Announcement

Collapse
1 of 2 < >

No HTML

HTML is turned off for security reasons.

Please do not use html in your posts or messages. If you are copy and pasting something from another website and you are having problems with it showing, then it may have html in it. This could be in the form of a website link or a viewable image or an emoji or a special chacter. I am not sure this is the reason we have errors posting.

Some html code can be simply swapped with our Bulletin Board code by changing the greater than/ less than signs with bracket signs. Other BB code needs to done using the buttons in the advanced post editor.
2 of 2 < >

Home Page

The home page address has changed to: http://buffyforums.net/forums/
Please update your bookmark. Otherwise, the home page does not show you are logged in and/or will not let you type into the log in box in the top right. The link at Buffyforums.net to the forums has not yet been updated. So you will experience the error when you enter the forum through that link.
See more
See less

Worst trash? (Updated poll)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Both were equally bad.

    But I choose space sex.
    Last edited by Summers_Anne; 12-09-19, 03:25 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      I could accept fire fighter over police officer, however there are still numerous other problems with S12 including but not limited to:
      Xander's regression to high school mentality
      Fred/Illyria sharing a body and both dating Angel
      Fred being stuck in a hell dimension inside Illyria
      Dawn having a baby before graduating
      Calling the baby Joyce panders to every baby fic ever written
      Buffy and Spikes off screen break up
      The seemingly necessary need to have Buffy single in order to be strong and successful
      The wimpy sellout story telling that was more focused on pleasing fans than on moving the story forward to a logical conclusion.

      And re aging Giles with no details? Ugh
      Last edited by GoSpuffy; 12-09-19, 03:25 AM.


      I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

      Comment


      • #18
        I've no problem with saying I have personal issues with S12 and Giles re-aging, the break up off screen (that they instantly undermine with Buffy realising it wasn't them but her to start the process of ensuring Spuffy has an equal potential too by the end) and the very outdated idea that being single is best to be strong and independent, are definitely the main ones. But I don't have any problem with Xander and Dawn. Dawn having a baby before graduating is just something that some people choose/experience and Xander struggling with the start of his family and with what is expected of him when he has had such ropey examples of positive male role models is not much of a shock to me. The issue with Fred I can see has a positive aspect too. Firstly it isn't something that is done to her but that she agrees to from what I remember. Also, although the idea of a shared body when Illyria/Angel are having a relationship seems awkward and strange to me, I accept that I don't have experience and scope in all areas of life. Fifty years ago the idea of two men or two women marrying and declaring themselves a couple openly was not hear of, heck it was a crime. Not even that long ago in fact and in some countries it still is the case I believe. So, whilst the idea of the relationship that Illyria and Angel have where Illyria is offering to share Angel with Buffy and Fred is a part of it all in the background too seems unmanageable to me, I know there are many points of view in this world. These overall uncertainties work well I think with the notion of forming the future by our own choices and actions. S12 wasn't anywhere near the strongest and certainly was greatly affected by wanting to leave potential/scope to all fans at the end, but it comes with a very in keeping overall message and I understand their wish to not isolate any fan/shipper group from the finale when everyone still listening/reading has shown interest and commitment to the verse.

        The monkey space frak feet though, there's no reason/excuse for that.

        Comment


        • #19
          I don't follow the comics and haven't read S12, but I can't believe the grand end to her character arc was becoming a cop.

          Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
          BUFFY SHOULD'VE BEEN A FIREFIGHTER!!!
          I mean, Buffy literally said she was going to be the fireman when the floods roll back. What a wasted opportunity to pay homage to one of her best moments in the series.

          Comment


          • #20
            Angel = Twilight - I get. Illyria/Fred/Angel makes perfect sense to me. But Buffy = Police - I don't.

            Police = The Law and because we live in a patriarchal society the concept of "The Law" is always coded as male. S12 makes this quite clear with Xander's reference to Charlie's Angels. Buffy (and Faith) are, ostensibly, the law but Charlie and Bosley (read Giles and Andrew) are the ones in freakin' charge.

            What a wasted opportunity to pay homage to one of her best moments in the series.
            Thanks Andrew!


            "I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.
            There's trees in the desert since you moved out.
            And I don't sleep on a bed of bones.
            Now give me back my friends.

