Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Was it extravagant for Angel to buy the Hyperion Hotel?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • MikeB
    replied
    KingofCretins

    My quote: canon is ultimately determined by Joss, not by the various writers

    This has always been true.

    The other writers can have opinions on things but those opinions are not automatically canon.

    Joss is actively involved of nearly every script and he has in the past, more than once, explicitly said that he owns every event written into the story by his writers. So there is not one rational reason to think that Minear, on his comments about an episode he wrote, does not speak with canonical authority absent some contrary statement by Joss.
    Minnear having an opinion doesn’t mean that that opinion is canon.

    Extravagance is pretty subjective, anyway.
    To a point. Having a 100-room luxury hotel – that includes a huge pool that’s never used – when only a few rooms are ever actually used is extravagant especially since it’s not as if Angel is pulling in tens of millions of dollars a year.

    My quote: I’ve always assumed that simply David Nabbit simply gave them a ton of money – possibly millions of dollars – and that’s the only way that they afforded that place.

    Nabbit's advice never explicitly mentioned whether or not they'd be discussing getting him in as an investor, just how they can make their claim on the property legal. Where they came up with the money, or how much it was, I couldn't care less. It's completely unimportant. A wizard did it.
    Are you okay with how Buffy and Co. got funds during BtVS S8?

    Leave a comment:


  • KingofCretins
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
    KingofCretins

    No, I say it because canon is ultimately determined by Joss, not by the various writers.
    Joss is actively involved of nearly every script and he has in the past, more than once, explicitly said that he owns every event written into the story by his writers. So there is not one rational reason to think that Minear, on his comments about an episode he wrote, does not speak with canonical authority absent some contrary statement by Joss.

    So, you agree it was extravagant?
    I've never thought about it, neither before nor after being asked -- I don't care if it is or not. Extravagance is pretty subjective, anyway. Even if it wasn't fictional, it's not my business, because it's not my money, or yours.

    I’ve always assumed that simply David Nabbit simply gave them a ton of money – possibly millions of dollars – and that’s the only way that they afforded that place.
    Nabbit's advice never explicitly mentioned whether or not they'd be discussing getting him in as an investor, just how they can make their claim on the property legal. Where they came up with the money, or how much it was, I couldn't care less. It's completely unimportant. A wizard did it.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeB
    replied
    All caught up




    Lostsoul666

    unless Joss says otherwise I see no reason to not accept what Tim Minear said.
    One can accept it as a possibility. But it’s not automatically canon merely because Tim Minnear said something.



    KingofCretins

    Exactly. Minear wrote the episode, after all. Mike drops that "not the arbiter of canon" line on ME writers a lot as though it proves they're wrong, but unless they are actually contradicted by Joss, there is no reason at all do think they are mistaken.
    No, I say it because canon is ultimately determined by Joss, not by the various writers.

    The initial question wasn't how did he afford it, it was "was it extravagant"? The answer to the extravagance is... so what if it is? There is nothing wrong with extravagance.
    So, you agree it was extravagant?

    There is nothing wrong with having money an using it.
    This is a political statement but it’s relevant – for me – here because Angel and Co. barely were able to afford the place. Otherwise, there’d be no complaints about the huge rent and then huge mortgage.

    The question of how he afforded it, well, in the story, the Hyperion is an abandoned property that is flirting with being condemned. It's value, even as commercial real estate, is probably rather depressed, and they call that out in the text of "Are You Now..." because of the various incidents caused by the Thesulac. The thing that they could have added for realism and to sell the idea of its abandonment would have been squatters, but... extras cost. Angel apparently afforded his prior office, so he did have money, Cordy's snark aside, just not unimagined riches.
    But the land alone would be worth millions of dollars. The property in total would be worth at least tens of millions, even at a depressed price.

    Nabbit's advice passes the smell test, so that they could have taken over owning it with nothing down and probably for more or less what they were already getting as a lease is not that hard to imagine. They do get paid, after all, even though the story is usually circumspect about how much.
    I’ve always assumed that simply David Nabbit simply gave them a ton of money – possibly millions of dollars – and that’s the only way that they afforded that place.

