Lorophage demon and none were okay with Angel and Faith trying to fight Dru.

                      * Nadira to Faith: “[Angel] murdered an entire unit of Slayers last year. My sisters.”

                      This is new information. Nadira doesn’t mention Pearl and Nash. She says Angel himself murdered this unit. If so, this refutes any argument that Angel wasn’t directly killing people in BtVS S8.

                      * Faith to Nadira: “He was under the influence of Twilight. Which I know you think was him, but it was, like, this massive cosmic force of -- Jesus, even I don’t understand it…”

                      First off, does Faith actually believe this? If she did, why wouldn’t she be telling Nadira and Co. this from the start?

                      Has Angel told Faith this?

                      Or is Faith simply trying to rationalize Angel and her to Nadira?

                      Is Faith trying to rationalize to herself her helping Angel?

                      Anyway, given A&F 1.11, what Faith says isn’t true.

                      Faith is possibly out of earshot – or wasn’t paying attention – when in A&F 1.11 Angel tells Willow: “Once we’d given the Twilight universe form, I was going to bring everyone over!” Angel speaks to Willow as if he’s responsible for everything that happened until Twilight literally possessed him. So, Angel wasn’t under any influence when he killed the Slayers.

                      Willow in A&F 1.11 is told by Angel that he would have brought everyone into Twilight. Whether she believes that or not is another debate. But the fact is that she doesn’t seem to know for sure that Angel wanted everyone to die.

                      What if Faith believes – or is trying to rationalize to herself – that Angel was under the influence of Twilight the whole time? Is that how she’s justifying helping him out? What if she finds out or finally acknowledges that Angel is fully responsible for all the damage in BtVS S8 other than maybe killing Giles and trying to kill Spike?

                      * Lavinia doesn’t want to deal with dead Slayer; Sophronia wanted to stay but she is shooed out by Lavinia.

                      * Apparently Angel and Faith were gone for days.

                      * Did Nadira and Co. see Drusilla kill the Slayer?

                      There’s a flashback. In it, Dru simply slashed the Slayer’s throat.

                      * Nadira then accuses Angel of letting Dru go.

                      What does Nadira mean? That Angel didn’t want Faith and him to kill Dru?

                      * Angel to Nadira: “I didn’t [let Dru go.] Her followers attacked us. She ran. We tried to find her, but hey were chasing us. By the time we lost them, there was nothing we could [do].”

                      Angel’s pretty much trying to lie his way out of the situation. Angel did not to try to dust Dru. Angel was only there to try to keep Faith mentally unstable and miserable.

                      By the way, once they realize Angel can’t or is unwilling to help them, why couldn’t they try to dust Angel? They could always come back with more Slayers if they think that the five of them couldn’t take on Angel and Faith. Nadira left the house threatening Angel, but who knows what will come of that.

                      * Nadira to Angel: “Of course not. You kill demons and monsters and elder gods like you’re swatting bloody flies. But one vampire keeps getting away from you. One vampire you “sired.” Isn’t that what you leeches call it? One vampire you shagged. One vampire you spent a hundred years slaughtering people with. Now another girl’s dead. One more body on the pile. And here you are, full of excuses, reasons why it’s not your damn fault--”

                      Who is telling Nadira this stuff? What elder gods? Angel was with Dru for 18 years. Does Nadira know about Darla? I wonder how she’d handle Angel/Darla of AtS s2 and AtS s3. Or even Angel/Darla in BtVS S1. Does Nadira know about Spike?

                      Anyway, Dru was being peaceful and helping. It’s Angel’s fault that she’s insane again. And if Dru killed Slayers, she did it because they were trying to attack her. So, Nadira has the wrong reasons for being against how Angel tried to handle the Drusilla situation in A&F.

                      * Faith says the Slayer they brought in that Dru killed wasn’t a good Slayer.

                      So, this possibly explains why Dru was able to kill her so easily. Then again, Drusilla very easily killed Kendra and very little indicates that Faith wouldn’t also be killed by Dru in a fight. A&F 1.09 suggests not only that Drusilla is stronger than Faith but that she’d beat Faith even if Faith were armed with a sword or stake.

                      * Does Nadira not know about magic works and how a person is not supposed to come back from a natural death?

                      * Nadira asks Angel and Faith why should Giles (who’s old) deserve to be brought back more than a nice 23 year old Slayer who provided housing for homeless Slayers.

                      It’s a nice question, but Giles is full of knowledge and that’s possibly more useful to the world than a nice Slayer who doesn’t even slay (or at least doesn’t even want to slay).

                      And was Andrew lying about that foundation he said he created? Why are there homeless Slayers? Do these homeless Slayers not know about the job opportunities that Slayers are getting (like being bodyguards)?

                      * Nadira accuses Angel and Faith of them wanting to bring Giles back not because it’s the right thing to do, but because it’s what Angel wants.

                      And Angel and Faith’s guilty expresses answers that is it mainly for Angel, not Giles.

                      * Nadira tells them that they are going to bring back the Slayer instead of Giles or she’s going to kill both of them.

                      She could probably round up a bunch of Slayers and actually succeed in killing them. There are very likely at least hundreds of Slayers in the world who would want Angel dusted.

                      * If a powerful witch or warlock can be brought back from the dead, why wouldn’t Willow have brought Tara back?

                      How would Angel know about such a spell if apparently even Willow doesn’t? And does Angel not know about Tara? Why wouldn’t he have told Angel about the resurrection spell he’s going to use on Giles?

                      * We never find out the “one important thing that makes Giles different from anyone else. That kept his soul from moving on when he--.”

                      * Nadira decks Angel. She has stake on her. So, why is Angel so casual with her when she has an easy access stake on her hip?

