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  • So Buffy was originally supposed to...

    Come back and put Angel back on track in season 5 but they couldnt get Sarah so they used Cordelia instead?

    Im sorry but what was going through their minds when they wanted it to be Buffy?

    It would have been too soon after Chosen and her last interaction with Spike, It would have cheapened everything

    Seems like they were still rooting for Bangel even at that point <.< **side eye**

    I swear if they still are gearing for that....<.< **side eye**
    Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
    the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

  • #2
    They will never stop with the Bangelness, imo.

    Anyway, I'm very happy SMG wasn't available... the episode worked so much better with Cordy, who had been there to witness Angel's journey as a champion, and who desperately needed closure as a character.

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    • #3
      Yes and plus she was the most recent love interest in Angel's life no?

      So How on earth does it being Buffy make any darn sense?

      They better stop with the Bangelness because its too overplayed....way too overplayed.
      Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
      the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

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      • #4
        More than likely it would have been a different script, though. I can't see the same things they wrote for Cordy work the same way for Buffy, they are two different characters with two different histories with Angel.

        We will never know!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by BuffySpike View Post
          Come back and put Angel back on track in season 5 but they couldnt get Sarah so they used Cordelia instead?

          Im sorry but what was going through their minds when they wanted it to be Buffy?

          It would have been too soon after Chosen and her last interaction with Spike, It would have cheapened everything

          Seems like they were still rooting for Bangel even at that point <.< **side eye**

          I swear if they still are gearing for that....<.< **side eye**
          If it had been Buffy, the script would have certainly been different. Buffy was supposed to "get Angel back on track", give him a kick to do the right thing.

          There's no reason for it to "cheapen" her relationship with Spike, unless they wanted Buffy and Angel to get it on all lovey-dovey, which we don't know they would have; especially since I'm sure that they wouldn't have missed a chance to have her meet Spike.

          I'm not sure why we should assume that they wanted to have a Bangel fest and completely ignore Spuffy, that wouldn't have made sense from any point of view, and it's not like the writers were militantly pro-Bangel and anti-Spuffy or something. David Fury was pitching Joss an ending where Spike would shanshu and end up with Buffy.

          There's no telling what would have happened if SMG had been available. But the reason why I'm wondering "What were they thinking?" has nothing to do with Spike or Spuffy or Bangel - it's the fact that they would have apparently ignored Cordelia for the rest of season 5 and possibly only addressed her death off-screen. As if what they did with her character wasn't bad enough. It smacks of taking the resentment at the actress a bit too far.

          Speaking of stupid decisions due to actor issues, they wanted SMG to guest star later in the season, in Power Play, but when she was unavailable, so they did that moronic episode The Girl In Question, because, as Joss (I think) said, because "Sarah has moved on from Buffy, so we should all move on".
          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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          • #6
            I believe Sarah wasn't available for "You're Welcome" because of a death in the family, so obviously that was unfortunate, but I'd have rather she simply been unavailable for work or something, because that episode needed Cordelia, not Buffy.

            In fact, Buffy was a terrible idea in any of the 22 episodes of Season 5. The most powerful and effective use of the character was the one we got -- the silent, proxy condemnation she issues of the Wolfram & Hart move, because that advances the ball for the mistake that Angel had made by going there in the first place.

            "The Girl in Question" was a stupid episode because it was such a whacky, tonally false fiasco in the middle of a very dire set of episodes setting up the finale. It was a fantastic episode in that the central point of it was at least an honest attempt at Can We Please Stop Trying to Make This Entire Franchise About Which of These Two Gets to Have Sex With Buffy Next and Most Often?

            To which, of course, the resounding answer has been Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!
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            • #7
              No offense, but you seem to be looking at everything through a shipping lense when the story was bigger than Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike or Angel/Cordy. Buffy and Angel have a history together, a history that predates the relationship she formed with Spike, and the writers are perfectly within their rights to explore that relationship. I'd find it pretty ridiculous if the writers felt they couldn't have Buffy appear in Angel's show because of Spuffy in S7.