    Leave a comment:


  • niskaisfact
    replied
    Only in Angel would we get a lesson in squatters rights and have the villainous law firm talk about zoning problems...

    Leave a comment:


  • buffyholic
    replied
    I agree with vampmogs, he stayed in that building mostly for his connection with it.
    But I actually missed the small office of season 1.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingofCretins
    replied
    Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
    True, but unless Joss says otherwise I see no reason to not accept what Tim Minear said.
    Exactly. Minear wrote the episode, after all. Mike drops that "not the arbiter of canon" line on ME writers a lot as though it proves they're wrong, but unless they are actually contradicted by Joss, there is no reason at all do think they are mistaken.

    The initial question wasn't how did he afford it, it was "was it extravagant"? The answer to the extravagance is... so what if it is? There is nothing wrong with extravagance. There is nothing wrong with having money an using it.

    The question of how he afforded it, well, in the story, the Hyperion is an abandoned property that is flirting with being condemned. It's value, even as commercial real estate, is probably rather depressed, and they call that out in the text of "Are You Now..." because of the various incidents caused by the Thesulac. The thing that they could have added for realism and to sell the idea of its abandonment would have been squatters, but... extras cost. Angel apparently afforded his prior office, so he did have money, Cordy's snark aside, just not unimagined riches.

    Nabbit's advice passes the smell test, so that they could have taken over owning it with nothing down and probably for more or less what they were already getting as a lease is not that hard to imagine. They do get paid, after all, even though the story is usually circumspect about how much.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lostsoul666
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
    Lostsoul666

    Tim Minear is not the arbiter of canon.
    True, but unless Joss says otherwise I see no reason to not accept what Tim Minear said.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeB
    replied
    KingofCretins

    He wanted it, he could afford it, he got it
    How could he afford it. Legally, it’d be extremely difficult for him to claim that the property was entirely for his business. Pretty much he could only claim the reception desk, that little office and maybe the lobby as a business expense.

    And there were pretty much constant complaints about the ability to afford the rent and then mortgage for the place.



    Lostsoul666

    Tim Minear says that Angel did not keep the money or use it to buy the hotel. Tim Minear says that Angel sent it back to the bank from which Judy stole it in 1952.
    Tim Minear is not the arbiter of canon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lostsoul666
    replied
    Originally posted by zianna View Post
    Yeah that's true, if only it was his own money. You forget that it was the money that Judy stole from a bank. The money that Angel had hidden and found it again after so many years. And he decided that it was his to use however he wanted because of what? He deserved it? And the way he decided to use that money, was to settle in a huge hotel with 99% of the rooms empty.
    Tim Minear says that Angel did not keep the money or use it to buy the hotel. Tim Minear says that Angel sent it back to the bank from which Judy stole it in 1952.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingofCretins
    replied
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    Oh, and Angel is free to buy whatever he likes with his own money. If he wants to set up shop in an abandoned hotel then that’s fine. It’s weird to criticise him for that. He can purchase whatever he likes.
    This is the answer, the only one that is relevant. It is the only justification Angel ever need to advance for purchasing the Hyperion. He can make others, the symbolism of redeemed building, redeemed vampire, etc, but those are only if he feels like indulging them. He wanted it, he could afford it, he got it, /thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeB
    replied
    I have to revisit my original post because of the things said in this thread.

    My quote: Angel Investigations in Season 1 had relatively 'normal offices' for that kind of business. Angel lived in a decent apartment. Cordelia got her apartment through Doyle. And it's assumed that Wesley got his apartment sometime in Season 1.

    Gunn and Fred could have also gotten their own places. There was no business reason for Angel to decide to rent and then mortgage the Hyperion Hotel.

    My quote: But then suddenly Angel decides his new offices are going to be a building that's worth tens of millions of dollars and possibly 9-figures.

    It seems some don’t believe this. That six-month lease very likely cost 7-figures. When they were mortgaging the place, that would likely cost even more per year.

    My quote: Gunn and Fred don't move in until Season 3. Before that, Angel Investigations only used the hotel manager's office, and the lobby. Angel himself used a single suite upstairs.