            No friends! Just the kill.
            We are alone! That's it.
            I'm waking up.
            It's over.
            We don't do this any more."


            It's a "dream" ending...for the f****** men! It's a dream for Andrew, Giles and Xander...for the women it's a freakin' nightmare...they're all trapped (like Fred/Illyria)! They haven't "woke up". Patriarchy is not "over" and the intimation is it will carry on perpetuating itself.

            FFS! I don't even like Buffy that much but I could cry for her. S12's an abomination. I think it IS paying homage to Restless (the reason Spuffy broke up was because she was "restless") but not in a good way.


            Oh BTW, BtVS transcripts are available here (but they're not as good as Buffy World). https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #21
              Buffy and Faith were going through training and then heading a supernatural division though weren't they? Something like that. To me it seemed like Buffy was looking to combine her night/day job in a more cohesive way than she has before and she was very much going to be challenging things, stirring them up and being in charge of her overall path/choices. Perhaps I'm too casual about the pervasiveness of patriarchal dominance, but I just don't see Buffy and Faith being led where they don't want to go any more than they ever were. But they were prepared to use the system to get something from it. If it didn't give them an integration they liked they'd just stop doing it and try something else. That was part of the point of the message at the end and why they were giving it a go I think. Nothing is set.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                Buffy and Faith were going through training and then heading a supernatural division though weren't they? Something like that. To me it seemed like Buffy was looking to combine her night/day job in a more cohesive way than she has before and she was very much going to be challenging things, stirring them up and being in charge of her overall path/choices. Perhaps I'm too casual about the pervasiveness of patriarchal dominance, but I just don't see Buffy and Faith being led where they don't want to go any more than they ever were. But they were prepared to use the system to get something from it. If it didn't give them an integration they liked they'd just stop doing it and try something else. That was part of the point of the message at the end and why they were giving it a go I think. Nothing is set.
                I think you could be right. However, patriarchal hegemony doesn't work by "leading" people down a path. It works by making people think they've chosen the path. There are too many "asides" for me to be comfortable with a positive reading. The Charlie's Angels reference is just one. Xander's oppressive behaviour (which manifests itself as love); Gage's name on the wall as "cage"; Giles removing his glasses (what is it he doesn't want to see?); Joyce/the mother "trapped in the nursery"(that's a theoretical reference about desire). Angel's concern for Fred (the women) being secondary to his concern for Illyria (the God/King). The function of The Garden (an Idyll) in American culture. Andrew's van; the sign on the door. I could go on...

                What happens in the future is immaterial...the text ends with men in charge...in charge of the showing and the telling. I hate that Andrew and Giles are "playing a (language) game" and in charge of the rules. That fills me with horror...that's why I think it's an abomination. There's a quote to the effect of "when you get caught up in someone else's dream, you're dead" (it's a variant on "one person's dream is another person's nightmare"). I have it in my head the quote's from Mussolini but I can't find it. Nevertheless, it's how I feel about S12. Xander's "Pit Master" apron doesn't help displace the idea that this is Hell.

                With regard to the system - it's all well and dandy trying to change that from within but it's not The Law (as in written law) that's a problem - it's the unwritten law. So, she/Faith could rise to the top of the LAPD but can she change its "canteen culture", people's basic suppositions/unconscious beliefs? I'm not so sure...I think that's why we have the asides.

                Don't get me wrong...I think there's a possibility S12 is very clever in delivering two messages for the price of one. That said, I'd have been far happier if she'd been a fire-officer. The message would have been clearer.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #23
                  I think I see your point and I suppose it possibly just comes down to my feeling that they don't have to follow anything specific and it is more about using what is there than being led or restricted by it. I'm not really invested in or knowledgeable about social theories so that aspect doesn't have much impact my enjoyment. I don't really see Buffy doing anything different to what she did in the camp perhaps when she put on the slayer uniform to be better able to influence/protect those in the camp and then broke free of it when she needed/wanted to. I do think you can see issues in that when considering that she had to give up her power to be freed. But then she did take it back again of course. There is always that sense that she can't be shaped and contained by others for me which I see as a strong aspect of Buffy's story, so I struggle to see her as detrimentally dominated or conforming regardless of what surrounds her. She will do what she wants, Giles and Andrew don't have power over her but the ability to offer her resources/strengths to benefit her, just like the police role, and that's just like the position she took with the Watchers' Council in S5 I think. I'd have to reread it but I was left with an overall sense that this suited her desire to combine day and night and in that way works for her overall determination of what life, what 'normal', she can have. But with this caveat that she doesn't have to be bound to her choice. I think the downside if it had been a fire officer role rather than a police officer, is that it would have looked like they were tying up her story to a conclusion and really it was about there not being an end. In the same way that breaking up the relationship she was in was then coupled with spending a great deal of time establishing that it might reignite. The possibilities and potentials are meant to feel open and not closed in any way.

