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Angel & Faith #16 Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

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  • #16
    Fantastic issue. #16 really benefited from having several different threads all come to a head at once. We finally had Nadira confront Angel, the unhealthiness of the Angel and Faith relationship is called directly into question, the plan to resurrect Giles is kicked up a notch, and the Slayers learn of Faith's deceit. On top of that they throw in a marvelous Faith/Giles scene, some great commentary on death, and a twist I don't think anybody could have predicted. If there's one thing I would have liked to have seen in this issue, it would have been some small reference to #15 and what had went down with Whistler. It just feels slightly odd not to have that mentioned given it's significance to the overall arc of the book. But it's a minor quibble.

    My favourite part of this issue was the exploration of how damaging Angel has been to Faith. A&F is not without its faults but by far the best thing about it is how Gage has written the relationship between the two protagonists. It has been consistent since #1 and I love that this issue ends with both characters realising just how much it has hurt Faith. It's not all Angel's fault, Faith has to take responsibility for how she let Angel go ahead with his quest despite her reservations, and nobody forced her to lie to the Slayers, but I'm greatly sympathetic to her. I totally get why she's so loyal to Angel and why she's so torn between helping him and doing what is right.

    One of my favourite scenes in this issue was the discussion they share about testing the McGuffin on the corpse of the drug dealer. In a way, you almost can respect Angel for acknowledging that they've already crossed lines and are going to cross way worse than this if they go through with resurrecting Giles. At least he's being honest and not deluding himself about that. On the other hand, if he realises that and is still going ahead anyway then, again, Angel is willing to commit evils for what he perceives to be a greater good.

    For the same reason, I loved that Faith brushed Angel off when he offered for her to look away as they were about to open up Giles's coffin. If she's really going to go ahead with this then she doesn't get to not face exactly what she's doing. I don't think she should be doing this and I was really disappointed that Faith was going to let it get this far, but if she's really going to stand by and let it happen then she'll damn well face up to it and I can admire that, at the very least.

    As usual, Nadira was fantastic and her scene with Angel was spot on. Most of all I loved how she confronted Angel about resurrecting Giles and if this is something Giles would even want, or if it's just something to alleviate his own guilt. It actually seemed to really get through to Angel so there's a little hope for him yet.

    This was a really great issue.
    "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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    • #17
      I loved this issue a lot! I was really hooked with all the events of the issue and Nadira's arguments. Just a great issue and the last panel: OMG!

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      • #18
        I think Artea is right that one of the truly great moments was the lampshade at the expository trainwreck of Twilight with Faith just giving up halfway into trying to rationalize it.

        I do hope that the Giles flashback is there to emphasize more about her relationship with Angel than her relationship with Nadira. Nadira doesn't make a single false rhetorical step, every point she make scores, every argument she makes is completely reasonable, and it was very gratifying to see both Angel and Faith abashed by it.

        I almost want to see Angel and Nadira pick up the thread that Buffy and Faith put aside, the one we see manifesting every time a vampire has exploded into dust between them with the one not sure why she's even trying to save the other anymore ("Consequences", "Who Are You", it may have happened in other episodes, too). I really hope the last hurdle they clear is Nadira either declining to kill him (the old stake in the shoulder/stomach?) or having a clean hands excuse to let him die but deciding to save him. In either case, just staring coldly at him and walking away, that's where the two of them should leave things. It leaves some tacit acknowledgement from her that there may, might, maybe just be something about him worth continuing to exist, but that she still hates him and probably always will.
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        • #19
          Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
          The real and important reason for Fred, and for Giles, and for Tara, has never had anything to do with blah blah magic-sounding bullshit, but it's had to do with narrative integrity -- if things that happen in your story don't have consequences that are real and permanent, than your story is increasingly hollow and superfluous. High on that list? Characters dying.

          I am, for the reason of preferring a sophisticated and mature story where the things that happen matter because they last, don't want Giles resurrected. But, if this isn't (as it seems most likely) some Ethan and/or Eyghon trick, and it's actually Giles, I'd at least take some satisfaction that he wasn't back because of Angel. Honestly, if they were going to cop out on Giles being dead, than make it so Angel killed a Warren-bot of Giles or a "Life Serial"-esque slime golem of Giles.
          So in your estimation, what was the long lasting consequences of bringing Buffy back from the dead? Or Spike? Or Darla?
          I disagree with your black and white assessment quite a bit. Sometimes the meat and potatoes is in the emotion of the story. Sometimes the viewer is misled and taken to a horrible place only to, at the last moment, receive a reset moment. See the end of Twilight for an example of what I mean.