                      Is it significant that Nadira is powerful enough to punch Angel to the ground?

                      * Angel tells Nadira those souls moving on to where they go after death is not a magical process, that it’s a natural process.

                      This makes sense since souls are a natural part of people. And because if this weren’t true then it would imply that souls are put in people through magic and therefore any new child born would be soulless. And there’d be no reason for why Angel would still have a soul since he only has one because of a curse.

                      * Nadira parts by telling Angel that unless he can help them bring their Slayer friend back from the dead that he’ll be dusted.

                      Obviously, Nadira and Co. for ‘production-reasons’ are highly unlikely to dust Angel, so I wonder how this plotline is gong to go away. Either Nadira and Co. forget about wanting to kill Angel, get past wanting to kill Angel (which wouldn’t make much sense), or they are killed.

                      * Nadira parts by telling Faith that since Faith decided to protect Angel and be friends with him that Faith’s made her choice and therefore Nadira and Co. wants nothing more to do with her.

                      Nadir and Co. seem sad about having to break ties with Faith.

                      It seems that they could have demanded that Faith give them housing. And that’s an interesting thing. Did Faith not know that some Slayers were being made homeless? Here she is having Angel live with her when there are Slayers out there without homes. Did Faith forget what it was like to live in that really crappy motel?

                      And why didn’t Angel offer money to Nadira and Co. to help out homeless Slayers. He should still have at least hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of dollars from his monies from Angel Investigations and his Wolfram and Hart compensation.

                      * Faith won’t let Angel comfort her.

                      * Nadira doesn’t know what Giles looks like?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                        * Faith is concerned with even members of a drug cartel getting proper burials and having their families notified.

                        Yet she’s helping a guy responsible for possibly millions to hundreds of millions of deaths.
                        Ah, how are the two antithetical? You said it yourself. She's "even" showing respect to unsavoury members of a drug cartel. That's not contradictory whatsoever with her helping somebody like Angel who probably doesn't "deserve" it. What would be hypocritical was if she housed Angel despite everything that he did but didn't show these men the proper respect just because they were caught up in drugs.

                        * Did that conversation with Giles actually happen, or is that all in Faith’s head?

                        I lean towards it’s in her head given she’s discussing mentoring Slayers.
                        Pretty obvious it's meant to be a flashback. Why would it be in her head because they're discussing mentoring Slayers? That's what Faith and Giles set out to do in S8, remember? I'm sure they had many discussions about mentoring Slayers.

                        Why wouldn’t she want guidance from Buffy?
                        "I think you need to brush up on your Buffy and Faith history"

                        I don’t know whom she’s referring to as “those who can’t be helped”, maybe Drusilla and those Dru was trying to help.
                        "She's" not referring to anything because it's quite obviously a flashback to a conversation she shared with Giles. And Giles obviously isn't referring to Drusilla as they hadn't crossed paths with her in S8.

                        * It takes both Angel and Faith to lift the stone lid of the sarcophagus and they both strained to do it.

                        In “Something Blue” (4.09), Buffy and Spike easily lifted such a lid and carried it to a door.

                        In “Blood Ties” (5.13), Spike at one end of the stap lifts and tosses a lid several feet away and it wasn’t a struggle.

                        Unless Giles’ sarcophagus lid was unnaturally heavy, this suggests that Buffy and Spike combined are stronger than Angel and Faith combined and that an enraged Spike can have bursts of strength that are more than Angel and Faith’s combined ‘normal’ strength.


                        * Does Faith not know about teleportation? Someone could have magically teleported Giles’ body out of the coffin.
                        Someone could have "magically" teleported her in a world with no magic? Teleportation isn't meant to be possible anymore, remember? That's why Buffy queries why Illyria was able to teleport her in 9.16. There's no reason Faith should suspect this.

                        * Nadira to Faith: “[T]he two of you fought Drusilla back to back, in a burning church in front of dozens of witnesses.”

                        First off, this implies that Nadira seems to consider that Angel and Faith would need to fight together in order to try to defeat Drusilla.
                        It doesn't imply any such thing. At the end of #14 Nadira was told by one of her fellow Slayers that Angel and Faith were seen fighting back to back against Drusilla and her mob. She's literally just repeating to Angel and Faith what she was told by the witnesses.

                        And I hate to break it to you, MikeB, but Nadira doesn't agree with you that Drusilla is so awesome and Angel's such a pansy. She's angry at Angel for letting Dru go when he usually kills demons like he's "swatting flies". She obviously believes Angel was capable of dusting Dru if he wanted to and is pissed off that he didn't.

                        * Nadira to Faith: “[Angel] murdered an entire unit of Slayers last year. My sisters.”

                        This is new information. Nadira doesn’t mention Pearl and Nash. She says Angel himself murdered this unit. If so, this refutes any argument that Angel wasn’t directly killing people in BtVS S8.
                        It's an obvious reference to what we were told in #1. She doesn't mention Nash and Pearl because as far as she's concerned Angel ordered the kill and therefore did murder an entire unit of Slayers. It's irrelevant to her whether or not he did it was his own bare hands.

                        * Faith to Nadira: “He was under the influence of Twilight. Which I know you think was him, but it was, like, this massive cosmic force of -- Jesus, even I don’t understand it…”

                        First off, does Faith actually believe this? If she did, why wouldn’t she be telling Nadira and Co. this from the start?

                        Has Angel told Faith this?
                        Again, this is a reference to the scene in #1 when Angel tells Faith he doesn't remember the slaughter of Nadira's squad because he was heavily under Twilight's influence at the time. This is not new information.

                        Anyway, Dru was being peaceful and helping. It’s Angel’s fault that she’s insane again.
                        Drusilla was soulless and evil. She wasn't "helping" anyone.

