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Overall power rankings of beings, good and bad, including the PTB, WR&H, etc.

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  • #46
    I know what you mean King. I miss the days where the villian was someone who could be fought and killed, their goal of ending the world took a backseat to the themes and development of the scoobies -whose relationships and feelings would evolve and change in relatable ways.

    I miss the days when not *every single season* was about redefining the rules of magic. I miss when magic itself was something that could be utilized, but it was still mysterious and it wasn't nearly as in-your-face as it is these days because the series was primarily about *killing vampires* and the writers weren't trying to make it Harry Potter or Star Wars. I miss when it was generally understood that demons were evil with a few very rare exceptions, rather than just making them Star Trek aliens because that's more "adult".

    I hear you about powerlevels King. Remember when the vampires of LA were scared of Gunn? And how Angel trusted Gunn to be the one to take him down if he went evil again? Remember how Wood, Riley and Holtz could be effective vampire hunters with enough training? As you said, vampires were stronger and more agile than a regular human, but not insurmountably so. Xander or Giles could get the drop on a regular vamp and stand a decent chance.


    • #47
      Vampire in Rug

      * Other than only wanting to complain about my list, not making your own list doesn’t make much sense for the thread.

      * I never said the rankings only regard who would beat whom in one-on-one fights.

      * The list doesn’t regard ‘real world examples’—the list regards the Buffyverse.

      * We saw Angel training Cordelia. We saw Buffy training Dawn.

      * Lumping Billy the Vampire Slayer in with Winifred Burkle, Dawn Summers, and Andrew Wells is beyond laughable.

      * Unless you acknowledge that any sense of Buffyverse reality would have both Xander and Dawn killed in Season 10, I cannot take your Xander arguments seriously.

      * I wouldn’t rank Andrew Wells at Dark Willow or above level and I wouldn’t rank Andrew at Season 10 Giles level.

      * It almost seems you’re trying to compare BtVS S7 Xander and BtVS S7 Andrew.

      * Regarding the thread topic, I’ve always been consistent. You seem to be trying to debate whether real-life Nicholas Brendan could beat up the following: real-life Tom Lenk, real-life Michelle Trachtenberg, and real-life Amy Acker.

      * I consider Spike allowed Caleb to poke out Xander’s eye (“Dirty Girls” (B 7.18)). If Dawn were in such immediate danger, Spike would have knocked Caleb away before Dawn’s eye was poked out. Spike in BtVS S9 went back to Sunnydale to save Dawn. Were Xander in such danger, Spike would more likely have stayed in London longer.

      Dawn is powerful because she's important to Spike? That's the metric that you're going to use to measure "power levels", really?
      Saying “the” is clearly a straw man argument (SMA). Dawn’s also more important to Buffy than Xander is.

      Well shouldn't Angel top the list of powerful beings because he's important to The Powers That Be, W&H, Jasmine, Twilight and plenty of other powerful characters?
      Angel is used by “The Powers That Be, W&H, Jasmine, Twilight and plenty of other powerful characters”. That makes Angel a puppet, not a more powerful character than those listed above him.

      Stop telling other people to rewatch episodes, it's rude as ****.
      No, what is rude is debating something when one doesn’t even remember—or remember correctly—the things one is debating.

      Why would you place Billy above Faith and Kendra? You don't strike me as an SJW, so why the need to boost him so high? Even in season 9 he didn't do anything more impressive than dust a handful of zompires.
      I was one who most criticized Billy the Vampire Slayer and I remember being one of the—perhaps the first one—on BF and SA to argue that it made around zero sense that Billy went from being picked on by high school jocks and being not able to even punch a speed bag well to being able to better kill zompires than actual Slayers could. Nevertheless, I had to place Season 10 Faith so high because of her fighting ability and I would apply the same logic to Billy.

      Season 10 and 11 are canon, unless you want to declare yourself the arbiter of canon?
      I remember Joss Whedon’s saying he hasn’t been much involved with the comics since Season 8. In my opinion, it seems Joss has dismissed Season 10 and 11 and is simply writing the Giles miniseries as a social commentary on the American public high school system.