          It's a twist and while we can sit and disect it until the cows come home or until the specifics are all thrown down nice and messy, it doesn't negate the wonderful moment given. For my favorite characters and especially the core four and Angel? I will take just about any excuse as to why they are back in the story. Without the foundation? No story, regardless of how much "narrative integrity " is present.

          I wouldn't hate your second point because like I said...don't care how it happens just that it happens.

          Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved!

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          • #20
            Finally got my copy of Angel & Faith # 16,Part I "Death And Consequences."I think most people have hit the major things in the issue so I'll keep it short.Really enjoyed the issue.

            It feels like this arc is continuing the payoffs started last issue with the Whistler and Pearl & Nash reveals.We finally got a showdown between Angel & Faith and Nadira.Also loved the Giles flashback and it speaking to Faith's current situation.

            And what can be said about the surprise ending with Giles that hasn't been said.I think it might be Ethan in Giles body but we also know Ehygon is going to factor into this arc so maybe it is inhabiting Giles.

            So another great issue iMO

            Here's Karios summary/review of the issue.

            http://perpetual.livejournal.com/127179.html

            A&F #16, Summary and Review

            Starts with the preview pages. Angel and Faith are in Peru, fighting some lizardy demons who keep regenerating until they're burned to ash by Angel's grenade. Demons dead, they leave with a MacGuffin, which Faith helpfully tells us is a McGuffin. It's a crown that the lizards were using to regenerate, and they test it by putting it onto a decayed corpse. Faith objects to this, but it works - the corpse is now freshly dead. Angel says that they're almost ready with a soul to reinsert into Giles' body, and that he's going to leave the crown with Alasdair for study. The next step is to dig up the body.

            On the plane ride home, Angel sleeps and Faith looks out the window and remembers a conversation she had with Giles. (I'm guessing this is a memory rather than Faith imagining it, due to the background of Slayers working out on the countryside.) Giles is telling an irate Faith that her loyalty toward the people she's attached to is extreme, "to the point that you place their interests above your own. Even when it causes you harm." With their new project of helping problem Slayers, he worries that those who can't be helped will drag her down into their own dysfunction. Faith summarizes the conversation as him telling her to watch her ass, and asks if they're cool. Back in the present, she remembers him smiling as he replies, "Yes. We are most definitely cool," and a tear falls.

            Page turn, they're back in London and digging up Giles. When they get the coffin out, Angel tells Faith she doesn't have to look, but she does, and he opens it up. It's empty. Page turn, they're at home talking to the aunts, who first blame Angel for "losing" their nephew and then admit that they might know a lot of people who would be involved in something like a grave robbery. As Faith is telling them to make a list, there's a loud knock at the door, and she looks through the peephole and sees Nadira and a crowd of other Slayers, looking Angry. Angel says he's going to leave by the roof, but he stops when Nadira yells through the door that she knows Angel is there.

            Faith, shocked, opens the door and confronts Nadira, saying it's not her business. Nadira replies that Faith made it her business by lying about it, and brings up what Angel as Twilight did to her friends. She interrupts Faith's defense, that Twilight wasn't Angel, by saying that she's not here about that but about one dead Slayer. She steps back to reveal that they have a body on a stretcher with them. They all come in, and the Fairweather sisters leave to give them space.

            The dead Slayer was killed by Drusilla, which Nadira blames on Angel and Faith because she knows they fought her and thinks they should have been able to win - and also because she knows Angel sired Drusilla. Another Slayer cuts into the rant to remind Nadira that they're here for the dead girl, Marianne. She and Faith talk about what a kind, giving person she was, and then Nadira points to Angel and insists that he's going to bring her back. She knows about the plan to resurrect Giles, and that they're close to success. She says that Marianne deserves to be revived instead, that even Giles would agree, and that she'll kill both Angel and Faith if they don't comply.