              Cordy wasn't a better fit because she was Angel's most recent love interest. She was a better fit because she had witnessed most of Angel's journey as a Champion and had far more significance to AtS as a series, which is fitting with it being the 100th episode. Through Cordy they were able to reflect back on the show's history (such as the video of Doyle) and that wouldn't have been possible with Buffy's character.

              So whilst it worked out better that Cordy appeared in the 100th episode, there'd have been no problem with Buffy appearing in another episode later down the line. I for one would have liked to hear her thoughts on Angel running W&H rather than just hearing them through Andrew. Not to mention it would've been nice just to see Sarah in the role again. And there's not a chance in hell that had she made an appearance, that they wouldn't have included a scene between her and Spike.

              Saying B/A is "over played" is shipper bias and nothing more. There's many people who feel the same about Buffy/Spike and think Joss should have left it after their resolution in Chosen. Me? I think that all of these characters are greatly significant to each other and that the writers should draw from all these relationships from time to time. Just because Buffy and Angel broke up in S3 it does not mean they cease to exist to each other anymore and that the writers should never have them interacting again.

              Cordy was the better fit for You're Welcome. For reasons far more important than shipping.
              - "The earth is doomed" -

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              • #8
                Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                No offense, but you seem to be looking at everything through a shipping lense when the story was bigger than Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike or Angel/Cordy. Buffy and Angel have a history together, a history that predates the relationship she formed with Spike, and the writers are perfectly within their rights to explore that relationship. I'd find it pretty ridiculous if the writers felt they couldn't have Buffy appear in Angel's show because of Spuffy in S7.

                Cordy wasn't a better fit because she was Angel's most recent love interest. She was a better fit because she had witnessed most of Angel's journey as a Champion and had far more significance to AtS as a series, which is fitting with it being the 100th episode. Through Cordy they were able to reflect back on the show's history (such as the video of Doyle) and that wouldn't have been possible with Buffy's character.

                So whilst it worked out better that Cordy appeared in the 100th episode, there'd have been no problem with Buffy appearing in another episode later down the line. I for one would have liked to hear her thoughts on Angel running W&H rather than just hearing them through Andrew. Not to mention it would've been nice just to see Sarah in the role again. And there's not a chance in hell that had she made an appearance, that they wouldn't have included a scene between her and Spike.

                Saying B/A is "over played" is shipper bias and nothing more. There's many people who feel the same about Buffy/Spike and think Joss should have left it after their resolution in Chosen. Me? I think that all of these characters are greatly significant to each other and that the writers should draw from all these relationships from time to time. Just because Buffy and Angel broke up in S3 it does not mean they cease to exist to each other anymore and that the writers should never have them interacting again.

                Cordy was the better fit for You're Welcome. For reasons far more important than shipping.
                Not sure if any of this was for me, or just for the first post, but I want to expand on some of it. The biggest reason for Buffy not to appear in Season 5, is because, unlike Cordy and unlike Andrew, every episode in which Buffy appears ultimately becomes Mostly About Buffy.

                In "You're Welcome", while Buffy could have filled that same role, she couldn't have filled it better than Cordelia and Cordelia, the character, and Charisma, the actress, deserved the appearance exponentially more. I suppose you could make the case that either of them appearing in that episode is of a 'shipper value, but it's more pronounced in Buffy's case, because... well, nobody at Angel Investigations/Wolfram & Hart gives more than a rather mild shit about Buffy besides Spike and Angel, which... 'shipper interest. Wes would care enough to say hi, but are they huggers? I doubt they are even huggers. Harmony would get a comedy beat with her and then promptly hide, big whoop. Cordelia has meaningful connections to every single character on the show. It always should have been Cordy, I shake my head in exasperation that, compared to that, Buffy was even an idea they had.