      Joss wanted to do a Buffy abortion storyline. Joss—in my opinion—wanted Buffy and Spike together and be ‘endgame’. That’s all the info needed for post-Season 8.

      * Angel took actual damage in “In the Dark” (A 1.03) from Spike. There is around zero indication that Spike was hurt from that fight.

      * I don’t remember yours ever addressing that Fred is rarely if ever considered a liability for the Fang Gang during their patrols and fighting demons and whatnot.

      Seriously, who cares why you edit a post? Is it really necessary to add the reason every single time?
      At least one person cares why I edit my posts and that is all that matters.


      * The vampires of Los Angeles were scared of Gunn and gang, not Gunn the single person.

      There’s around zero indication Angel actually considered Gunn would beat him in a fight.

      * I didn’t list “average vampire”, so I wonder if you consider Drusilla, Spike, and Angel are ‘average vampires’.


      [ MikeB ’s] definition of power will always trend very closely to that which proves that Spike is the greatest fighter and that all the ladies want to be with him and the men want to be him and/or with him, and conversely that Xander is the worst at everything
      Maybe that is at least partly hyperbole?

      I hope that you wouldn’t rank Xander above Spike in such a ranking of Overall power rankings of beings, good and bad, including the PTB, WR&H, etc.

      Anyway, watch “School Hard” (B 2.03) again. Buffy had already killed Lothos and the Master yet Giles reasons it’d be a good idea for the Scoobies to leave town. Giles is always concerned about Spike’s ability to kill Buffy.

      I wonder if you consider the Xander is more of a “ladies man” than Spike is? Because canon states otherwise.

      BtVS implies that Xander was at least partly sexually attracted to both Riley Finn and Spike.

      This thread makes me miss the Buffyverse in it's early and middle days when it was still understood that vampires were A) more powerful and agile than humans, but not insurmountably so, and B) that vampires were formidable demons unto themselves and not paper tigers compared to the (insert nonsense word) demons, and that truly phenomenal powers were rare and frightening (Illyria, Glory, the Beast, Caleb). When the 'scale', such as it is, was much more compressed.
      Um, no. It seems you are misremembering the Buffyverse.

      The whole point of the Slayer is that she is the only human in the world who can beat back the forces of darkness and is the only human who can regularly kill vampires.

      Buffy killed Lothos and killed the Master. Yet Spike is introduced as more dangerous to Buffy than Lothos and the Master were and Spike beats Buffy in their first fight.

      Kendra stalemated a Buffy whose knee was at least slightly hurt. Drusilla in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22) very easily kills Kendra.

      “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (B 1.01) introduces that there are other things than vampires that Buffy must kill.

      The Mayor in BtVS S3 became unkillable and then a “real demon” and the series went on from there to introduce Adam, Glory, Dark Willow, the First Evil, etc.

      “The Zeppo” (B 3.13) happened for a reason; Xander was often considered a liability. Spike in “Doomed” (B 4.11) could tell Willow and Xander that both are probably liabilities for Buffy when Buffy patrols and that Buffy would probably do better without them.

      Willow became a witch. It’s Xander’s own fault that he didn’t train with Riley or anyone.

      For perspective, I am thinking of back in the 90s when both DC and Image Comics did their own version of Batman/Spawn crossovers. The Image one was written by Frank Miller and pencilled by Todd McFarlane (I know, right?), and I remember vividly how Batman would land blows that would affect Spawn, and stun him, but they weren't having nearly the effect they'd have on humans and they were actually hurting Batman to land him. But it wasn't an insurmountable obstacle, he was able to hold his own against Spawn despite being a Badass Normal only.
      The idea of Batman is one of the stupidest things in comics and the superhero genre in general. There is no actual need for Batman. And Batman spawns the whole “Batman with prep” is the most powerful being in all of comics ‘meme’ that many attest to.

      Nevertheless, Batman is “peek human”, is super intelligent, and has tons of weapons, vehicles, and gadgets. Listed as 8-C. Listed as 9-A. and and all 8-C. So, pre-Flashpoint, Batman is comparable to Buffy, Faith, and Spike. Post-Flashpoint, he is not comparable. Angel is listed as 9-B.