                        And if Dru killed Slayers, she did it because they were trying to attack her.
                        So? Does that mean The Master was justified to kill Buffy because she attacked him first? Drusilla is evil and the Slayers were doing their duty by attacking her. There is no justification for what Drusilla did. She's an evil creature who committed evil by murdering a good woman. End of.

                        Is it significant that Nadira is powerful enough to punch Angel to the ground?
                        Why would it be significant? An ordinary human is strong enough to punch a vampire to the ground so why wouldn't a Slayer be? Gunn frequently knocked vampires to the ground and Xander punched Spike to the ground in Normal Again. Kennedy had been a Slayer for two minutes and she was throwing an Ubervamp around like a ragdoll. Dana had been a Slayer for 6 months and she hurled Spike out of a window and flung Angel across the room. Of course a Slayer is powerful enough to punch Angel to the ground.

                        It seems that they could have demanded that Faith give them housing.
                        Ha! Who are they to "demand" Faith give them anything? It's Faith's house and she can do what she damn well pleases with it. She chooses to help these Slayers of her own accord and isn't forced to do a blessed thing.

                        * Nadira doesn’t know what Giles looks like?
                        Why would she? Slayers like The Decoy had never even seen Buffy before and Aiko didn't see her until WatG. What makes you think the 500 girls in Buffy's organisation had all seen Giles?
                        Last edited by vampmogs; 27-12-12, 12:58 PM.
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                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                          Overall, this Issue wasn’t compelling. It would have been if Nadira and Co. could actually kill Angel (they can’t unless Joss wants to kill him and wants Nadira and Co. to have that honor) or if Faith was actually going to abandon Angel (she isn’t at least for another 9 Issues, which means another 9 months of reading these comics). Pretty much the only compelling thing that happened is Nadira and Co. breaking ties with Faith.
                          I disagree. I think it's actually one of the most compelling issues of either series. I think the previous A&F was better (the one with Whistler, Nash & Pearl's origins) but that's because that issue was chock full of juicy exposition and I love me a good villain story. This was a strong issue, one of the best entries in A&F and certainly better than anything in BtVS season 9 that I can remember.

                          Then again, I'm here to enjoy the story. I don't have an agenda where unless the story kills Angel I won't enjoy it.

                          But that will likely only result in less screen time for Nadira and Co., or no screen time for Nadira and Co., or Nadira and Co. being killed. So, production-wise, they will be punished for Faith siding with Angel over her fellow Slayers.
                          For starters, you don't know how this story is going to end, so your speculations that Nadira and her Slayers will die is pure, baseless speculation. Will they receive less "screentime" now that they have cut ties with Faith? Possibly. But aren't you the first one to claim that you don't use "production reasons" as arguments in your posts?

                          As for Faith breaking ties with Angel, that will only happen if Angel is going to have his own ‘show’ again. And his comics aren’t selling that well even with Faith in them and in the title.
                          As far as comics go, I believe this title is still selling pretty decently.


                          * Angel should still have money from his Angel Investigations business and his Wolfram and Hart compensation, so is he paying for things like his airfare?

                          * I wonder if Faith is flying first class, business class, or coach. Those seem to be business class or first class seats.
                          I'll never understand why you're so hung up on details like the characters bank accounts, or the social status their wealth can buy them. Angel was able to stay in they Hyperion and in a nice apartment when he had zero income. It's never explained how he got the mansion. Buffy was supposed to be poor during BtVS season 6 and yet she was wearing a new outfit each week. The school nerds are attractive guys. Spike is well groomed for a guy who rarely has access to a shower. This is the world of TV and comics. I very much doubt that the writers have thought extensively about what Drusilla's human social status was. Angel has as much in his bank account as the plot needs him to have. I doubt he's a millionare. Maybe he has several thousand, maybe he's got no savings whatsoever. Maybe he's got a cave somewhere with a stash of treasure. What class did Faith fly in? It's an unimportant detail. We won't find out because it's not important.

                          * Angel to Faith: “If you worked demolitions I’d be running for my life.”

                          Given what Angel did in BtVS S8, it’ll always not be amusing when Angel says any such thing.
                          It was supposed to be light-hearted banter between friends. I like this kind of stuff.

                          * Faith is concerned with even members of a drug cartel getting proper burials and having their families notified.

                          Yet she’s helping a guy responsible for possibly millions to hundreds of millions of deaths.
                          As vampmogs mentions, the two aren't antithetical to each other.

                          * So, Angel’s plan includes having Giles have to continuously wear a Crown of Coils on his head or else he’d decompose?
                          No, once Giles has his soul back in his body he won't need to wear the crown because he'd be alive again by that point. The crown is only needed to be used once, to heal the dead tissue so that Angel is putting the soul into a fresh body instead of a decomposing one. Giles would not need to continuously wear the crown. The drug lord was going to rot again because his soul had moved on.

                          Now, what might be an interesting question is what would happen if Angel wore the crown. Angel has a soul and the purpose of the crown is to restore dead tissue. Would this turn him human?

                          I was a little annoyed that after Angel decapitated that lizard demon he said that it wouldn't hold them off for long. Yet when he faced those guys that were regenerating because of the Mohra blood, he's able to kill them with decapitation and mentions that it's the only way to permanently kill regenerators. It's been previously implied that decapitation could kill a vampire who has had that magical heart transplant or even the Ring of Amara. I'm going to fanwank it that the lizard demon that chased them out of the cave was a different one to the demon that Angel decapitated.