                  I suppose I'm just disposed to look for the ways it can work positively for me so that I can like it as much as I am able because that's what we got.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Buffy and Faith were going through training and then heading a supernatural division though weren't they?
                    It doesn't matter.

                    BtVS is, at its very core, an anti-authoritarian work (interestingly enough, that holds up even when Buffy herself happens to be an authority) and Buffy's an anti-authoritarian character. The villains Buffy faces represent authority - Master, Glory, Mayor, watchers, adults, government, D'Hoffryn and so on - point is, in Buffyverse authority is evil. So when Buffy joins the police she becomes a villain in her own story. It's, like, Buffy used to smash the system with hammer and sickle, now she lives in some hellish suburbia with no sidewalks two hours commute away from San Francisco, harasses homeless people all day and maybe once a month or whatever gets to beat the crap out of some demon, that's when she feels like she's actually still alive. It's completely ass-backwards.

                    I mean, Buffy literally said she was going to be the fireman when the floods roll back. What a wasted opportunity to pay homage to one of her best moments in the series.
                    And there were floods! San Francisco was literally flooded in season 11 and they just ignored it, it's so infuriating.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      And there were floods! San Francisco was literally flooded in season 11 and they just ignored it, it's so infuriating.
                      Oh duh! I you!
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
                        It doesn't matter.

                        BtVS is, at its very core, an anti-authoritarian work (interestingly enough, that holds up even when Buffy herself happens to be an authority) and Buffy's an anti-authoritarian character. The villains Buffy faces represent authority - Master, Glory, Mayor, watchers, adults, government, D'Hoffryn and so on - point is, in Buffyverse authority is evil. So when Buffy joins the police she becomes a villain in her own story. It's, like, Buffy used to smash the system with hammer and sickle, now she lives in some hellish suburbia with no sidewalks two hours commute away from San Francisco, harasses homeless people all day and maybe once a month or whatever gets to beat the crap out of some demon, that's when she feels like she's actually still alive. It's completely ass-backwards.
                        I do get your point. We can also add the Watcher's Council, the Initiative and Sunnydale High under Snyder to that list.

                        Still, I am not sure I would go quite as far as you. I think BtVS is a deeply imperfect world where you cannot rely on authority. Everyone must trust themselves to be able to separate right from wrong. But I don't think it is as clear cut as every institution being intrinsically evil. Willow and Giles are both pro school and pro education. Buffy also seems to be a fairly good student. Xander blossoms at his construction job, despite the somewhat toxic masculine culture.

                        We learn in S2 that Buffy could be suited for the job as a police officer. I don't necisserily see her joining the force as surrendering. It could also be seen as growing up. She's integrating into the adult world.

                        Of course, being in the police isn't going to be easy. The police is far from perfect. But I imagine Buffy and Faith working towards making it as good as it can be.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                          But they were prepared to use the system to get something from it. If it didn't give them an integration they liked they'd just stop doing it and try something else. That was part of the point of the message at the end and why they were giving it a go I think. Nothing is set.
                          Doesn't this sound like AtS S5? Been there done that, got the t-shirt. I think the lesson was you can't fight the patriarchy from the belly of the beast, you're supposed to face it head on.

                          What I most hate about S12 is the lazy unoriginal story telling. I wish there was something to have is all debating it's merits. Something brave and original like Buffy, Angel and Spike ending as a thruple. That would be worth commenting on and I'm sure there would be a range of opinions.

                          My personal opinion is Joss sold Buffy but retained Fray. That way if the boom comics or reboot don't work out he can play in that game where there is now an unexplored future for him to explore. Maybe even with Spike although I don't know what this flying car scene references. It explains why he gave us such a crappy ending, he is done with Buffy and now focusing on Fray. Sadly for me I'm not a Fray fan.
                          Last edited by GoSpuffy; 12-09-19, 05:56 PM.