                Buffy showing up in "Power Play"/"Not Fade Away" would have been an abject storytelling disaster, IMO, because all of the sudden, Angel isn't even Alpha Dog on his own show. They could have made it an "Angel drops off the bauble" like appearance, but we already know they more or less would have meant for her to be on the team, but then that also means that, what, she's assigned to go kill mooks and some peripheral Black Thorn? Because that's a good use of her skills? But if you put her with Angel, then you undercut Angel's title-character credibility if she does more than just, well, what Connor did, and it's better that Connor did it, because Angel-Connor relationship is so much more important and interesting than Angel-Buffy.

                Only after she's completely pulled focus just by being in the room, do you need to look at how shipper bilge ruins the episode; can you imagine the wasted years of "Not Fade Away" discussion debating whether Angel didn't send Buffy with Spike to get the baby because he was trying to keep them apart? Or how her flicking her hair back to the left or to the right is the coded signal that it's Angel she wants to be with? I can close my eyes and imagine it clearly, and so, so glad they didn't get her.

                As for getting what Mogs mentioned, an episode to tell us how Buffy felt about the Wolfram & Hart deal, we did actually get one, and it made for five of the best minutes of Season 5, so that's covered.
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                • #9
                  None of that was a response to your post!

                  I agree wholeheartedly that Cordy was a better fit for the 100th episode. Anyway you slice it she's the superior choice and the episode is better for it. And I say that as a fan who vastly prefers Buffy to Cordelia, Bangel to Cangel, and Sarah's acting over Charismas. As much as I wanted to see Sarah return to the role, this simply wasn't the right time.

                  I also agree that they were wise not to bring her in for NFA, which Sarah had actually offered to do. It would have been too much of a distraction and a departure from what AtS is about which, like with the 100th episode, is inappropriate for the series finale.

                  But I disagree that it was better to not have her appear at all. Yeah, whatever episode she would appear in would undoubtedly focus on her but I could live with that. She's greatly significant to the protagonist of the show so that's justification enough and since TGIQ became all about her anyway, I can't see the benefits of her not appearing in the flesh. I could live quite easily with one Buffy-centric episode if it meant loosing, say, an episode about Mexican wrestlers, and I don't see how AtS S5 would have been any worse off.
                  - "The earth is doomed" -

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                    Not sure if any of this was for me, or just for the first post, but I want to expand on some of it. The biggest reason for Buffy not to appear in Season 5, is because, unlike Cordy and unlike Andrew, every episode in which Buffy appears ultimately becomes Mostly About Buffy.
                    Except not. Buffy appeared in just two episodes of AtS, and let's see:

                    I Will Remember You - is it all about Buffy? Nope, it's all about Angel. Buffy is just used as a catalyst.
                    Sanctuary - all about Buffy? Not by a long shot. It's all about Faith and Angel. Buffy's role is to show us that Angel is his own man and that his mission is more important than Buffy and that Buffy doesn't understand him.

                    The episodes where she kinda sorts "appears", even though SMG doesn't:

                    Soul Purpose - all about Angel and Spike and their competition
                    The Girl In Question - all about Angel's and Spike's competition with each other and some Gary Stu guy that everyone keeps talking about

                    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                    "The Girl in Question" was a stupid episode because it was such a whacky, tonally false fiasco in the middle of a very dire set of episodes setting up the finale. It was a fantastic episode in that the central point of it was at least an honest attempt at Can We Please Stop Trying to Make This Entire Franchise About Which of These Two Gets to Have Sex With Buffy Next and Most Often?

                    To which, of course, the resounding answer has been Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!
                    An that "honest attempt" was an episode that was in its entirety about Who Buffy is Having Sex With, where the main character of the show is preoccupied with this subject rather than far more pressing concerns - despite not having been particularly interested in the subject for 3 entire seasons of AtS that preceded it, where your two top-billed characters spend an entire episode talking about Who Buffy is Having Sex With, and where Buffy is portrayed as a trophy bimbo who's entirely defined by Who She's Having Sex With.

