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Original plan for Season 4

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  • Original plan for Season 4

    Season 4 of Angel is a love it or hate it season. Some fans think that it ruined Cordelia even though she was possessed. Season 4 in part is also responsible for giving us the Angel/Angelus debate. Season 4 also has some good stuff like Wesley and Lilah. Parts of Season 4 were clearly written on the spot.

    The point of this topic is to talk about the original plan for Season 4 before the writers learned that Charisma Carpenter was pregnant.
    Originally Cordelia was meant to be the big bad. Unlike the Jasmine storyline where Cordelia was possessed the original storyline would have ruined Cordelia's character.

    So how much do we know about the original plan for Season 4 of Angel?
    My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

  • #2
    I think it would be extremely helpful if you first gave us more information on what the "original plan" was - some source material that we can read.
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    • #3
      I agree, it would be great if you had some links to what season 4 was originally gonna be.

      I wonder if the Jasmine plot was part of the original plan.

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      • #4
        Well, certainly we know it was changed to accommodate Charisma's pregnancy, but what they were going to do before that we can really only guess at.

        I remember watching it unfold, it felt like and I hoped that they were doing a two network crossover plot between it and Season 7, and that the Beast and all its whackiness were another aspect of the First's march.
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        • #5
          I found a file "Succubus may03" on my hard drive. Apparently, it's a transcript of an interview at the Succubus Club writers has in May 2003. The link to the actual interview and the transcript doesn't work, but here's an excerpt from the text that I saved.

          > Semi-full Transcript...(Casting Spoilers for S5 Ats, spoilers to LMPTM Btvs) -- s'kat, 22:10:50 05/15/03 Thu

          Listening to it now and here is a semi transcript:
          []= mine and () mine or summaries
          Tim Minear (TM) and David Fury(DF). Commentator (C)
          Angel (ATS) and Firefly (F)




          DF= we knew CC was the Big Bad for A4. But CC was pregnant so how are we going to do Angel doing a fight with the big bad pregnant lady.

          it was Tim's idea for both Willow and Darla back, not all Joss. What we came up with CC's pregnancy was that the child - Jasmine would be the true Big Bad. And not big evil guy - no a woman, and it's not an evil woman, but someone who'd bring peace.

          TM= we were so bored with the big evil kung fu fighting bad guy.

          Jasmine - had a garden of evil element - except there are rules.

          TM= CC - initially wanted her to come out of her coma and put her fist through Jasmine's skull. But didn't work b/c CC couldn't work those hours at that point in her pregnancy, all she could do was be in a coma for a part of the period. So we had to work around her. Sometimes things just are the mother of necessity.

          C= Why Cordelia as the BB ?

          DF=[they always planned it] There's no drama in a love that can be. It creates an emotional resonance for the good mother to turn.

          TM= when we had her ascended into heaven...we hated that turned us off, gave wrong thing

          DF= actually we didn't know where to go with her there. So we had to figure out where to go from there.

          [This was confusing section - voices overlap]

          It was her - her body used by this thing. The C/C wasn't supposed to be sexy. It was supposed to disturbing and creepy. TM =No way sexy fun, creepy goodness

          DF = no way to bring her back the way she was before, I loved the original Cordy, but since we wrote her out of that, we couldn't

          TM= we did erase her memory and tried to bring her back with old Cordy. But we want them to grow

          The problem this year was we had an actress who was pregnant...if she hadn't been pregnant we'd never have done it.

          Reason I wanted to bring Darla back in Inside Out to bring the closure. But our hands completely tied b/c Cordy got pregnant and had to put it in.

          C= she'll be back?