      Anyway, someone like Riley Finn, Robin Wood, Charles Gunn are not “peek human” and Xander Harris might not even be “athlete” level.

      * I get the feeling that you are trying to label Drusilla, Spike, and Angel as ‘normal’ or ‘regular’ vampires that someone like Charles Gunn or Xander Harris could have any chance of defeating.

      EDIT: Sam Winchester in 'normal form' is listed as 9-C. Dean Winchester in 'normal form' is listed as 9-C.

      Where would you put Xander Harris? He'd be either 10-B or 10-A at-most.

      Robin Wood could possibly be 9-C: Street level and I'd probably only put 'Enhanced Riley' as 9-C and regular Riley as 10-A: Athlete level.
      Last edited by MikeB; 15-11-17, 09:05 PM. Reason: included Sam and Dean Winchester and Robin and Riley stuff


      • #48
        I'm still not sure how to exactly rank the non-supernatural humans. I'll have to consider this more/further before including the below in the Power Ranking List.

        - Andrew Wells

        He can summon demons, he is essentially Watcher #2 (or #1 after Giles dies), and he commands Slayers.

        - Warren Meers

        Even without the 'balls', he can make robots that are better than most Slayers.

        - Enhanced Riley

        Did relatively well against "The Yoko Factor" (B 4.20) Angel. And Enhanced Riley surprised Buffy in "Out of My Mind" (B 5.04). Obviously, he wasn't long-lasting given probably less than 2 years being 'Enhanced' and he was essentially dying.

        - Robin Wood

        I place him above Charles Gunn because Robin Wood is properly trained and he was fighting and killing vampires on his own hoping to kill the one that killed his Slayer mother. Gunn mostly killed vampires as part of a group, his 'Gunn gang', and then the Fang Gang.

        - Riley Finn

        He uses advanced military weaponry, likely has diplomatic immunity; his connection to The United States Military and the United States Government makes him very powerful. Arguably, he could be placed above Enhanced Riley.

        - Wesley Wyndam-Pryce

        Is more ruthless than Gunn is. Is a better and more capable leader than Gunn. Has magical abilities.

        - Charles Gunn

        He only has 'street smarts' fighting skills. It seems he was never properly trained.

        If one doesn't consider Jasmine is responsible for her fighting skills, Winifred Burkle should be placed above Xander and Dawn. I consider Jasmine is responsible for Fred's pre-AtS S5 fighting skills, so...

        - Rupert Giles

        Somehow is much more competent as Ripper than not; so, Giles essentially limits himself to not 'be evil'. He has some magical abilities.

        - Alexander Lavelle Harris

        - Winifred Burkle

        - Dawn Summers

        She clearly shows some fighting skills in BtVS S7, but she doesn't have the experience Xander and Fred do.


        • #49
          All caught up.

          All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

          I updated the list ( (post #1) to include Impata from "Inca Mummy Girl" (B 2.04).

          * I'm still not sure how to rank the non-magical humans.

          Robin Wood and Riley Finn both have formal training. Robin probably has better training than Riley outside of maybe firearm and explosives training. I'd put Robin over non-Enhanced Riley Finn.

          I'm not sure if Charles Gunn can be placed above Robin Wood. Gunn was one of the Fang Gang like Wesley, Cordy, and Fred. Buffy in BtVS S7 treats Robin as a quasi-Slayer--given she has him patrol with Spike and her.

          * Winifred Burkle has more 'in the field' experience than Dawn Summers. But Dawn's the Key and the Scoobies--through Buffy--are willing the risk the entire world for Dawn ("The Gift" (B 5.22) and
          BtVS S9).
          Spike and Angel aren't even willing to let perhaps thousands die to save Fred ("A Hole in the World" (A 5.15)).
          Last edited by MikeB; 28-11-19, 08:46 PM. Reason: bolded the Ampata part


          • #50
            Did you see a different end to A Hole In The World than the rest of us?
            Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.