                    Yeah, really fantastic idea.
                    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                    • #11
                      yes I do look through shipper lenses. But the relationship was such a huge part of the later seasons of Buffy that I dont always think its a bad thing to do so. It was basically the essence of season 7. It just wouldn't make sense to me if she suddenly was all about Angel again after seasons 5 - 7 of Buffy. Angel coming back was so out of place in Chosen.

                      Im also aware that its not all about relationships. Its true what you say about Cordelia being there throughout most of the seasons of Angel and thats why it makes sense.


                      Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post

                      There's no reason for it to "cheapen" her relationship with Spike, unless they wanted Buffy and Angel to get it on all lovey-dovey, which we don't know they would have; especially since I'm sure that they wouldn't have missed a chance to have her meet Spike.

                      I'm not sure why we should assume that they wanted to have a Bangel fest and completely ignore Spuffy, that wouldn't have made sense from any point of view, and it's not like the writers were militantly pro-Bangel and anti-Spuffy or something. David Fury was pitching Joss an ending where Spike would shanshu and end up with Buffy.
                      Thing is I wouldn't even put it past them. They decided to do it in Chosen...it was ridiculous how she dropped everything and kissed him, It wouldnt even surprise me if they wrote that in during You're Welcome. Just pisses me off how much development tends to get thrown out the window when these two come together....everything stops and they cant even function properly. Seems to happen with the writers too, they cant function or think, they just shove them together no matter how much development they have written over the years. <.<
                      Last edited by BuffySpike; 20-08-12, 07:27 PM.
                      Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
                      the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                        None of that was a response to your post!

                        I agree wholeheartedly that Cordy was a better fit for the 100th episode. Anyway you slice it she's the superior choice and the episode is better for it. And I say that as a fan who vastly prefers Buffy to Cordelia, Bangel to Cangel, and Sarah's acting over Charismas. As much as I wanted to see Sarah return to the role, this simply wasn't the right time.

                        I also agree that they were wise not to bring her in for NFA, which Sarah had actually offered to do. It would have been too much of a distraction and a departure from what AtS is about which, like with the 100th episode, is inappropriate for the series finale.

                        But I disagree that it was better to not have her appear at all. Yeah, whatever episode she would appear in would undoubtedly focus on her but I could live with that. She's greatly significant to the protagonist of the show so that's justification enough and since TGIQ became all about her anyway, I can't see the benefits of her not appearing in the flesh. I could live quite easily with one Buffy-centric episode if it meant loosing, say, an episode about Mexican wrestlers, and I don't see how AtS S5 would have been any worse off.
                        I have to respectfully disagree with you - and this has nothing to do with "Shipper Perspectives" - but by this time of AtS everything was about Angel, his journey as Champion and the AI Team.

                        Buffy had already made guest appearance and Angel had done crossover as well. The theme of Buffy as mythic guide and transformation character for Angel's story had taken place many years ago- it was an established part of the Buffyverse and, IMO, did not to be explored again. Cordelia and the AI Team were the current guide figures, we had Connor and their tragic father/son story, and the tragic events of Fred/Illyria - what more could Buffy have brought into the events of AtS?

                        Angel was a great series and their final season, IMO, did not need a guest appearance from Buffy.

                        I'm afraid that this topic will have to be added to the ever increasing group of "agree to disagree" category.
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                        • #13
                          * SMG, Aly, and a bunch of Slayer extras should have been in “Not Fade Away” (5.22) because Angel’s plan was incredibly stupid and could have actually caused an apocalypse. Angel’s whole plan was to kill the Circle of the Black Thorn and have Wolfram and Hart send a huge army after the survivors of Angel and Co. thus killing all of them. Buffy, Willow, and the Slayers could have helped kill the Circle: Wesley would still be alive; and because Gunn wouldn’t have even needed to be in the fight, Gunn would have likely survived.
                          Spoiler:
                          And even if Wolfram and Hart still did the Hell-LA thing, there’d be dozens of Slayers, Buffy, and Willow also there. That whole thing would have been taken care of sooner.
                          . As for money, I’m sure that they could have swung paying for SMG and Aly given that the ratings would have been higher and DVD sales would have been higher.