            Angel asks Nadira about whether Marianne was in any way involved with magic in her life, and when the answer is no, he says he can't help and starts to explain why. She knocks him down with a punch, saying he's a liar and that since the Seed was destroyed, no one's soul can move on. Angel disagrees - "I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Death is a natural process. I don't know the specifics, but souls still go where they belong when someone dies." Nadira holds a stake to his chest and says he's just saying what he wants to be true, and that if he can't or won't bring Marianne back, this can only go one way. Another Slayer stops her, saying she got a text from a ghoul and that Plan B's a go. They have to move fast, so Nadira backs off from Angel and says he's got some time to come up with an answer. Before she leaves, though, she informs Faith that they want nothing more to do with her.

            When they're alone, Angel starts to touch Faith's shoulder. She tells him not to, and he turns away, both of them in their own pain.

            The next page follows the group of Slayers with Marianne's body to a mansion in Guilford, guarded by two big men in suits. They know who she is and let her in, but show no reaction to her implied threat or anything else as they walk the group through the lavish halls and into a sitting room. They're welcomed by someone sitting in an armchair, whose face we can't see. He thanks them for coming and offers them tea, which Nadira angrily rejects. She gets them straight to the point - they brought their dead friend, and they heard he knows something about resurrecting the dead.

            On the last page, the angle spins around so we see the speaker. It's Giles, smiling and holding a steaming cup of tea and even touching his glasses. "Why, yes..." he says, "...You might say I have some experience in that area."

            *

            GUYS LET'S SHARE SOME BUFFY COMIC MEMORIES. Remember Twilightgate? The big surprise got spoiled and in the issue in which it was supposed to be revealed for the first time, Scott Allie kicked off the lettercol with an abashed "Uh...didn't see that coming...did you...?" Punchline? This time the lettercol started with, "Did you see that coming...?"

            And nobody did! Except those of us who read the spoilers yesterday. I think it's about time to break myself of that habit. I always forget that it makes a difference when it's a good comic.

            Possibilities, in the order in which I think of them:

            That's not Giles.
            -It's Ethan.
            ---Ethan didn't die at the beginning of Season 8.
            -----Or he did, but his soul got trapped in magical items, and Ripper's body was easier for him to revive than his own. (Didn't his head get blown off?)
            -------He performed this stunt without a body. This is beginning to sound unlikely.
            ---------Or he had help!
            ---Ethan's got no better reason than chaos, as usual. Boring!
            -----Or he does, which brings up important questions about Why Giles.
            -It's some random evil thing. Booo-ring!

            It's Giles, but he's changed.
            -He's evil now, bummer.
            ---He didn't bring himself back.
            -----Or he did, but didn't understand what would happen.

            It's the real Giles.
            -He's got a plan.
            ---Which apparently involves Nadira, or how would she find him? Actually, this one's true whether or not it's the real Giles.
            -----And he's got a rep for resurrection, so he's done this on more than his own body.
            -------Sounds more like Ethan than Giles, huh?
            -----He's living in apparent safety and comfort, so he's in control of his situation.
            -------Also in wealth and shady dealings, so he's apparently indulging himself in a very un-Gileslike manner.
            ---------Or wealth and shady dealings are consequences of his master plan.
            -----------In which case you wouldn't think he'd look quite so chill about it.

            What I really want to know is who else knew about this. The automatic answer is nobody, but what kind of light would it cast on Buffy's story if she was in on it? No wonder Giles is barely getting a mention - she misses him, but she knows he isn't gone for good. And Xander's in on it, though I fail to understand why that's causing him to worry more about Dawn. Maybe Giles has been protecting her from dissipating, somehow?

            Doesn't seem possible that Angel was in on anything, unless it was so important for him to hide it from Faith that he fought demons in Peru and dug up a grave just so he could pretend to be shocked that it was empty. But here's an unfinished sentence that sounds like it probably matters: "And even with that, there's one important thing that makes Giles different from anyone else. That kept his soul from moving on when he--" I'm pretty sure we haven't heard about this before. Add it to Angel's beliefs about how the end of magic hasn't disrupted the natural life cycle (and honestly I'm totally ready to just take his word for it, because no other explanation will make me happy), and I think I can adjust my old theory a little. Angel is indeed trying to resurrect Giles, but it's purely for the purpose of letting his soul move on. I'm not sure why he needs a body for that, but damn. If you knew your dead friend was trapped in nine objects...or was it seven...

            Another line I hope is more significant than it looks is, "As one who's worked with Slayers for...well, the exact amount of time isn't relevant..." Okay, this could just be Giles not wanting to discuss his age. But didn't we always assume that Buffy was his first Slayer? That's not a hard number of years to calculate, and it doesn't say anything about his age. Does he not want to talk about Buffy's predecessors? Why?