                          * On the plane, Angel is on the aisle seat next to Faith. He has a sweatshirt on with the hood up.
                          Another prime example of vampire sun resistance fluctuating when the plot needs it to. A vampire using a hoodie to survive sunlight is something that would not have happened in the early seasons. It's a little silly to be honest, I would have liked Angel to be wearing sunglasses at least. I imagine that they eyes would be especially sensitive.

                          * Did that conversation with Giles actually happen, or is that all in Faith’s head?
                          Faith spent most of season 8 with Giles as a mentor to lost Slayers and this series is filled with Giles flashbacks. I don't know why you would assume that this flashback is something that Faith is just imagining rather than something that did literally happen.

                          It tells us far more about Faith's state of mind and her relationship with Giles if its something that actually happened rather than just a daydream. I don't know why you would get that impression at all... Do you think some of the flashbacks from the show were just daydreams?


                          Why wouldn’t she want guidance from Buffy?

                          Yeah, this one is too silly to even bother refuting

                          And she’s betraying Buffy by not telling her of the Giles resurrection plan.
                          Yeah, you need to get past the idea that Buffy is their god. Faith is an independent person who can do as she pleases. Buffy isn't automatically the boss of everyone, especially Faith. There are many reasons why Faith would not want to inform Buffy of the resurrection. Faith may still want the option to change her mind at the last minute, the spell could go wrong and they may have to put down zombie-Giles in which case telling Buffy would only be painful.

                          Timeline: at least they aren’t Beats by Dr. Dre.
                          Regarding the timeline, again this is something that you need to get past. The story takes place in "comic book time" which means that if the issue is released tomorrow, it takes place in "present day", and if the issue is delayed for two years it still takes place in "present day". Season 8 took place about a year after Chosen and while season 7 may have had a set year for the story to take place, the comics don't. Comics take longer to make than an episode of TV and unlike TV the characters don't have to age. So you should stop trying to pin down what year this takes place in. It's "comic book time" and there is no definitive year for the story. The story will make current pop culture references and use current technology because that's what works for the story, it's not a statement on when specifically the story is supposed to be set.

                          * It takes both Angel and Faith to lift the stone lid of the sarcophagus and they both strained to do it.

                          In “Something Blue” (4.09), Buffy and Spike easily lifted such a lid and carried it to a door.

                          In “Blood Ties” (5.13), Spike at one end of the stap lifts and tosses a lid several feet away and it wasn’t a struggle.

                          Unless Giles’ sarcophagus lid was unnaturally heavy, this suggests that Buffy and Spike combined are stronger than Angel and Faith combined and that an enraged Spike can have bursts of strength that are more than Angel and Faith’s combined ‘normal’ strength.


                          I really think I should put the bolded part as my signature, it really is that hilarious.

                          The writers don't care or think about these kind of "powerlevels" for the characters. It's more dramatic and symbolic if Angel and Faith lift the lid together because they are in this story, this journey together. If Faith or Angel lifted the lid by themselves, the symbolism would imply inequality to how much they are committed to this plan. Them straining to lift the lid can be interpreted as symbolic of how much effort they have been through in the pursuit of this plan. The symbolism here is more important than the stats of each character and how much they can bench press.

                          But if you need to fanwank an actual, literal reason then we could say that Angel and Faith are trying to lift the lid quickly and quietly unlike the examples you gave. Also take into account that they are reaching down into a grave to pull it out, they aren't pushing at something that's on the same level as them like the examples you gave with Spike. And hey, maybe Giles lid really was made out of something heavier. And since this is a comic and they were lifting it in a single panel, you don't know how much effort they were actually exerting to lift the lid. It's up to the reader to interpret how long they were straining for or how hard. All you've got to go by is the look on their faces -you don't know how long it actually took them to lift it or how sore their muscles were afterwards.

                          Also, you don't know how much direction in this scene actually came from Joss Whedon himself. Do you think that in the script there was a note attatched from Joss saying "remember to depict Angel and Faith straining to lift together because they aren't as strong as Spike"? Somehow I doubt it. Maybe it was Gage's choice to have them lift the lid together. As for the strained look on their faces, you don't know that came from Whedon, hell you don't even know it came from Gage. Maybe it could have been an artistic choice that came purely from Rebecca Issacs. Maybe Issacs would have been thinking how to best depict the scene artistically rather than concerning herself with the "stats" of the characters. I very much doubt that Whedon, Gage or Issacs wanted to stress the importance of Spike being stronger than a combined Angel and Faith...

                          * It seems odd that when they lifted the coffin, Angel and Faith didn’t notice that it was a little light.
                          For two people with superstrength, I doubt the weight of a decomposed body would make that much difference when they are lifting an entire coffin. And again, you've missed the point of the scene artistically. If they noticed the weight of the coffin was wrong right away, that would have robbed the scene of the dramatic reveal where the coffin is opened and there's no body. The punch of that shot is more important than having Angel and Faith spoil that moment by noticing something is wrong too early in the scene.

                          * Does Faith not know about teleportation? Someone could have magically teleported Giles’ body out of the coffin.
                          Magicless world.

                          * The big showdown between Nadira and Faith over Faith’s keeping Angel’s whereabouts a secret and Faith being friends with Angel amounted to Nadira scolding Faith for around two minutes and then breaking ties with Faith.
                          That's a pretty big deal considering that aside from Angel, Nadira is the only person Faith feels close to right now.

                          * Nadira to Faith: “[T]he two of you fought Drusilla back to back, in a burning church in front of dozens of witnesses.”

                          First off, this implies that Nadira seems to consider that Angel and Faith would need to fight together in order to try to defeat Drusilla.
                          Uh, no. Nadira is just repeating the information that was told to her. Angel and Faith fighting back to back includes Drusilla, the Lorophange demon, the dozens of human and handful of vampires that were hanging out with Dru. Nadira is not talking about how awesome Drusilla is, in fact she is blaming Angel for not taking care of Drusilla himself which she considers him capable of doing.