    Just restating that in the beginning, it was only for Angel.

    My quote: When Angel fired Cordelia, Wesley, and Gunn, the latter three set up the new Angel Investigations in a small office and they got clients.

    Again, there was no business reason to have that place.

    My quote: In a larger sense this is about the idea that Angel and Cordy soon were using the business as a way to 'get rich' and that they sometimes took 'low priority' cases simply because the client was going to pay them a lot of money.

    In most posts this is either downplayed or ignored.

    ________________

    Angel’s past with the place doesn’t justify him leasing it and then him buying it. I am perfectly fine with Angel in BtVS staying in the mansion. Angel staying in the Hyperion is a ridiculous luxury that meant he had to charge clients millions per year.

    _________________

    Angel Investigations bringing in enough income to afford what Angel and Co. bought: I don’t see how. I just assume that David Nambet gave them millions or possibly tens of millions of dollars. Otherwise, I don’t see how that business was making millions a year.

    __________________

    The notion that the Hyperion was a “dump” or decrepit or dilapidated or that it would cost a ton of money to make it livable is simply false. All the Fang Gang had to do was pick up a little trash and we saw Cordy with a hand duster thing.

    _____________________

    The argument that Angel is free to buy what he wants with his own money means that it’s perfectly fine that Angel and Co. charged the people they saved millions of dollars per year.

    ______________________

    Why would Angel have gotten insurance money from his offices being blown up? Was he insured for that? Did he have policies on Cordelia and Wesley?

    ________________________

    If the real estate company had finally given up on selling or leasing the place, they would have simply demolished the place and sold the land for millions of dollars. Or if it was considered a historical landmark, they could have sold it to the city for even more money.

    __________________________

    In the United States legal code, Angel only had a right to stay there when he was leasing. When the lease was up, the owners could lease it or sell it to the highest bidder.




    Lyri

    I'm not American, so forgive me if I'm not understanding something, but 'tens of millions of dollars' sounds a tad extreme for a building like the Hyperion. Two or three million, I could maybe see, but upwards of ten million dollars? Where I live, you could by a honking castle for that!
    Um, it was a 68-room – or 100-room – luxury hotel in a good part of Los Angeles. The land under the thing was worth millions of dollars.



    Nina

    They didn't pay anything for it.

    ………………………………………………………….

    Angel: "We're making this hotel our new base of operations. Right now we're leasing it for six months with an option to buy."
    It wasn’t free, so, I don’t know what you mean “They didn’t pay anything for it.” Angel leased for six months or whatever and then they had a mortgage. They were also paying things like property taxes, utilities, etc.

    AI was always broke, remember them using the same coffeefilter twice? Or Angel's fear of not being able to take care of Connor because he has no money for college? They never made a lot of money, just enough to live.
    “Just enough to live” is totally inaccurate. Angel with Gunn and Fred was living in a place worth at least tens of millions of dollars and likely over 9-figures.

    If they didn't ask money from time to time they couldn't do what they did.
    Angel could have gotten similar offices to ones he had in AtS s1 or the one that Cordelia got when Angel fired them. And over on BtVS, Xander and Anya managed to get jobs. The Fang Gang could have gotten jobs as well.

    the chance that they all would find another job is 0%. Especially Angel (vampire & no education) and Gunn (I don't think he finished highschool, or ever had a proper job but he does have a history as a gangster.) won't be able to find a job.
    Angel managed to get his apartment on BtVS and AtS. Gunn could have gotten something as well.

    If Cordy gets a vision at 1 PM,
    Cordy wasn’t supposed to have the visions anyway.

    __________________________________________________ __

    But it was obvious that the city had no plans with the ground (yet) so the building was useless anyway.
    It was owned by some real estate company or whatever.

    Angel was once the most vicious vampire of all time, feared and respected.
    That’s another debate.



    Ehlwyen

    The most likely scenario is that AI does bring in enough money to pay for the business operating expenses. Angel had his last place destroyed, so he had not been making a monthly lease payment for the last 4 months. So right there is some capital.
    “Some capital” which wouldn’t be near the at least 6-figures a month that would be required each month to be able to stay there.