            And, damn. I just realized I was the opposite of right in my summary. The Slayers in the background in the dream scene mean it's not a memory; Giles wasn't around when Faith started that project. Okay, I'm still not feeling like it's pure imagination. Faith couldn't do Giles' voice that well. Memory on top of different memory? Literal dream? Projection from the mind of whatever version of Giles is still out there? Sure doesn't seem like an evil one. He's right about the way Faith operates, and the danger of her being pulled into Angel's or Nadira's downward spiral is real.

            This really isn't a review, but I think speculation is more fun this time. Just for starters, we apparently have someone in play right now who can put a soul back into a fresh corpse. We also have someone who can turn vampires into fresh corpses. These guys should get together, no?

            Keep talking, I'm sure I have more to say on this...

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            • #21
              I generally liked this issue -- certainly I think it's the best A&F issue in a long time, probably in the whole run of the series. BUT -- it's still got a lot wrong with it, so, ahem, a few complaints for balance:

              Has Giles ever said "spot of tea" before? I guess maybe he's not really Giles, which is why he's talking super stereotypey.

              Generally, I still don't like Gage's dialogue. I don't like the words he uses. Alas. I think a big part of it is that he doesn't use concision for the most part in his dialogue. Even Giles' last line takes *forever* to say -- compare the rhythm of "and yes I have some experience in this area" (I'm going off memory here) to the other big shock-last-minute-Giles-reveal, "I'd like to test that theory," which has exactly the right rhythm for a shock splash page (which is part of why Joss reused it for Willow's entry in season eight, as well as to have Willow paying homage to her mentor). There is a lot of monologuing, and monologuing without poetry, in Gage's writing; I can never feel that there's a rhythm to any character's speech.

              Further, as I was discussing with Emmie off the forums, the hagiography on how that slayer who died was just the most wonderful person who ever personned was really anvilicious. I kept expecting Nadira to say, in between long speech bubbles about how amazing this girl was, to say "Now if it were Sally here [gestures to another slayer] who had died, I wouldn't care!" I get the point that she was a good person who died, but it's tragic even without the long dialogue about how she didn't even want to slay and was so peace loving and kissed puppies in her spare time.

              In addition to all of that: did Nadira et al. really just bring the body around first to Angel's, and then to Giles-I-guess-it-is'? Maybe they should just have a few slayers guard the body while Nadira goes around and does the errands looking for people to help resurrect her; I can't imagine that carrying a corpse around is going to help their mobility. It's a minor detail, but it is kind of silly.

              OOOOOK, so, that said, this is a rocking story for an issue, which means that all is forgiven, or, at least, more so than usual.

              1. OK, that is a pretty fantastic last page reveal (I knew it was Giles before turning the page, though I thought it could maybe be Ethan instead). The question of course is how, whether that's the real Giles, etc.

              2. Nadira's calling Angel on his B.S. was great. But her calling Faith on hers is even better. Nadira could very well be written as an antagonist with respect to Angel -- she has clear reason to hate him, and to think the worst of him, which is entirely valid but is still not balanced out by any fuzzy feelings. But she has fuzzy feelings for Faith, and so for her to lay into Faith actually means a lot, in addition to the strength of her arguments (that Faith betrayed her and the girls by lying to them about Angel being there).

              It's worth thinking about Faith's keeping Angel a secret from Nadira in comparison to Buffy keeping Angel a secret from the Scoobies in early s3. The question of how deeply to demarcate Angel from Twangel is similar to the question of how deeply to demarcate Angel from Angelus. In s3, Buffy and the Scoobies were both badly hurt by Angel(us)' behaviour in the previous year, but while nearly every Scooby had been very close to being killed by Angel(us), only Giles really had suffered directly on the same level as or greater than that Buffy had (though a case could be made for Willow, since she was both closer to Jenny than Buffy and went into a coma). While Angel did punch Faith in #33 and he also killed Giles, it doesn't quite compare to the level of pain he inflicted on those near to Nadira. On the other hand, Faith had an established relationship with Angel and implied debt far before she'd met Nadira, whereas Buffy's relationships with the gang (not counting Oz, who was not a major factor anyway) and with Angel started around the same time.