                          Secondly, this implies that the “witnesses” are those that Dru was helping and that none of them was okay with Angel killing the Lorophage demon and none were okay with Angel and Faith trying to fight Dru.
                          Drusilla was not helping those people, she was giving them an artificial fix by taking away their guilt and pain with a demon instead of allowing them to deal with their problems properly. Drusilla was offering them a cheap shortcut. Faith may have no longer felt the pain of her father hurting her, but this lets him off the hook too easily and opens up the door for him to hurt her again and would require Faith to get another fix from the Lorophange demon. So it's not a long term solution or healthy way of dealing with ones problems. Also, Angel was right when he said that Faith had become less when the Lorophange took away her guilt over her murders because killing someone is something that you should feel guilt over and that's a concept that Drusilla is incapable of understanding. Christos Gage has said that Drusilla's methods make the people "less human" by taking away their guilt and pain.

                          Furthermore, who gives a crap if Drusilla's groupies were "not okay" with Angel killing the Lorophange demon? Angel killed it while defending himself. The Lorophange was about to drain Angel against his will. He had every right to defend himself against this demon.

                          * Nadira to Faith: “[Angel] murdered an entire unit of Slayers last year. My sisters.”

                          This is new information. Nadira doesn’t mention Pearl and Nash. She says Angel himself murdered this unit. If so, this refutes any argument that Angel wasn’t directly killing people in BtVS S8.
                          As vampmogs said, this is a reference to issue #1 where Angel is watching Nash and Pearl butcher the Slayers. It would be like someone saying that Hitler killed over 5 million Jews, that doesn't mean that he killed them personally with his own hands, but he is being held accountable because they were killed on his orders. So no, this is not new information and it does not contradict information from season 8 that states that Angel didn't kill any Slayers with his own hands. Yes, he had them killed by Nash and Pearl and that's still horrible. But Angel didn't go around personally killing them, this is a reference to Slayers being killed on Angel's orders. Unless of course any time you hear about Hitler killing millions of Jews you think he did that with his own hands...

                          * Faith to Nadira: “He was under the influence of Twilight. Which I know you think was him, but it was, like, this massive cosmic force of -- Jesus, even I don’t understand it…”

                          First off, does Faith actually believe this? If she did, why wouldn’t she be telling Nadira and Co. this from the start?

                          Has Angel told Faith this?

                          Or is Faith simply trying to rationalize Angel and her to Nadira?

                          Is Faith trying to rationalize to herself her helping Angel?

                          Anyway, given A&F 1.11, what Faith says isn’t true.
                          In issue #1 its stated that sometimes Angel was so under Twilight's control that he doesn't even remember certain stuff that happened such as Nash and Peal killing Nadira's Slayer unit. Why wouldn't Faith tell Nadira this from the beginning? Well for starters she didn't even want Nadira to know that she was associating with Angel. Secondly, that still doesn't make it okay. Angel may have been under the influence or possessed at times, but that still doesn't let him off the hook because he's the one who put himself in that position to begin with. In issue #1 he even says that he should have asked more questions and knew at points that he should have backed away but he chose to push forward. He was under the influence and possessed at certain points during season 8.

                          Faith is possibly out of earshot – or wasn’t paying attention – when in A&F 1.11 Angel tells Willow: “Once we’d given the Twilight universe form, I was going to bring everyone over!” Angel speaks to Willow as if he’s responsible for everything that happened until Twilight literally possessed him. So, Angel wasn’t under any influence when he killed the Slayers.
                          That doesn't contradict the face that Angel was under the influence and sometimes possessed.

                          Willow in A&F 1.11 is told by Angel that he would have brought everyone into Twilight. Whether she believes that or not is another debate. But the fact is that she doesn’t seem to know for sure that Angel wanted everyone to die.
                          He didn't want "everyone" to die, he figured that he could bring most people over to Twilight. He certainly would not have wanted Connor or Gunn to die. He knew that there would be bloodshed, but he didn't know that the death toll would be so high or that things on earth would escalate so quickly once the Twilight dimension was formed. This does not make Angel in the right or excuse his actions, he was still firmly in the wrong but he did not want to kill "everyone" on earth like you want to imply.

                          * Nadira then accuses Angel of letting Dru go.

                          What does Nadira mean? That Angel didn’t want Faith and him to kill Dru?

                          * Angel to Nadira: “I didn’t [let Dru go.] Her followers attacked us. She ran. We tried to find her, but hey were chasing us. By the time we lost them, there was nothing we could [do].”

                          Angel’s pretty much trying to lie his way out of the situation. Angel did not to try to dust Dru. Angel was only there to try to keep Faith mentally unstable and miserable.
                          We don't know what Angel would have done to Dru if he caught her. We do know that Angel couldn't get to her because the crowd of followers did attack Angel and Faith. So Angel is not lying here.

                          By the way, once they realize Angel can’t or is unwilling to help them, why couldn’t they try to dust Angel? They could always come back with more Slayers if they think that the five of them couldn’t take on Angel and Faith. Nadira left the house threatening Angel, but who knows what will come of that.
                          They aren't going to dust Angel on the spot because he's got knowledge and resources that could help them resurrect Marianne. He may not be able to do it right away, but they are giving him a chance to figure it out because they don't know if things with Giles will pan out. If they dust Angel and then discover that Giles can't help them then they are pretty much screwed, no? Better not to dust Angel just yet.

                          And yes, I believe that five Slayers could more than likely take down Angel and Faith. I think Nadira is pretty badass.