            • #51
              All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc. [/i]

              Originally posted by bespangled View Post
              Did you see a different end to A Hole In The World than the rest of us?
              That was obviously a typo given Spike and Angel didn't save Fred in "A Hole in the World" (A 5.15).


              • #52
                I haven't read other Posts in the thread, so Maybe this Question has come up before. How are These characters even comparable?

                The First Evil cannot be touched and therefore not be defeated. That's its strengths but at the same time it can't touch anything. That's its weakness.

                Angel and Spike (and every other vampire) are nearly unbeatable as long as you haven't got a stake at hand. If you have one (even better a crossbow) they are dust. Or you can simply open a window and let the sunlight in.

                They are incredibly powerful and incredibly weak at the same time.

                Buffy's strength is not consistent throughout 12 seasons. Who do you think would win a fight between Buffy Season 1 and Buffy Season 12? Or even Buffy Season 1 and Buffy Season 7? Which season's Buffy did you pick for your ranking?

                ................................ Banner by buffylover


                • #53
                  All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                  * I'm not sure where exactly to place Vampire Willow. She's more powerful than pre-Buffy blood Angel. She's intimidated by crosses. Wesley having a cross and Holy Water is enough to have her 'back off' from killing Cordelia and him. And she's killed by non-werewolf Oz.

                  I'd probably place her above Harmony Kendall. I'm not sure about Connor. Vampire Willow easily got vampire minions. Connor is a lone fighter or is an underling of someone else (Jasmine, arguably
                  Spike in After the Fall )

                  Originally posted by flow View Post
                  I haven't read other Posts in the thread
                  It seems you need to read the Original Post aka post #1.

                  I always pick the most powerful version of the character--meaning Season 8 or Season 9 (I reason Season 10 and after cannot be canon.) I separate various versions if an earlier version is more powerful than a later version; for example, Season 8 Willow and Season 10 Willow.
                  Last edited by MikeB; 28-11-19, 08:47 PM. Reason: typo


                  • #54
                    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                    I considerably increased Buffy Anne Summers's ranking after re-watching "The Gift" (B 5.22) and re-reading Tales of the Vampires: "Antique". I placed Buffy above Dracula. She was previously placed right below William the Bloody aka Spike.

                    Buffy's main weakness is not being immortal.

                    * I'll try to soon include Anyanka, Daniel Osbourne (given BtVS S8, he can change into werewolf form at-will), Dana (whom I'd place above Satsu, Simone Doffler, etc. and likely above Faith), the various 'bots (Buffy-Buffybot, Buffybot, Aprilbot), Doc (from BtVS S5), and the various humans.

                    Xander is shown able to punch vampires hard, but he never becomes a "demon fighter". I'm not sure how much to credit Jasmine for human Cordelia's and human Fred's pre- Angel S5 demon-fighting abilities.


                    • #55
                      All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                      I edited the Buffy Anne Summers, Dracula, Drusilla, and the Beast sections. I put the Beast considerably lower on the list. He's not close to Caleb. I now put him below Amy Madison.

                      * Regarding Faith Lehane's relatively low placement compared to Buffy:

                      Faith was similar enough to Buffy in BtVS S3 and BtVS S4. But they haven't really fought since and Buffy got considerably more powerful in BtVS S5. And then more powerful in BtVS S6. And then more powerful in BtVS S7. And then more powerful in BtVS S8.


                      • #56
                        Why have you put The Beast below Amy? I think she must lose points for her years as a rat, when she had no strength and could have been beaten by pretty much everyone else in the verse.


                        • #57
                          All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                          After realizing Buffy with the Scythe would beat the Beast, the Beast now is placed below Buffy. This in turn makes Wolfram & Hart also placed below Buffy.

                          * Wolfram & Hart's biggest accomplishments include (1) having the resources to destroy Illyria's army after Illyria is already dead and (2) having an amulet that can help to stop the First Evil's apocalypse in BtVS S7. In addition, Wolfram & Hart is the organization as a whole. The Scooby Gang would relatively easily defeat Wolfram & Hart. Even Spike if he had Illyria and Spider and Co. (and maybe the bugship) could be placed above Wolfram & Hart.