              Most importantly, though, Buffy was not telling people about the Angel who was basically a wounded kitten at the time -- he may have been abstractly dangerous, and he did manage to get that Glove somewhere, but he wasn't running around wreaking havoc. He also was, you know, living in his own house. Faith has Angel put up in her flat and he still treats her like his Girl Friday. Buffy did in several crucial ways have the Angel situation under control, ways that Faith doesn't. (OTOH, Faith hasn't kissed him either.)

              More to the point, it is really crucial that even the way I've framed it here makes clear that in both situations, Angel more or less checks out very early on of taking responsibility for the way he's hurt others. In early s3 he was still pretty out of it, but he has had quite a while in A&F to think about how maybe he can make life easier for Faith by figuring out how to come clean to Faith's closest charge about how he floated by and watched her friends get killed. If Angel has thought about what kind of position Faith is in because of him, and the fact that his very presence is essentially forcing Faith's hand into betraying her sister-slayers, I haven't seen evidence of it. Maybe the reason I preferred Nadira criticizing Faith to her criticizing Angel is that Angel is already so far beyond the bend it's not even interesting to see him called out on it -- Faith is the one who might actually change and grow at least in the near future.

              3. I'm really glad to see Dru brought up here -- because Drusilla has always been Angel's responsibility, and he's never known what to do with her. Angel's big moments of taking responsibility for Dru directly include trying to get himself staked to prevent her return to power in "What's My Line? Part 2" and setting her on fire in "Redefinition" before this season. I was not a big fan of the "Daddy Issues" arc (though I disliked it less after the "Family Reunion" arc brought the bar even lower), but while I found Angel's posturing particularly annoying for various reasons, I do think that he a) was generally right that removing people's pain is an unwise emotional shortcut, and b) arguably had a right to prevent the Locutus demon (I'm doing the Buffy thing of mispronouncing demon's names for fun and profit) (I might not be doing it well) from sucking out Angel's own pain against his will, even if that meant restoring others' pain. But had Angel not been under direct threat of the Lorthophage fundamentally altering him, I would have been dead set against it. Whether or not it's right to remove one's pain (and I agree that it's probably not), Angel doesn't get to decide to remove PTSD survivors' method of coping, even if it's wrong, unless those people are threats to others, which we didn't see direct evidence of.

              The thing that made Drusilla "dangerous" within the "Daddy Issues" arc was that she was something akin to a drug pusher, selling artificial happiness to people so that they could join her cult. That is pretty crappy and it's fine for Angel to oppose her. But the funny thing is, of course, that the alternative to drug-pusher Drusilla is horrible-murderer Drusilla, and Angel, by re-integrating Dru's pain back in her, turns victims of Drusilla from hiding from their traumas in an unhealthy manner to being very dead. Insofar as one of Angel's central problems is bursting in and heroing things up without thinking of the consequences, this is, er, a big consequence.

              Well, there is obviously more to say but those are things that stuck out for me in this issue.

              EDITED point 1
              Last edited by Local Maximum; 01-12-12, 02:32 AM.

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              • #22
                Great post Max!

                I agree with you about some of the dialogue. I don't think it's terrible or anything but I don't think Gage has ever really mastered Giles's voice. It always sounds a bit too polished and proper. I remember this was a criticism many of us shared of #1 and unfortunately Gage hasn't really improved in this area.

                I don't think Giles has ever said "spot of tea" but he did offer tea to Gwendelyon Post a lot -- "Some tea, perhaps?" "Would you like some tea?"

                And I agree about it being too wordy and overblown when they were talking about the Slayer. It's pretty much the same problem that plagued all the Angel/Connor scenes in Family Reunion. I think it's probably just a matter of taste but I do think Gage has a habit of being overly saccharine and a lot of the dialogue just feels unnecessary. You could shave off a lot of those lines and get to the point far quicker.
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                • #23
                  Great post, Local Max! Nadira's OTT eulogy to St. Slayer *was* annoying.

                  Angel is really in a PR/ethics conundrum re: the question of whether souls can pass onto other dimensions in the Seedless world. Angel would like to believe that the Seed-breaking had no effect on how death operates so he doesn't have to add "denied millions of souls their ability to Rest In Peace" to his long bill of screw-ups.