    The last place was in an office building with other offices, most likely designed for small businesses and high turnover of those businesses so the property holder could make a good profit. I would assume the rent was farly high per square foot.

    The Hyperion had been abandoned and most likely a sinkhole of money for the current property holder. Angel was probably able to make a deal for a reasonable monthly lease payment.
    Are you implying that the lease for the AtS s1 offices was anything but a small fraction of what the lease for the Hyperion would be?

    Regardless of what Angel knows about the hotel now being unhaunted, an appraiser would not take that into consideration when determining the hotel's value. A bank's appraisal of the property has to be equal or more than the mortgage that Angel would have to take out in order to buy the Hyperion. I'm not as familiar with FHA loans but they have their own restrictions that make them harder to obtain although often more cost affordable. This episode was also back when the housing industry was allowing financing to anyone even if it was unlikely they could afford it.
    This isn’t a ‘home’. It’s a huge luxury hotel in West Los Angeles.



    zianna

    Did he inform the previous owners though that the demon living inside was now all gone? I guess not. Or else he would have never been able to get such a huge place occupying the whole block in the middle of LA.
    Yeah, I don’t reason it’s realistic that he could have leased it and then bought it as-is. But if the management company could re-open the hotel or convert it into apartments, they’d do that instead of giving it to Angel. Or they’d charge Angel a lot more money.

    Leave a comment:


  • zianna
    replied
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    AI always struggled to get by, that's no secret. We also know that they managed, like Ehlwyen pointed out, they managed before the big bad with money as well. They make money, they just don't make a lot. We don't know the amount of money they have to pay for the Hyperion but it's likely not a lot since Nabbit said it could've been done for no money at all. If they lease, it's perhaps for a symbolic price as long te city has no other plans for the building.


    I don't know how it works in other countries, but over here it's very normal that people can rent a building for a very small amount of money when the city has no current plans for a building. By example the local theater (a pretty big building) was the house of 4 students (they only payed 100 euro a month) for the time being. It's a win win situation. I can see something like that happening with the Hyperion as well. And Nabbit hints to something like that.
    I don't know how it works in the Netherlands and I don't know how it works in the States, but over here you can't rent a huge building for a small amount. Especially a building that has problems like the Hyperion, unless you can make some renovation and make it habitable so it won't fall on your head. Maybe someone from California can tell us if somebody can lease a building for a small amount.

    A bit easy to say that you (without any real proof, except the order of events) are right and my arguments are wrong because of bad story writing. They obviously don't have to pay a lot and there is no real reason to believe Angel used that money since they never mentioned it.
    Then there was no reason to show us Angel finding the money, if he hadn't used it to get the place. And if there was no reason to show us that, then it was bad writing.


    He just took it for himself? You really make it sound like Angel planned it all just to get the building. Really what is your issue? That he asked if he could lease a building (he and Wes just made livable without charging a cent) nobody really wants? So he didn't explain the demon-thing, but then I doubt that anyone would believe that story. (Hell we don't even know if that's true. Perhaps he did explain something while making the deal.) The current owners could've made another deal with him, they could've checked the situation out before making the deal etc. I really don't see why Angel is so in the wrong.
    But the thing is that nobody wanted the building because it was occupied by a demon. Not even homeless people. A huge place like that, an abandoned place like that in the middle of LA where thousands of homeless people live, it should have been full of them. Instead, there was none.
    The rest you say, that maybe Angel explained the situation to the owners, is just imagination. The way you say that he explained, the same way I can say that he didn't and none of us can prove the other wrong. As far as canon is concerned, he got the place without any problems for a lease of 6 months and he stayed there even longer than that.
    For me Angel is wrong, because that place was abandoned because of the demon, he removed the threat and used stolen money to get it.