                          Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                          Why have you put The Beast below Amy? I think she must lose points for her years as a rat, when she had no strength and could have been beaten by pretty much everyone else in the verse.
                          Whether it made sense or not, Amy in BtVS S6 and after is very powerful. The Beast would stand very little and likely around no chance against BtVS S8 Amy Madison. My previous mistake was considering the Beast comparable to Caleb.

                          But the Beast and therefore Wolfram & Hart were actually placed much too high.

                          The Beast defeated the entire Fang Gang sans Connor and sans half-demon Cordelia. That's not even remotely similar to Caleb's beating 2 waves of Buffy and Co. Only Angel was at-all formidable. Gunn with an axe? Wesley with his guns? Lorne?

                          Buffy with her Scythe could have killed that group of Angel, Gunn, Wesley, and Lorne.
                          Last edited by MikeB; 30-11-19, 07:44 AM. Reason: added stuff


                          • #58
                            All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                            More edits to Caleb, Full-Powered Illyria, Amy Madison, Dark Willow, Morgan, Love Spell Jasmine, Buffy Anne Summers, the Beast, Wolfram & Hart, Dracula, Whistler, William Pratt aka William the Bloody aka Spike, UberVamp #1, Groosalugg, Post-Love Spell Jasmine,

                            I now have Morgan placed above Adam. Adam's minions aside from Spike and 'Adam' Forrest weren't special. And Enhanced Riley beat 'Adam' Forrest. Spike would have teamed with Morgan instead of Adam.

                            I moved Angel from being placed below the Master to being placed above Ampata. Angel's strength and power considerably increased after 'draining' Buffy in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22).

                            Angel didn't seem to get a permanent power boost after feeding from Hamilton. Angel may have gotten a permanent power boost from draining Drogyn, but Angel was still less strong and less powerful than Faith. It's possible Faith's blood being drugged is why Angel didn't seem to get a power boost from drinking Faith ( Angel S4).

                            Hamilton's ranking is so low because Angel's teeth could easily penetrate Hamilton's skin. And I don't recall ever seeing a vampire use its (or his or her) teeth to bite through or cut through hard metal.

                            I added Anyanka, Billy the Vampire Slayer, Enhanced Riley Finn, Robin Wood, Charles Gunn, Riley Finn, Andrew Wells, Alexander Lavelle Harris, and Dawn Summers (not including Season 10 Dawn)

                            I'll need to look through Season 9 to see if Billy the Vampire Slayer should actually be placed above Angel. I don't remember his being as formidable as pre-Season 10 Faith. But I don't remember Angel doing as well against zompires a Billy did.

                            I need to look through Season 8 and Season 9 to see where Simone Doffler should be placed and where Satsu should be placed. Both would likely likely be above Angel. But I'm not sure if they would be placed above Billy the Vampire Slayer.

                            I need to re-watch "Damage" (A 5.11) to see how high Dana should be placed. I'd put her above Faith, but I'm not sure how far above.

                            I need to re-watch Angel to see how high Winifred Burkle, Cordelia Chase, and half-demon Cordelia Chase should be placed. And how high Wesley should be placed.

                            EDIT: I added Dana the Vampire Slayer to the list. And Wesley.

                            EDIT #2:

                            * I’m trying to determine whether I should increase pre-Season 10 Faith’s rank. I still need to re-watch the Post-Love Spell Jasmine fight with Angel, albeit her rank could be arguably placed lower than Connor’s given Connor immediately kills her.

                            I don’t see evidence that pre-Seaosn 10 Faith is more formidable than BtVS S7 Anyanka and certainly not UberVamp #1.

                            The Beast had a rock body and strikes hard. Is its body actually stronger than Adam’s? BtVS S4 Spike hurt his hand when he punched Adam in the stomach (“New Moon Rising” (B 4.19)).

                            We see in BtVS S6 that Spike and Buffy can punch through demon bodies. “Smashed” (B 6.09) argues they possibly could punch through or otherwise break the Beast’s skin.