                  However, he has his own own resurrection project in the form of Giles to contend with. Giles's soul allegedly didn't make it another dimensions but instead Giles's soul was divided into different items. Has Angel stopped to examine why this happened as he's preaching on how other folks' make it to other dimensions so there's no need for the slayers to worry their pretty little heads about that.

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                  • #24
                    Haha. Well, Giles offering tea is certainly not OOC. The "spot of tea" thing is. I wish it had been lettered "spo' o' tea" just to go all the way.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Local Maximum View Post
                      Haha. Well, Giles offering tea is certainly not OOC. The "spot of tea" thing is. I wish it had been lettered "spo' o' tea" just to go all the way.


                      Aren't we supposed to be getting some young!Ripper flashbacks in this arc? It'll be interesting to see how Gage writes his dialogue. It'll probably just go to the totally opposite extreme, although to be fair, the only time we've seen young!Ripper was in Band Candy and he was written pretty stereotypically then too.
                      "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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                      • #26
                        In fine Buffyverse fashion, they are just trying to have it both ways. Angel is talking his hopes, I guess, but at least a chunk of that was to send that up as a trial balloon to the audience -- probably specifically as a way of saying they plan on skating around the question of the Seedless world and the afterlife altogether.

                        I was fine with Nadira's rant about her friend. It was reminiscent both of the Scoobies' talking about Willow in "Doppelgangland" or Willow talking about Tara in "Villains". I don't assume that she is this flawlessly virtuous person Nadira describes -- but it's still significant in terms of how much hubris is on display when Angel and Faith just get to decide who to try to violate the laws of nature for on their own criteria. Why doesn't Nadira get to decide? It's a very important point that I don't think Angel (or, now, Faith) can come out of this without learning.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
                          Great post, Local Max! Nadira's OTT eulogy to St. Slayer *was* annoying.
                          THEORY: the slayer was actually a totally rude and annoying person, and she got hit by a bus. Nadira decided that didn't have enough zest so they made up a cover story. The only disadvantage is that this would imply Dru didn't do it. Though -- the idea of just flat-out lying about what happened in order to push Angel's buttons sounds hilarious. Um. I think I should be taking this more seriously. I liked the issue, remember, self!

                          Angel is really in a PR/ethics conundrum re: the question of whether souls can pass onto other dimensions in the Seedless world. Angel would like to believe that the Seed-breaking had no effect on how death operates so he doesn't have to add "denied millions of souls their ability to Rest In Peace" to his long bill of screw-ups.
                          lol. Right. I kind of zoomed past that part because my basic assumption has been, and until it's uncontrovertably overturned, will probably continue to be, that "normal" deaths are the same as in our universe -- i.e. they maybe lead to nothing, maybe lead to heaven or hell, maybe something else we have no idea about, etc. And so when Angel talks about expertise, he's just guessing, and in that read it would make sense that the Seed breaking wouldn't fundamentally change the mechanism. But since creativity, ability to cope with sadness and ability to see all the colours of the rainbow are affected by the Seed's destruction, it's really unclear that "oh yeah, souls sort of just go on however they've been doing, somehow" is a reliable account.

                          We have Willow's "We don't know. What happens. Why" to go by in "The Body" which, as the definitive natural death episode in the 'verse, is probably good to take on faith.

                          However, he has his own own resurrection project in the form of Giles to contend with. Giles's soul allegedly didn't make it another dimensions but instead Giles's soul was divided into different items. Has Angel stopped to examine why this happened as he's preaching on how other folks' make it to other dimensions so there's no need for the slayers to worry their pretty little heads about that.
                          Yeah, I mean, the question of how Giles' soul got ENTIRELY put into pieces of magic but everyone who has done less magic than Giles passed on kind of confuses me. Are we to assume that Tara's soul is lying in a bunch of floating (but decaying) roses, that Jenny's soul is floating around the internet somewhere like Moloch, preventing traffic signal mishaps from the beyond? I mean, considering that one of the small but of order of magnitude ten items Angel collected contained "one day of Giles' life," (in issue 1) so I feel like Angel would need around 25,000 more nipple piercings to make up a full Giles. I'm mostly joking here (presumably there are other pieces of Giles that make up more than "one good day with Jenny," and, also possibly, "one good day with Jenny" counts for more than a year of beating up coppers in the final analysis, with soul fragments being not necessarily measured by chronological length).

