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  • The Old Ones/Powers That Be

    I am very interested in the Old Ones. Mayor Richard Wilkins III's transformation into the embodiment of the demon Olvikan and Fred becoming Illyria was a very interesting way of bringing depth to the series. My question lies more in the Powers That Be. Jasmine says that in the beginning, great power emanated across the land, powerful beings existed and this is when the seeds that created good and evil were created. Going off this, it sounds the the PTB and the Old Ones existed with one another because the ones who could resist the evil left this dimension but remained "ever watchful." Because of this, are the PTB's Old Ones in and of themselves, just not malevolent? I ask this because Jasmine, when she is "born" comes out as a very large squid-like demon. When she devours a room full of people in "Peace Out" she's large enough to take out the entire room. I guess what I am picturing is a bunch of "good demons" in a higher dimension looking out for Angel and Co. Any thoughts on this?

  • #2
    This is actually interesting. I choose to view the PTB as good and Skip even explains that Jasmine is a fallen PTB or power that was. Jasmine fell of grace because maybe she was tempted with power and even though she claims she wants peace, she still does it the wrong way.
    Jasmine is someone who wants peace but by stripping people of their will and their own choices while the PTB merely help someone in the right direction or change their course. They don´t mess with free will, imo.

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    • #3
      From what I understood the Powers That Be are guardians of the balance between good and evil, they are the neutral forces in the universe. But as long evil tries to gain more and more power, the PTB's will help the forces of good to keep it balanced. But I do not believe that they care about AI by example, what happened to Cordelia was not just Jasmine's fault. The PTB indirectly gave Doyle (a demon) the chance to transfer his gift to Cordelia (a human) despite Cordy not being able to survive that. But they still wanted to contact Angel so Cordelia's wellbeing got sacrificed. When the PTB 'let' Cordelia say goodbye to her friends as some sort of excuse for what happened to her, it's rather obvious she is serving the big picture again. She gives Angel information (information he trusts because Cordy gives him this) he needs to hurt W&H. Of course they keep Cordelia around (it's hinted she didn't really die but went to another place), because she can be used as a messenger for the AI members. They trust her more than Whistler, a demon like Skip or another creature. It's all about the bigger picture, a big chess game and Angel is nothing but a pawn (one with a free will, hence them using Cordy to 'guide' him).

      I think that Jasmine really wanted to help and defeat evil but got corrupted as soon she came on earth. And believed in doing evil to create good because she did a lot of immoral things to get to earth in the first place. She could be an old one, but it's also possible she was something else it's never made clear. She refers to herself as a god while old ones are pure demons, but it's also possible she liked 'god' better than 'demon'.

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      • #4
        I actually feel sorry for Jasmine because what she was trying to achieve was not totally evil and it made us wonder what is better.
        But yeah, the PTB didn´t seem to care much about the AI. I mean, how could they let that happen to Cordy?

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        • #5
          She could be an old one, but it's also possible she was something else it's never made clear. She refers to herself as a god while old ones are pure demons, but it's also possible she liked 'god' better than 'demon'.[/QUOTE]

          This is what I was looking for. Are the PTB's Old Ones, although upon reading what you both have said and thinking about it more, Illyria referred to herself as a God-King. While I do not believe they are Gods (such as Glory), just pure demons, one things catches my attention: Jasmine tells Angle she was "forged from the fires of creation." So perhaps the PTB's are not "Old Ones" but existed at the same time. As the corruption grew, they left and watched over humanity making sure the evil never overtook the good. (kind of interesting they played no part in The First's plan in Season 7. Hmph.)

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          • #6
            We don't know if Glory was a god either, all we know is that she was called a god. But you are right, both Illyria and Jasmine are called gods as well. But if we use proper logic, we can't say that all three are pure demons simply because Illyria is one and all three were called gods. But it's likely they are related somewhere/somehow.


            But what is a god anyway? Highest being? Creator of the Universe? Unbeatable? All knowing? Immortal? I think that neither of the three were still a god when we saw them at earth (Jasmine, Illyria & Glory were all three mortal after they became part-human and immortality seems to be a key characteristic for a God.) We know too little of Glory in her true form but she could be a goddess since we have no reason to believe she wasn't and we do know she was one of the three big forces in her home dimension. From what we know the Powers that Be do take the place of a god, they oversee the universe, are immortal, are perhaps also all knowing and have a lot of power if they want to. (Just look at Jasmine's actions, she created Connor indirectly... so she could defy the rules of nature.) I don't think Illyria was a god like the other two since Illyria lived on earth in a temple and was at war with the other god-kings. Illyria sounds more like a very powerful demon who was worshipped like a god and not an actual god.

            There are also three other godly entities; The Wolf, the Ram & The Hart. It kind of depends if we want to use After the Fall as a source of information, I'm not fond of using comics (despite their canon status) because the comics went overboard and logic is nowhere to be found. But it looks like these three worked themselves up to god-status and plan to take over one day. But Illyria told us that they were nothing in the past, so they probably lack the godly powers the others have. And in ATF we find out that they pay others to do the impressive magic and have very little power themselves. Didn't stop them from playing god in several dimensions though.

            The First is a difficult one, it doesn't seem to fit in the PtB/Old One history lessons we got from Jasmine & Illyria. The reason for this is bad communication between the writers (I guess) but in the story one of the two lied about their past. I'm more inclined to believe Jasmine because she wasn't 100% evil and her story sounds more plausible. Why the PtB did nothing about the First... perhaps they knew that WR&H wouldn't allow a big apocalypse to happen before their big one happens. (Of course they retconned it from W&H giving Angel the amulet to Lindsey doing that.... what doesn't even make sense... *sigh*)
            Last edited by Nina; 11-04-12, 03:05 PM.

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