          TM/DF = she'll be back in some way, we need closure. She needs to come out of the coma and she is part of Angel and important to his arc. He's longing for her. Always hanging over him. Cares about her as his love.
          I don't know if we can completely trust everything writers say (f.ex., in 2005 Fury said that they were never considering killing off anyone in the core group, but it's known that Joss pondered on killing Xander and using him as an impersonation of The First for the last episodes of BtVS). So, take this semi-transcript with a grain of salt.
          Last edited by Moscow Watcher; 25-06-12, 12:20 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
            I found a file "Succubus may03" on my hard drive. Apparently, it's a transcript of an interview at the Succubus Club writers has in May 2003. The link to the actual interview and the transcript doesn't work, but here's an excerpt from the text that I saved.
            It works for me. I listened to that interview a couple of months ago, here's the link: http://web.archive.org/web/200601081...yTimMinear.mp3

            This is the link for the archive - it has mp3s of all their shows from 2003 and some from 2002, plus a few earlier interviews of ME writers (from 2002, during season 6).

            Other interviews:

            Drew Greenberg, 9 January 2002 http://web.archive.org/web/200601081...wGreenberg.mp3

            Steven DeKnight, 8 May 2002 http://web.archive.org/web/200601081...enDeKnight.mp3

            David Fury, 15 May 2002 http://web.archive.org/web/200601081..._DavidFury.mp3

            Jane Espenson, 22 May 2002 http://web.archive.org/web/200602120...neEspenson.mp3

            Drew Goddard discusses Dirty Girls and Empty Places, 30 April 2003 http://web.archive.org/web/200601081...lub_030430.mp3

            Drew Greenberg, Jane Espenson and Rebecca Rand Kirshner discuss "Touched", 7 May 2003 http://web.archive.org/web/200601081...erEspenson.mp3

            All interviews are incredibly interesting, but Minear's and Fury's joint interview is the only one that's about both AtS and BtVS, all the others just discuss seasons 6 and 7 of BtVS - although Jane comments a little on Angel/Cordelia in her 2002 interview.

            ------------

            Here's another, more recent interview with Tim Minear where he talks about AtS, including Cordelia's arc in S4: RedemptionCast - Tim Minear Q&A, 1 March 2012 http://www.redemptioncast.blogspot.c...-spoilers.html

            He says some interesting things about Angel/Darla and how he retconned Buffy/Angel as a "rebound relationship" for Angel/reaction to his relationship with Darla (around 13 minutes in), admits he disliked Cordy's ascension arc in S3 and the Angel/Cordy relationship (around 15 minutes) and talks about the season 4 Cordy arc, which he mostly didn't work on since he was off doing Firefly (around 16.25).
            Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 25-06-12, 05:05 PM.
            You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
              Here's another, more recent interview with Tim Minear where he talks about AtS, including Cordelia's arc in S4: RedemptionCast - Tim Minear Q&A, 1 March 2012 http://www.redemptioncast.blogspot.c...-spoilers.html

              He says some interesting things about Angel/Darla and how he retconned Buffy/Angel as a "rebound relationship" for Angel/reaction to his relationship with Darla (around 13 minutes in), admits he disliked Cordy's ascension arc in S3 and the Angel/Cordy relationship (around 15 minutes) and talks about the season 4 Cordy arc, which he mostly didn't work on since he was off doing Firefly (around 16.25).
              Thanks! I love Tim Minear. I think his take on Angel is brilliant. His departure from AtS season 4 was a big blow. I adore what he did on Firefly (Out of Gas is one of my favs), but I have the impression that he was sorely missed on AtS.

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              • #8
                Here's another, more recent interview with Tim Minear where he talks about AtS, including Cordelia's arc in S4: RedemptionCast - Tim Minear Q&A, 1 March 2012 http://www.redemptioncast.blogspot.c...-spoilers.html
                For whatever reason, it says that link doesn't work anymore.

                He says some interesting things about Angel/Darla and how he retconned Buffy/Angel as a "rebound relationship" for Angel/reaction to his relationship with Darla (around 13 minutes in),
                Another example of how Tim Minnear is not the arbiter of canon for the Buffyverse.

                __________

                All I can say about the thread topic is that I consider that Charisma Carpenter didn't have much of a right -- if any -- to complain about the Cordy/Connor stuff. SMG was forced to do the Balcony Scene and James Marsters was forced to do the attempted rape scene. Someone had to have impregnated Cordy and that someone was not going to be Angel, Wes, or Gunn. So, that left Connor.

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