                          BuffySpike

                          Come back and put Angel back on track in season 5 but they couldnt get Sarah so they used Cordelia instead?

                          Im sorry but what was going through their minds when they wanted it to be Buffy?

                          It would have been too soon after Chosen and her last interaction with Spike, It would have cheapened everything

                          Seems like they were still rooting for Bangel even at that point <.< **side eye**
                          They weren’t though. “Damage” (A 5.11) had it more than clear that if Spike wanted to be with Buffy that she’d very happily welcome him with open arms. And throughout the season and even in “The Girl in Question “A 5.20), Angel believes that if Buffy even knows that Spike is alive that she’d be with Spike again.


                          If anything, it would have been Buffy/Spike.



                          TimeTravellingBunny

                          it's not like the writers were militantly pro-Bangel and anti-Spuffy or something.
                          Most of the writers were AtS writers and so were naturally for Buffy/Angel over Buffy/Spike. Drew Goddard seemed to be the only Buffy/Spike person and David Fury by that time may have been favoring Buffy/Spike. It doesn’t seem as if Steven DeKnight favored Buffy/Spike.

                          Speaking of stupid decisions due to actor issues, they wanted SMG to guest star later in the season, in Power Play, but when she was unavailable, so they did that moronic episode The Girl In Question, because, as Joss (I think) said, because "Sarah has moved on from Buffy, so we should all move on".
                          If SMG wasn’t available, that means Buffy/Spike or Buffy/Angel couldn’t be decided and so Joss had to come up with something else. He ended up doing a decent job while also continuing the AtS tradition of being bad to Buffy.



                          KingofCretins

                          because Angel-Connor relationship is so much more important and interesting than Angel-Buffy.
                          Regarding important, no matter what you meant by “important”, Buffy-Angel is more important to the Buffyvere than Angel-Connor.

                          can you imagine the wasted years of "Not Fade Away" discussion debating whether Angel didn't send Buffy with Spike to get the baby because he was trying to keep them apart?
                          Angel wouldn’t be sending Buffy anywhere. Frankly, if Buffy were in “Not Fade Away” (A 5.11), the plan would have involved Willow and a lot of Slayers, Spike was much less likely to agree to Angel’s plan, Buffy and Spike would have been together in the end, and the whole Wolfram and Hart army would have been destroyed and that wouldn’t have required the incredible stupidity that happened in After the Fall (AtF).

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                            TimeTravellingBunny

                            Most of the writers were AtS writers and so were naturally for Buffy/Angel over Buffy/Spike.
                            First off, many of the writers from AtS were also the writers from BtVS earlier. Secondly, why would they be "naturally" for Buffy/Angel if they were working on AtS? That's a ridiculous conclusion. Buffy/Angel was a big part of the first 3 seasons of BtVS, but was barely ever a part of AtS. If anything, you'd expect the AtS writers to be much more into Angel/Cordelia and/or Angel/Darla, since those were the romantic relationships involving Angel that were central to AtS. Or even Angel/Nina, a relationship that they created for season 5. And shouldn't by that same logic all the writers who worked on BtVS in later seasons be fans of Spuffy? Which includes half of AtS's writing staff in season 5.

                            Drew Goddard seemed to be the only Buffy/Spike person and David Fury by that time may have been favoring Buffy/Spike. It doesn’t seem as if Steven DeKnight favored Buffy/Spike.
                            What does it mean "it doesn't seem as if Steven DeKnight favored Buffy/Spike"? According to what? I have never heard him say anything negative about Buffy/Spike and I don't know anything about his feelings on Buffy/Angel. And what makes you think Goddard was a "Buffy/Spike person"? The only thing I've heard about his shipping preferences is that according to some fan he said in a convention that he liked Buffy/Angel, but I've never directly seen or heard him say anything. The only thing I know about the AtS season 5 writers' shipper preferences is that David Fury (who had done a U-turn in his attitudes to Spike and Spuffy post-Chosen) suggested to Joss that Spike should shanshu and end up with Buffy.

