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Buffy Leading the Watchers Council

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  • Buffy Leading the Watchers Council

    At the end of Season 12 we saw Giles and Andrew planning on resurrecting the Watchers Council. I wish Buffy had suggested she lead the council or at least have a vote on the board. It makes me angry that Giles thought he and Andrew could run it, without Buffy. They don't even appear to include Willow or Faith. Perhaps the others will help, but it felt like they were being pushed out and Giles was taking over total control.

    Does anyone think Giles should run the Council and Buffy have no say in the running? Or should Buffy be in control, or should they share control? Should Willow and the other scoobies have a say in the running of the organisation? Should Angel and Spike?

  • #2
    In my stories, it's always ISWC - international slayers and watcher's council. ote that 'Slayers' always come first. In some of the stories, the slayers had to fight for the real power, but I believe it's their right. Seems like after the debacle that was the old council, they'd learn something. There would surely be some older potentials (maybe turned slayers by the spell) with the right skillset? I cannot believe that none of the potentials who were trained and then aged out of the 'slayer age' might not have ended up as watchers or even hunters.

    I don't support any watcher only council, pretty much ever, but then I have never had any use for a bunch of insular old (mostly) men running the lives of vulnerable women who were viewed as 'tools' in their battle.

    How did the watcher's council function after Sunnydale? I haven't read the comics that closely. I always assumed there was some kind of council.

    And yes, Buffy as the head of the council if she wants it? Absolutely. She has earned the right to have a say (even the final say against the watchers) and to stand up for her sister slayers.

    And Buffy should have the major say in who ends up on the board/employed by/running the new council.
    Last edited by DeepBlueJoy; 30-01-20, 02:33 PM.

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    • #3
      I don't know, I think Buffy's choice at the end was to work towards spending some of her time doing some ground work interaction between the slayers (represented by her/Faith) and the police. It was an integration of different interests and areas of her life. For her to be in charge of the council would make it her main focus and I'm comfortable with the idea she wasn't choosing to do that at that point, but would get involved as and when she wanted to. I think her and Faith had basically gotten to the point of almost floating consultants that could suit themselves how/where they interacted. Spike has created a similar working dynamic with the police. I felt there was a freedom and lack of constraint there.

      But I do think it is important that slayers are equally represented as Blue says. I think Giles and Andrew were more starting the administrative/structure of a council and it could/would be adapted as wanted and needed. I never got the feeling of them being exclusive or patriarchal in the way they were looking at it at the end of S12, just that they were the only ones at that moment in time that were looking at that aspect. I haven't reread the season yet though so I might be looking back on it with assumptions clouding my interpretation.

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      • #4
        You know my feelings on S12. It either sucks because it's crap or...it's sucks because it's being too clever. I can't read it as a positive ending. Buffy and Faith join the Law (while Xander curb crawls them making sexist remarks about Charlie's Angels). Giles and Andrew - the patriarch and the capitalist - are in sole charge of the WC AND communications. Dawn's left holding the baby (in Xander's house). At the very least, Buffy and Giles should have shared control. I hate S12 with a vengeance. I can't even bring myself to re-read it. As far as I'm concerned, it's a patriarchal utopia. Even Angel's doing what his "God-King" tells him to do.

        In the light of 1-11 It makes no sense to me. She might as well have joined the Police when she left school at the end of S3. At least Giles does us the decency of taking his glasses off...which he does when he doesn't want to see the truth.
        Last edited by TriBel; 30-01-20, 06:30 PM.
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        • GoSpuffy
          GoSpuffy commented
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          Preach it sister!

      • #5
        How did the watcher's council function after Sunnydale? I haven't read the comics that closely. I always assumed there was some kind of council.
        In Season 8 Buffy was running a kind-of Slayer army in Scotland, where she was in charge. Giles had left to become Faith's watcher as he and Buffy hadn't really made up after the end of S7. But there was on Council until S12, though there had been a Magic Council that Buffy was going to lead at the end of S10, but for S11 Joss went in a totally different direction as he wanted to air his views on Trump and used Buffy to do it.

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        • #6
          Originally posted by TriBel View Post
          You know my feelings on S12. It either sucks because it's crap or...it's sucks because it's being too clever. I can't read it as a positive ending. Buffy and Faith join the Law (while Xander curb crawls them making sexist remarks about Charlie's Angels). Giles and Andrew - the patriarch and the capitalist - are in sole charge of the WC AND communications. Dawn's left holding the baby (in Xander's house). At the very least, Buffy and Giles should have shared control. I hate S12 with a vengeance. I can't even bring myself to re-read it. As far as I'm concerned, it's a patriarchal utopia. Even Angel's doing what his "God-King" tells him to do.

          In the light of 1-11 It makes no sense to me. She might as well have joined the Police when she left school at the end of S3. At least Giles does us the decency of taking his glasses off...which he does when he doesn't want to see the truth.
          It annoys me that Buffy simply seems to accept that Giles and Andrew will go off and run the Council, and she says nothing. Why isn't she angry, or suggest herself as joint-leader? It feels like she thinks that it really is their role to be in charge.