                          * Nadira to Angel: “Of course not. You kill demons and monsters and elder gods like you’re swatting bloody flies. But one vampire keeps getting away from you. One vampire you “sired.” Isn’t that what you leeches call it? One vampire you shagged. One vampire you spent a hundred years slaughtering people with. Now another girl’s dead. One more body on the pile. And here you are, full of excuses, reasons why it’s not your damn fault--”

                          Who is telling Nadira this stuff? What elder gods? Angel was with Dru for 18 years. Does Nadira know about Darla? I wonder how she’d handle Angel/Darla of AtS s2 and AtS s3. Or even Angel/Darla in BtVS S1. Does Nadira know about Spike?
                          Elder gods could be a reference to Jasmine, Illyria, James (from the IDW ongoing) Rowant Mor (also IDW), Twilight-cat, Twilight-Buffy, Quor-Toth, Whistler (he's half PTB), Olvikan-Wilkins, Seed-Master or the Hellmouth Spawn. It's true that Angel didn't actually kill any of these people, and he certainly didn't deal with them like swatting flies but Nadira is likely exaggerating for effect and due to grief. And all this information is second hand news to her, she didn't see any of it herself.

                          Anyway, Dru was being peaceful and helping.
                          Nope, she was doing it for the free blood and the groupies. The people weren't being helped properly no matter how much you want to believe.

                          It’s Angel’s fault that she’s insane again.
                          Angel was defending himself against the Lorophange demon. It's Drusilla's fault for getting the demon on him. And regardless of whose fault it is, the fact remains that Drusilla is now insane, evil and needs to be put down.

                          And if Dru killed Slayers, she did it because they were trying to attack her. So, Nadira has the wrong reasons for being against how Angel tried to handle the Drusilla situation in A&F.
                          You don't know that the Slayers were trying to attack her. It could have easily been Drusilla attacking the Slayers. And even if the Slayers were trying to attack her, so what? She's a vampire, they are Slayers. As Vampmogs says it would be like saying that the Master was justified in killing Buffy because she attacked first. It doesn't matter who started it, Dru's a vampire. She's now insane again which means that she's a threat to everyone around her. She wasn't killing currently because of her newfound sanity which is now gone. And even if she never kills again (something I find very hard to believe) she's still earned herself the death sentance hundreds of times over due to past actions. So no, I can't feel sorry for Drusilla here and I won't see Marianne as the bad guy.

                          * Faith says the Slayer they brought in that Dru killed wasn’t a good Slayer.

                          So, this possibly explains why Dru was able to kill her so easily.
                          I do prefer it that Drusilla killed a subpar Slayer rather than what we saw in the previews to her (now cancelled) miniseries where she was able to effortlessly plow through three of them. I'm glad that didn't make it into the canon.

                          Then again, Drusilla very easily killed Kendra and very little indicates that Faith wouldn’t also be killed by Dru in a fight. A&F 1.09 suggests not only that Drusilla is stronger than Faith but that she’d beat Faith even if Faith were armed with a sword or stake.
                          No, nothing indicates that Drusilla is stronger than Faith or that she'd beat her in an uninterrupted fight to the death. That's your personal interpretation, not something that was suggested in the issue with any degree of solidity that the rest of us should take seriously. If Drusilla weren't using her hypnosis I'd place my bets on Faith.

                          * Does Nadira not know about magic works and how a person is not supposed to come back from a natural death?
                          Even if she does know this, she knows that Angel is close to finding a way around it with Giles.

                          And was Andrew lying about that foundation he said he created? Why are there homeless Slayers? Do these homeless Slayers not know about the job opportunities that Slayers are getting (like being bodyguards)?
                          Andrew's foundation is unlikely to find every single last Slayer who needs help. He might help as many as he can, but it's unlikely that he could help everyone especially those in other countries.

                          Kennedy's company is based in the US and therefore largely useless to Slayers who live in England. Also, one of Kennedy's conditions is that they give up slaying which is probably not something that Nadira and her Slayers would want.


                          * If a powerful witch or warlock can be brought back from the dead, why wouldn’t Willow have brought Tara back?
                          A good question. This idea that Giles can be brought back from a natural death even in a magicless world because he had ties to magic just opens up more questions. Because yes, Tara and Doyle and Wesley and Cordelia also had ties to magic. It really makes no sense that Giles soul would scatter into objects. We've seen Cordelia visit a few times from the afterlife and it was implied that Tara is in heavan. This plot point makes no sense really.

                          How would Angel know about such a spell if apparently even Willow doesn’t?
                          Exactly. On a slightly related not, this is why your idea about Spike casting the Acathla-forcefeild spell is so silly.


                          And does Angel not know about Tara? Why wouldn’t he have told Angel about the resurrection spell he’s going to use on Giles?
                          Angel never met Tara. I find it unlikely that he knew about her.

                          * We never find out the “one important thing that makes Giles different from anyone else. That kept his soul from moving on when he--.”
                          I'd like to know the end of this sentence. For it to make sense it would have to be something that made Giles different from Wesley, Cordelia, Doyle, Tara and Jenny.

                          * Nadira decks Angel. She has stake on her. So, why is Angel so casual with her when she has an easy access stake on her hip?
                          What do you mean by "casual"? And what do you expect Angel to do, run upstairs and hide under the bed?

                          It seems that they could have demanded that Faith give them housing.
                          Yeah, I'm with Vampmogs, I don't see how they can "demand" what Faith does with her money and her property.


                          And why didn’t Angel offer money to Nadira and Co. to help out homeless Slayers. He should still have at least hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of dollars from his monies from Angel Investigations and his Wolfram and Hart compensation.
                          I don't think Nadira would accept money from Angel. She would see it as an insult and I'm sure Angel knows this.