                            If SMG wasn’t available, that means Buffy/Spike or Buffy/Angel couldn’t be decided and so Joss had to come up with something else.
                            Why would he have to decide it? If Buffy isn't in the show, he could have just left her alone, rather than making a horrible episode that thrashed all the characters involved and portrayed Buffy as a trophy bimbo who's now most notable as Gary Stumortal's new girlfriend.

                            He ended up doing a decent job while also continuing the AtS tradition of being bad to Buffy.
                            You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                            • #15
                              TimeTravellingBunny

                              My quote: Most of the writers were AtS writers and so were naturally for Buffy/Angel over Buffy/Spike.

                              First off, many of the writers from AtS were also the writers from BtVS earlier.
                              No, the AtS writers were AtS writers. They brought in David Fury (who had power), Steve DeKnight, and Drew Goddard (the only real Buffy/Spike fan and he had around no power). The rest were AtS people. And those like Tim Minnear were very strongly Buffy/Angel people.

                              The AtS writers would favor Buffy/Angel because Angel is the eponymous hero of their show and the character they’ve written for years. Spike is a ‘newcomer’ and Buffy/Spike wasn’t even mentioned on AtS before AtS s5.

                              Buffy/Angel was a big part of the first 3 seasons of BtVS, but was barely ever a part of AtS.
                              Buffy/Angel was a huge part of AtS. Even under the Awakening spell, Angel says, “Buffy” before the curse is lifted.

                              If anything, you'd expect the AtS writers to be much more into Angel/Cordelia and/or Angel/Darla, since those were the romantic relationships involving Angel that were central to AtS.
                              Cordelia was in a coma and Charisma Carpenter was no longer a regular on the show. Darla was dusted. And at no point were the writers of AtS favoring Angel/Cordelia over Buffy/Angel.

                              Or even Angel/Nina, a relationship that they created for season 5.
                              Only because Angel can’t be with Buffy.

                              And shouldn't by that same logic all the writers who worked on BtVS in later seasons be fans of Spuffy?
                              They are, including Joss. The only questionable ones are Steve DeKnight and David Fury (who apparently at some point favored Buffy/Spike over Buffy/Angel).

                              Which includes half of AtS's writing staff in season 5.
                              It wasn’t half.

                              My quote: Drew Goddard seemed to be the only Buffy/Spike person and David Fury by that time may have been favoring Buffy/Spike. It doesn’t seem as if Steven DeKnight favored Buffy/Spike.

                              What does it mean "it doesn't seem as if Steven DeKnight favored Buffy/Spike"?
                              Steve DeKnight wrote “Dead Things” (6.13) and “Seeing Red” (6.19).

                              I have never heard him say anything negative about Buffy/Spike
                              I don’t remember him saying anything positive about it.

                              And what makes you think Goddard was a "Buffy/Spike person"?
                              He is. It was in the press, in interviews, it’s even on the DVDs. And it’s one of the reasons why James Marsters wanted Drew Goddard on AtS.

                              The only thing I've heard about his shipping preferences is that according to some fan he said in a convention that he liked Buffy/Angel,
                              I never heard that.

                              My quote: If SMG wasn’t available, that means Buffy/Spike or Buffy/Angel couldn’t be decided and so Joss had to come up with something else.

                              Why would he have to decide it?
                              Buffy was the main thing keeping Angel and Spike apart. She’s the main point of friction between them.

                              If Buffy isn't in the show, he could have just left her alone, rather than making a horrible episode that thrashed all the characters involved and portrayed Buffy as a trophy bimbo who's now most notable as Gary Stumortal's new girlfriend.
                              Buffy was portrayed as having fun and being with ‘The Best Man in the World’. I only didn’t like that it was insinuated that the Immortal was using Buffy to ‘get at’ Angel and Spike. I don’t see how Buffy being with the Immortal is somehow worse than her being with Angel, Riley, or Spike. And unlike Parker, the Immortal was still with her.

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