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          • TriBel
            TriBel commented
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            I think it's patriarchal hegemony. As things stand it all feels "natural". It's "normal" for the older man to be in charge; just as it's "normal" for the man with the connections and the potential to make lots of money to be in charge. Depressing...

        • #7
          Originally posted by Priceless View Post

          It annoys me that Buffy simply seems to accept that Giles and Andrew will go off and run the Council, and she says nothing. Why isn't she angry, or suggest herself as joint-leader? It feels like she thinks that it really is their role to be in charge.
          I mean...why Andrew? I could draw parallels between him and Harmony - in the sense that the least likely to succeed do succeed but, I don't consider Harmony's success in life as a positive sign so why should I consider Andrew's to be otherwise? And what's the "evil" that's invited into the house? In S11 there where no "paternal" figures. Giles was still young and the (vice-president?) "father of the Nation" was discredited (wasn't he?). In 12 Giles is older ("distinguished") and he declares himself a father figure to Buffy; Xander's a real father ( he's never once seen holding the baby and, IMO, for as much as he loves Dawn, he also patronizes her. Patronize comes from the Latin patronus "protector, master," related to pater "father." Xander's wearing a pit-master apron in the last scene. Buffy and Faith have joined "the Law", which always codes as masculine and, for certain schools of thought, is "the symbolic father". Where are the mothers, Dawn and "Joyce"? Locked together and stuck in the bloody house! Not to mention Xander's mother. Symbolically, this has massive implications. Yes...she should be angry. TBH, I think the evil is patriarchy in the guise of love (the loving father can be just as oppressive as the stern one). If Whedon et.al don't want me to construe it as negative they shouldn't have made it so damned easy to deconstruct and read against the grain. Sigh...I could go on...I hate S12...I really hate it! It's one of the most depressing things I've ever read. I haven't even unwrapped the TPB. I should probably have a ritual burning of it.

          I should say...this isn't a tirade against actual real life dads (I quite liked my own) - it's a rant about the symbolic function of "father" in the psycho-social. Whedon's read enough Joseph Campbell to be aware of it. The only one who fills me with any hope is Spike...and I'm not sure why. Rant over.

          Hey - after tomorrow when we leave the EU is the time on this site gonna show GMT? Oh look - this is my 1999 post!
          Last edited by TriBel; 30-01-20, 11:05 PM.
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          • Stoney
            Stoney commented
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            Your settings probably are to GMT, mine are and it is still an hour out. It's one of the noted glitches.

        • #8
          Buffy was the leader of an organization that essentially took over after watchers demise and she sucked. Her slayer army was even worse than the council - with such a track record I don't see why she should have any say in the new council. Also, I don't see why such council would even exist in the first place? The occult is out in the open. All of the knowledge is on the internet. What do Giles and Andrew even plan to do? The whole idea of watchers sounds like an unnecessary relic. As to Willow - she's busy with her own organization.

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          • #9
            I hate Buffy as a police officer. I would have accepted fire fighter much more readily. And I would have preferred running the council over either. Her slayer army failed but she had no resources or support and the Gov't was after her, hardly the same situation as taking over the council. And if Andrew can do it, well.....Andrew really adds insult to injury.
            ā€œ

            I like who I am when Iā€™m with him. I like who we are together.ā€

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            • Priceless
              Priceless commented
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              Joomla! (My new word for hooray/congratulations/I fully support everything you've said etc.

          • #10
            I do see why people don't like it but it was running alongside wider messages about asserting yourself and the option of change in a way that makes me see it differently. For me it's about her doing what she wants to do, and currently she wants to impact her interaction with the police (that she has been working with as a consultant on and off already), to integrate that more to her slayer role somewhat and gain a sense of a career alongside slaying. But in the creation of a new arm within the police after training, and generally in life, that you can always change the future if you want to. I don't feel she is being restricted by anything or missing out on anything that she would want to be doing instead.

            Joomla! (My new word for hooray/congratulations/I fully support everything you've said etc.
            Embrace the joomla!

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            • #11
              I agree with a thing of evil. Buffy kinda had her chance and did not really cover herself with glory. But I don't think she is more entitled to lead the council than any other slayer, just because she has more years of slayer duties under her belt than any other slayer, including Faith.

              I actually think there should be a slayers council and slayers should run it. There can be watchers but they should be employees of the slayers' council. It doesn't necessarily has to have a single person as a leader. There could be a committee instead. In any case, the leader or committee should be elected by the slayers.

              This would not interfere with Buffy's choice to join the police at all. She could do that and still be a slayer and of course part of the slayers' council without having to run it.

              The idea that Giles and Andrew are going to lead a watchers council that will be watching slayers (what else would they do) and appointing themselves as leader and successor without even asking a single slayer is ridiculous and subverts everything BtVS stands for.

              flow
              Last edited by flow; 01-02-20, 03:48 PM.
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