                          I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            WfB

                            We learn in S2 that Buffy could be suited for the job as a police officer.
                            Yes but she doesn't choose - she's chosen. She's 17 and she's chosen because she has potential. When does she get to make a choice of her own?

                            Oh BTW, it's the symbolism I'm objecting to - not REAL Police.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by GoSpuffy View Post
                              Doesn't this sound like AtS S5? Been there done that, got the t-shirt. I think the lesson was you can't fight the patriarchy from the belly of the beast, you're supposed to face it head on.
                              No not at all because the intention and motivation are entirely different. The reason for joining AtS 5 was false, that wasn't the real reason at all but the deal over Connor, and they were corrupted by the power. Buffy integrating both aspects of her life more comprehensively than she has chosen before and taking a role in forming a new branch in the local enforcement that spans the area of her expertise is about her power, not theirs. To me anyway. And, as I say, if it doesn't work then she wouldn't keep doing it and hasn't sold herself to take the opportunity and find out. There isn't anything here to me that dominates her and the overall message was certainly for me a positive one of being able to take opportunities and change what's ahead.

                              I'm really glad they didn't do something random that was an extreme shift just to be 'original' because it would have just come across to me as going for drama at the end rather than having a sense of continuity to where the characters had gotten to that the character stories as they have been established and playing out for twelve seasons worked with. Leaving so much open gives anyone the room to continue the stories however they feel it should have gone and in many ways that is a gift to all fans that have followed these characters and kept reading for so long.

                              My personal opinion is Joss sold Buffy but retained Fray. That way if the boom comics or reboot don't work out he can play in that game where there is now an unexplored future for him to explore. Maybe even with Spike although I don't know what this flying car scene references. It explains why he gave us such a crappy ending, he is done with Buffy and now focusing on Fray. Sadly for me I'm not a Fray fan.
                              Fray does seem to have been kept separate, presumably because it originated post the show. I don't know of IP works and why it isn't scooped into the whole when it is an established part of the same verse. I don't think they would be able to use Spike or the others freely anymore though.
                              Last edited by Stoney; 12-09-19, 09:08 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I'm gonna with the Robo Abortion storyline. It's worse than the others because those others were simply bad storylines. In this subject he (Joss) decided to tackle a sensitive subject head and you know what they were actually handling the subject really well but then... she's not pregnant but a Robot who'd been swapped with Buffy by Andrew who'd drugged and kidnapped her. WHAT THE F#@#
                                I'm guessing Joss got cold feet, maybe nervous about his sales I dunno, but to pull bait and switch on a storyline THAT HAD BEEN HANDLED WELL UP TILL THEN was just unforgivable

                                - - - Updated - - -

                                Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                                No not at all because the intention and motivation are entirely different. The reason for joining AtS 5 was false, that wasn't the real reason at all but the deal over Connor, and they were corrupted by the power. Buffy integrating both aspects of her life more comprehensively than she has chosen before and taking a role in forming a new branch in the local enforcement that spans the area of her expertise is about her power, not theirs. To me anyway. And, as I say, if it doesn't work then she wouldn't keep doing it and hasn't sold herself to take the opportunity and find out. There isn't anything here to me that dominates her and the overall message was certainly for me a positive one of being able to take opportunities and change what's ahead.

                                I'm really glad they didn't do something random that was an extreme shift just to be 'original' because it would have just come across to me as going for drama at the end rather than having a sense of continuity to where the characters had gotten to that the character stories as they have been established and playing out for twelve seasons worked with. Leaving so much open gives anyone the room to continue the stories however they feel it should have gone and in many ways that is a gift to all fans that have followed these characters and kept reading for so long.



                                Fray does seem to have been kept separate, presumably because it originated post the show. I don't know of IP works and why it isn't scooped into the whole when it is an established part of the same verse. I don't think they would be able to use Spike or the others freely anymore though.
                                You say that but the end of S8 is pretty much the same message as NFA even with the same dialogue. While S12 was pretty much doing the same as Chosen albiet without the cookie dough analogy thank god.
                                Last edited by BtVS fan; 12-09-19, 10:01 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X