    Did the owners believe in demons in the first place? And we have no clue what the prices were (only that they were low), for all we know the owners (since they still lease the building a year later, se Ehlwyen's post) kept the building but are still thinking what they want to do with it and allow AI to use it until then for a symbolic amount of money.
    Yes, Angel kept the place, but with all the legal advice from the rich guy how he could keep it. I don't know how are things in the States, but here when you make a commercial lease agreement even for a 6 months period, you are protected from the law if you want to stay more and the landlord can't throw you out or raise the amount you pay just like that. Usually the short period commercial leases protect the tenant for 5-10 years, even if he had signed a contract for 6 months (the same applies for the owners as well, if they have a contract of 6 months and the tenant wants to leave afterwards, the owner has the right to ask a refund of the loses for the remaining years if he wants to). I guess something similar must happen in the States as well.

    So Angel got a lease for 6 months for a place, rather cheap considering its real value, and then he could still stay in the place even if the owner didn't want him, paying the same amount of money even if the owner finds out that the hotel is habitable now and he can make more money out of it.
    Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, that's manipulation.


    Didn't Darla kill the baby? And I think there is a huge difference between helping somebody with their problems and not eating a baby for Angel. Because the former is what he sees as his true calling. The events of "Why We Fight" happed during his time at the Hyperion (although before Judy) and again it wasn't all that noble, he even sired a good man. Not very positive... And in both cases he was forced, first by Darla and the second time by the goverment. Judy was obviously the first time Angel decided to help somebody (which is different from not killing somebody) because he wanted to help her.
    Darla offered the baby to Angel to feed on it, to prove himself to her that he could be evil. Angel grabbed the baby and left and never returned to Darla again. We didn't see what happened to the baby, but the way it was played it let us understand that Angel saved it.
    One more thing about that, when Spike goes to Angel in S5, at the end the mission that Angel trusts Spike is to save the baby. It's the first time that Angel really believes in Spike that he's on the good side and he trusts him with a mission that basically mirrors the first good thing that he had done. Which is to save a baby, Angel from Darla, Spike from those demons.

    Angel wasn't forced to save the baby, he could have run away without it and leave it to Darla. But he chose to get the baby with him to save it from become food for a vampire. That was the first time that Angel saved someone, not with Judy.



    Angel also lived in small flats without windows, on the streets and in dark and small hotelrooms, but I don't hold it against him that he prefers more space and light since I also prefer those. I fail to see the real problem here, it's obvious (to me at least) that he didn't choose the Hyperion because he wanted 100 bedrooms in his home but because he felt a connection with the building.
    And again, I don't see any connection with the building, especially considering the years that followed. Nothing made me think that there is a connection between Angel and the hotel.

    I suggest we agree to disagree because I don't think we'll get on one line about this. We both use assumptions to back up our argument. (Because Ats is no different from most tv shows... characters always have more luxery than their income suggests. And money issues are only an issue in the episodes where it's required for drama.) Going back to the original question of this thread: "Was it extravagant for Angel to buy the Hyperion?" my answer is stil no, not only didn't he buy it, he also choose it because the building meant something for him and not to show of. (A bit difficult to show of with a dump, but whatever.)
    OK.

    And to answer the question myself, no it wasn't extravagant since he got it rather cheap, but he took advantage of the situation in orfer to get it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nina
    replied
    Originally posted by zianna View Post
    No you don't have to go through transcripts because you won't find anything.
    What we know is that Angel didn't have any money, he'd been having a hard time paying his employees.
    Then we see him finding the money he had hidden, and then he tells his team that they were moving in the hotel.
    And then we learn that he got a 6 months lease on it and he had no intention of paying more.
    Years after, we learn that he wants to start saving for Connor.
    AI always struggled to get by, that's no secret. We also know that they managed, like Ehlwyen pointed out, they managed before the big bag with money as well. They make money, they just don't make a lot. We don't know the amount of money they have to pay for the Hyperion but it's likely not a lot since Nabbit said it could've been done for no money at all. If they lease, it's perhaps for a symbolic price as long te city has no other plans for the building.

    Now you tell me what happened to that money and if Angel was able to get the hotel by an insurance (which by the way, even if Angel had owed the place where his office used to be, there is no way that it would be enough to pay a 6 months lease for a huge hotel. Yes the place was a crap, but still it worthed much more money than an apartment with an office on top).
    I don't know how it works in other countries, but over here it's very normal that people can rent a building for a very small amount of money when the city has no current plans for a building. By example the local theater (a pretty big building) was the house of 4 students (they only payed 100 euro a month) for the time being. It's a win win situation. I can see something like that happening with the Hyperion as well. And Nabbit hints to something like that.