                          Maybe Giles should have sold his soul to a loan demon like the one in "Double or Nothing" for a truck (or, I guess, a horse) and that way it would stay with him after he's gone, provided Giles didn't fall in love again and then Angel could just get Giles back by punching, as he is wont to do. (Brought up just as a reminder to myself that A&F is not the silliest the soul canon has ever been.)


                          Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                          I was fine with Nadira's rant about her friend. It was reminiscent both of the Scoobies' talking about Willow in "Doppelgangland" or Willow talking about Tara in "Villains". I don't assume that she is this flawlessly virtuous person Nadira describes -- but it's still significant in terms of how much hubris is on display when Angel and Faith just get to decide who to try to violate the laws of nature for on their own criteria. Why doesn't Nadira get to decide? It's a very important point that I don't think Angel (or, now, Faith) can come out of this without learning.
                          I agree in principle, but the thing is, Doppelgangland was meant to be funny -- I thought of Doppelgangland throughout, and was waiting for one of the slayers in the back to say "better than me" and Nadira to continue "yes. much better." Villains has Willow speaking of Tara in glowing terms but doesn't drone on about her virtues for...panels? (I said pages, but I guess that's not true of Nadira either.) It's less that it's OOC for Nadira or anything as that it's not very fun to read and strikes me that Gage, rather than Nadira, genuinely believes that the best girl died when any twenty-year-old girl dying is more than enough reason to force Angel to reconsider his priorities.

                          I do agree entirely with your final point though. The only argument I can see that Nadira doesn't get to decide who to resurrect is that Angel and Faith have put the work in to getting the resurrecting powers, so they get precedence -- but that is pretty weak from a moral pov. Giles is Giles and all, but a middle-aged man who's already suffocated a man to death is not more intrinsically deserving than a young woman who's never had a chance to live an adult life.
                          Last edited by Local Maximum; 01-12-12, 02:23 AM.

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                          • #28
                            I actually found Nadira to be plain unreasonable when she abused Angel for not being able to resurrect the Slayer. He didn't say she shouldn't do it, he said she wasn't able to because Giles has unique circumstances for why it's more possible. I think she was right on point when she accused Angel of wanting to resurrect Giles more for his own benefit and I get why she's so enraged and just hears excuses coming out of Angel's mouth, but she placed Angel in an impossible situation there.
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                              I actually found Nadira to be plain unreasonable when she abused Angel for not being able to resurrect the Slayer. He didn't say she shouldn't do it, he said she wasn't able to because Giles has unique circumstances for why it's more possible. I think she was right on point when she accused Angel of wanting to resurrect Giles more for his own benefit and I get why she's so enraged and just hears excuses coming out of Angel's mouth, but she placed Angel in an impossible situation there.
                              Partially agree. I think the reason I'm sympathetic to Nadira is that there's frankly no reason Nadira *should* believe Angel at this juncture -- I mean, Angel was telling the truth, but he could just as well be lying to cover his butt and keep on his current course. More to the point, Angel never considered resurrecting anybody besides Giles; certainly their current resurrecting plans couldn't be modified to bring the slayer back instead, but if resurrecting is such a great idea, why focus 100% on Giles and not one of the thousands of Wiccans or even witchy slayers who might be brought back? You mention that you agree with Nadira there, but I just want to emphasize why I think those criticisms are very close to each other.

                              Angel is certain that there's nothing to be done about the slayer, but everyone besides Angel would have been certain that there was no way to bring back Giles before Angel obsessively put his mind to it. Angel speaks with an air of authority, but I don't think he's an authority on resurrections -- he's an authority on how to resurrect Rupert Giles, and his self-presentation of expertise to Nadira is something she's right to criticize, IMHO. I don't have the issue on me though so I can't quite remember the exact things she said and how much Nadira was blaming Angel for general dickishness regarding resurrections and how much it's for specifically failing to save her slayer right there.

                              That said, Nadira is not 100% right -- Angel can't just resurrect that slayer, no matter how great a person she is. And that is probably good writing -- the fact that the person who raises great points is still partially wrong is a staple of the 'verse.

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                              • #30
                                How is Nadira supposed to know who can get resurrected and who can't when even the writers don't seem to have a clue and change the rules on that all the time? I mean, if Giles's "unique circumstances" sound like nonsense to many readers, they must sound like even more of an excuse to Nadira.
                                Last edited by Jack Shaftoe; 01-12-12, 03:42 AM.
                                Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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