                          * Nadira doesn’t know what Giles looks like?
                          I doubt she ever met him.
                          Last edited by Vampire in Rug; 28-12-12, 10:38 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            vampmogs

                            * My quote: “Faith is concerned with even members of a drug cartel getting proper burials and having their families notified.

                            Yet she’s helping a guy responsible for possibly millions to hundreds of millions of deaths.”


                            My point is Faith seems to care about “even members of a drug cartel getting” killed, yet “she’s helping a guy responsible for possibly millions to hundreds of millions of deaths”.


                            * My quote: “It takes both Angel and Faith to lift the stone lid of the sarcophagus and they both strained to do it.

                            In “Something Blue” (4.09), Buffy and Spike easily lifted such a lid and carried it to a door.

                            In “Blood Ties” (5.13), Spike at one end of the slab lifts and tosses a lid several feet away and it wasn’t a struggle.

                            Unless Giles’ sarcophagus lid was unnaturally heavy, this suggests that Buffy and Spike combined are stronger than Angel and Faith combined and that an enraged Spike can have bursts of strength that are more than Angel and Faith’s combined ‘normal’ strength.”


                            That can’t be argued against and it seems you only had a problem with the “an enraged Spike can have bursts of strength that are more than Angel and Faith’s combined ‘normal’ strength.”, which is simply either character bias against Spike and/or you not knowing about strength works.


                            * My quote: Nadira to Faith: “[T]he two of you fought Drusilla back to back, in a burning church in front of dozens of witnesses.”

                            First off, this implies that Nadira seems to consider that Angel and Faith would need to fight together in order to try to defeat Drusilla.”


                            Nadira did not say something like “The two of fought Drusilla and her loyal followers/mob back to back.” She calls Drusilla’s loyal followers “dozens of witnesses”, not people also against Angel and Faith and fighting against Angel and Faith.


                            * A&F S9 Nadira probably wouldn’t much mind if both Angel and Faith died while trying to kill Drusilla. Albeit I remember Christos Gage wrote Spike acting as if Uncursed Angel was a threat on the level of someone like Glory or Full-Powered Illyria; consequently, maybe Nadira did assume Angel and Faith could kill Drusilla. Notice how I said “Angel and Faith”—Nadira didn’t say Angel alone should have been able to kill Dru.


                            * Angel’s words aren’t automatically fact. Angel lied to Willow about the events in Twilight and Angel almost certainly lied to Faith regarding his culpability as AngelTwilight.

                            The only time we know Angel was under at least some “influence of Twilight” was when Twilight possessed him in BtVS 8.38(?) through BtVS 8.40.


                            * Drusilla was helping her followers, they considered she was and she was. Dru was being peaceful and following Harmony’s Rules. It’s Angel’s fault that Dru’s insane again.


                            * Unless you are arguing that Angel should have let Nadira dust him, you have zero valid arguments regarding being against Drusilla’s killing Slayers in self-defense.


                            * Do you actually consider that ANGEL was more deserving of Faith’s financial assets and property than homeless Slayers were?

                            If anyone told a member of the UK Government, Interpol, the FBI, the US Government, the CIA, etc. who Faith was housing aka Twilight, Faith would be in serious legal troubles and probably rightly executed.

                            It’s quite telling that you consider Drusilla was evil for helping her followers and yet Faith is perfectly fine to be Angel’s benefactor yet Faith doesn’t need to do anything to help homeless Slayers.



                            Vampire in Rug

                            * A&F S9 gave around zero reasons why Angel shouldn’t have been killed after BtVS 8.40. The reason came up with in Season 10 is Giles’s suddenly being more magically powerful than Dark Willow was, which is asinine and makes around zero sense.

                            I'll never understand why you're so hung up on details like the characters bank accounts, or the social status their wealth can buy them.
                            Did you forget BtVS S3? BtVS S6? AtS s3? AtS s5? Really all of the TV Whedonverse? This: “characters bank accounts, or the social status their wealth can buy them” is an important part of the TV Whedonvere and life in general.

                            - “Inside Out” (A 4.17) made Angel’s getting the Hyperion Hotel make sense.

                            - It isn’t difficult to understand how Angel could have the money for his apartments and clothes and furniture: Angel could have money from his Angelus days and Angel didn’t have wives, kids, and heirs.

                            - Angel could have been simply squatting in the Sunnydale mansion and maybe he was then renting.

                            - Buffy in BtVS S6 only needed money for property damage, bills, etc. It was never implied that she had to buy her own clothes, buy health insurance for Dawn and herself, etc. I’ve always reasoned that Hank Summers was paying Buffy’s credit card bills and was giving some money beyond and/or Buffy adopted Dawn or was Dawn’s guardian and thus getting government money for taking care of Dawn.

                            The school nerds are attractive guys.
                            Huh? What school nerds are attractive guys? Warren Meers was dating Katrina. Andrew Wells didn’t seem much into girls. Jonathan Levinson isn’t an attractive guy. Xander Harris got with Cordelia Chase.


                            * It doesn’t seem Spike and Drusilla sweat. It wouldn’t be too difficult for they to be well-groomed.

                            I very much doubt that the writers have thought extensively about what Drusilla's human social status was.
                            Have you forgotten Drusilla and her backstory? “Drusilla's human social status” is a defining part of her character.


                            * Faith is spending money that Giles bequeathed her. It’s absolutely important if she’s buying Angel First Class airfare with that money.


                            * Faith should have informed Buffy and Co. of the Giles resurrection plan.

                            Faith called Buffy The Slayer and acknowledges Buffy as having such jurisdiction. Faith’s not informing Buffy and Co. of the Giles resurrection plan is simply a symptom of Faith’s mollycoddling Angel.