    The story goes like that. Angel finds the money, and tells his team they go to the hotel. Everything else is bad story writing, the money was used to rent the place.
    A bit easy to say that you (without any real proof, except the order of events) are right and my arguments are wrong because of bad story writing. They obviously don't have to pay a lot and there is no real reason to believe Angel used that money since they never mentioned it.


    I know it's a bad example, that's why I said it. But still, that building belonged to somebody. And the reason that that somebody wasn't able to sell it or take advantage of it one way or another, was because the place was hunted or better occupied by a demon. Nobody could even go near that place without getting crazy. Angel removed that threat, but in a way used that threat to get the place. He didn't inform the owner/s before getting it that the place was safe now and that they could use it or sell it however they wanted. He just took it for himself.
    He just took it for himself? You really make it sound like Angel planned it all just to get the building. Really what is your issue? That he asked if he could lease a building (he and Wes just made livable without charging a cent) nobody really wants? So he didn't explain the demon-thing, but then I doubt that anyone would believe that story. (Hell we don't even know if that's true. Perhaps he did explain something while making the deal.) The current owners could've made another deal with him, they could've checked the situation out before making the deal etc. I really don't see why Angel is so in the wrong.


    Did he inform the previous owners though that the demon living inside was now all gone? I guess not. Or else he would have never been able to get such a huge place occupying the whole block in the middle of LA.
    Did the owners believe in demons in the first place? And we have no clue what the prices were (only that they were low), for all we know the owners (since they still lease the building a year later, se Ehlwyen's post) kept the building but are still thinking what they want to do with it and allow AI to use it until then for a symbolic amount of money.

    The first time that Angel saved somebody was a baby back in China. And then he helped the Americans take control of a submarine.
    Didn't Darla kill the baby? And I think there is a huge difference between helping somebody with their problems and not eating a baby for Angel. Because the former is what he sees as his true calling. The events of "Why We Fight" happed during his time at the Hyperion (although before Judy) and again it wasn't all that noble, he even sired a good man. Not very positive... And in both cases he was forced, first by Darla and the second time by the goverment. Judy was obviously the first time Angel decided to help somebody (which is different from not killing somebody) because he wanted to help her.


    Like I said, I disagree. Wesley was a loser and he had proved himself to be a loser when he was given 2 slayers and lost both of them. Cordelia the same, she was a swallow spoiled rich girl who later found a new purpose in life by given her visions. Gunn was a leader of a gang who believed that everything is wither black or white. A demon is always a bad demon and needs to be killed. Close to Angel he also found a new better purpose and so did his team later. The metaphor you use doesn't work for me. On the other hand, Angel himself had admitted that he likes big spaces and big buildings. And the moment he finds one in Sunnydale, he takes it. And he does exactly the same when he finds the same opportunity in LA. In S9,
    Spoiler:
    again he lives in Faith's place in a huge expensive house in London (although here one can say that it is Faith that wants him there, but so far he hasn't even said anything about moving out in his own place)
    . What I see here is a pattern, one that Angel admitted himself. He likes living in open spaces and big buildings.
    Angel also lived in small flats without windows, on the streets and in dark and small hotelrooms, but I don't hold it against him that he prefers more space and light since I also prefer those. I fail to see the real problem here, it's obvious (to me at least) that he didn't choose the Hyperion because he wanted 100 bedrooms in his home but because he felt a connection with the building.