                            * It’s is fact that the writers care about the power levels of the characters and it’s beyond silly to argue otherwise.


                            * Angel and Faith lift the sarcophagus lid together because they needed to lift it together.

                            Them straining to lift the lid can be interpreted as symbolic of how much effort they have been through in the pursuit of this plan.
                            That’s not how strength and lifting works.

                            then we could say that Angel and Faith are trying to lift the lid quickly and quietly
                            That’s not how strength and lifting works.

                            Also take into account that they are reaching down into a grave to pull it out, they aren't pushing at something that's on the same level as them like the examples you gave with Spike.
                            That’s not how strength and lifting works. Maybe you’ve never done any weightlifting. And Spike didn’t push the lid: another scene you’ve perhaps misremembered and/or forgotten.

                            Also, you don't know how much direction in this scene actually came from Joss Whedon himself. Do you think that in the script there was a note attatched from Joss saying "remember to depict Angel and Faith straining to lift together because they aren't as strong as Spike"?
                            Are you suggesting that A&F S9 isn’t canon?

                            Maybe it was Gage's choice to have them lift the lid together. As for the strained look on their faces, you don't know that came from Whedon, hell you don't even know it came from Gage. Maybe it could have been an artistic choice that came purely from Rebecca Issacs.
                            Now you’re suggesting that no one looks over the artwork before the comic is published?


                            * I didn’t say Spike is stronger than Faith and Angel combined: that’s a straw man argument (SMA).


                            * Drusilla’s followers were there and grateful to her because medicine and therapy weren’t enough to deal with their emotional and psychological problems. Your saying this: “Drusilla was not helping those people, she was giving them an artificial fix by taking away their guilt and pain with a demon instead of allowing them to deal with their problems properly.” is incredibly insensitive and incredibly insulting and disparaging to anyone who could benefit from something like the Lorophage demon.


                            * Faith would have been mentally healthy if the Lorophage demon were used on her. Faith had many more emotional and psychological problems than her Daddy Issues.

                            Also, Angel was right when he said that Faith had become less when the Lorophange took away her guilt over her murders because killing someone is something that you should feel guilt over and that's a concept that Drusilla is incapable of understanding. Christos Gage has said that Drusilla's methods make the people "less human" by taking away their guilt and pain.
                            I remember Christos Gage also said that Angel was redeemed before A&F S9 began. I remember how Angel and peoples’ reactions to Angel are written in A&F S9 and BtVS S10. Angel himself in A&F S9 not only considered he only needed to feel bad about killing Giles, the Giles resurrection plan main goal for Angel was the possible renewed chance for Buffy/Angel.

                            Furthermore, who gives a crap if Drusilla's groupies were "not okay" with Angel killing the Lorophange demon? Angel killed it while defending himself. The Lorophange was about to drain Angel against his will. He had every right to defend himself against this demon.
                            Again, that is incredibly insensitive and incredibly insulting and disparaging to anyone who could benefit from something like the Lorophage demon. In addition, I’d be willing to bet that you don’t consider Drusilla should have killed Slayers in self-defense.


                            * What is in BtVS S8 is canon. What is canon is Angel was willing to let the entire world and all its life be destroyed if it resulted in Buffy’s staying in Twilight with him. What is canon it that Angel was actively trying to prevent Buffy from wanting to leave Twilight to help her friends and the world. What is canon is that Angel didn’t tell Buffy about anyone else being able to be brought into Twilight. What is canon is that Angel didn’t try to bring Buffy’s friends and family into Twilight. What is canon is Angel wanted Buffy to let her friends and family die.

                            Angel lied to Willow in A&F S9. Angel tried to make himself seem a hero while in Twilight and Buffy the villain for wanting to leave Twilight.


                            * After Angel and Faith left the church, Faith wanted to pursue Drusilla and try to dust her (another demerit on Faith given Faith is mollycoddling Angel). Angel didn’t want to pursue Drusilla and Angel didn’t want Faith to try to kill Dru. It’s made clear that Angel cares about Dru and likely still loves Dru.


                            * Drusilla does not “need to be put down”. It’s cost-benefit analysis. Buffy didn’t even pursue Harmony Kendall at the end of “Crush” (B 5.14). Buffy since “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22) has known that trying to dust Dru would be bad for the world overall.

                            ANGEL needs to be put down. Dru hasn’t been even apocalyptically evil since BtVS S2. Angel’s been world-endingly evil since BtVS S2.


                            * Given you don’t want Angel dead, you have zero valid arguments regarding your considering Drusilla should be dusted. This is particularly provoking: “And even if [Drusilla] never kills again (something I find very hard to believe) she's still earned herself the death sentance hundreds of times over due to past actions.”


                            * My quote: “Then again, Drusilla very easily killed Kendra and very little indicates that Faith wouldn’t also be killed by Dru in a fight. A&F 9.09 suggests not only that Drusilla is stronger than Faith but that she’d beat Faith even if Faith were armed with a sword or stake.”

                            That is what is literally shown.


                            * My quote: “If a powerful witch or warlock can be brought back from the dead, why wouldn’t Willow have brought Tara back?”

                            It’s clear that the main reason—and probably only reason—for the Giles resurrection plan was to try to help the Buffy/Angel ‘ship. If someone could have been brought back from a natural death, Willow would have done it probably in BtVS S6 or BtVS S7 or BtVS S8.


                            * Willow did her first major spell in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22). We already saw Spike do the spell to heal Drusilla. We already saw Spike hire the Order of Taraka, get the Judge together, etc. There’s little to suggest Spike wasn’t capable of ‘containing’ Acathla.


                            * Willow knew about the Fang Gang members. Willow even knew about Connor. Why wouldn’t Angel know about Tara?

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