    I suggest we agree to disagree because I don't think we'll get on one line about this. We both use assumptions to back up our argument. (Because Ats is no different from most tv shows... characters always have more luxery than their income suggests. And money issues are only an issue in the episodes where it's required for drama.) Going back to the original question of this thread: "Was it extravagant for Angel to buy the Hyperion?" my answer is stil no, not only didn't he buy it, he also choose it because the building meant something for him and not to show of. (A bit difficult to show of with a dump, but whatever.)
    Last edited by Nina; 05-04-12, 10:14 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • zianna
    replied
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    I do not feel like going through many transcripts, but is there a reason to believe it's obvious he used that money to lease? Perhaps they got insurrance money from their last place and saved some extra money in the time they used Cordy's house as an office.
    No you don't have to go through transcripts because you won't find anything.
    What we know is that Angel didn't have any money, he'd been having a hard time paying his employees.
    Then we see him finding the money he had hidden, and then he tells his team that they were moving in the hotel.
    And then we learn that he got a 6 months lease on it and he had no intention of paying more.
    Years after, we learn that he wants to start saving for Connor.

    Now you tell me what happened to that money and if Angel was able to get the hotel by an insurance (which by the way, even if Angel had owed the place where his office used to be, there is no way that it would be enough to pay a 6 months lease for a huge hotel. Yes the place was a crap, but still it worthed much more money than an apartment with an office on top).

    The story goes like that. Angel finds the money, and tells his team they go to the hotel. Everything else is bad story writing, the money was used to rent the place.


    Well that's a horrible example, a building is not a person. A building is only useful when somebody lives or works in it, it's not an entity. The hyperion was in a horrible state and there is no way you could open a new hotel, school or whatever in it without stripping and renovating it. But it was obvious that the city had no plans with the ground (yet) so the building was useless anyway. Yes it got in that state because it was possessed, but with or without that demon the building was a dump in season 2.
    I know it's a bad example, that's why I said it. But still, that building belonged to somebody. And the reason that that somebody wasn't able to sell it or take advantage of it one way or another, was because the place was hunted or better occupied by a demon. Nobody could even go near that place without getting crazy. Angel removed that threat, but in a way used that threat to get the place. He didn't inform the owner/s before getting it that the place was safe now and that they could use it or sell it however they wanted. He just took it for himself.



    Again, it's a building. The future of a building is always decided by a person or a group investors. And he asked the previous owners din't he? It's not like he squatted the place. Nor did he 'put' a demon in it to ruin the past owners. You talk like he had some horrible masterplan to get this building. All he and his team did was getting rid of the demon and they asked the owners if they could use the building. They have done less legal stuff.
    Did he inform the previous owners though that the demon living inside was now all gone? I guess not. Or else he would have never been able to get such a huge place occupying the whole block in the middle of LA.

    Angel lived in the Hyperion in the 50s, it's the place where he tried to save somebody (who was not a puppy) for the very first time. It's a place with a dark history and nobody cares about the building any longer... AI gave it a new purpose and a new life. That's pretty much a metaphor for the members of the team.
    The first time that Angel saved somebody was a baby back in China. And then he helped the Americans take control of a submarine.

    And a dump is not prestige, it was glorious once but no longer. Big =/= greatness. But again it could be seen as a metaphor; ever realised that the core of the AI team were once the best in something and are now ruined? Angel was once the most vicious vampire of all time, feared and respected. He became a pariah. Wesley was the headboy and golden boy of the CoW, but now he is fired, shunned by his family and old friends and works for a vampire. And Cordelia was the queen of Sunnydale before she ended up as a nobody in LA. Gunn was the leader of his own gang, but he got his sister killed and lost his claim on leadership. Doyle was married, a teacher... a good life but lost everything when he found out he was a demon. He became an alcoholic, lost his wife and he lost his job. Fred was a very promising scientist, got locked up in hell and became slightly crazy. Connor was the big hero in hell, but lost his hero-status quickly after entering this dimension. They are a buch of misfits, fallen from grace and lonely. The Hyperion was symbolic.
    Like I said, I disagree. Wesley was a loser and he had proved himself to be a loser when he was given 2 slayers and lost both of them. Cordelia the same, she was a swallow spoiled rich girl who later found a new purpose in life by given her visions. Gunn was a leader of a gang who believed that everything is wither black or white. A demon is always a bad demon and needs to be killed. Close to Angel he also found a new better purpose and so did his team later. The metaphor you use doesn't work for me. On the other hand, Angel himself had admitted that he likes big spaces and big buildings. And the moment he finds one in Sunnydale, he takes it. And he does exactly the same when he finds the same opportunity in LA. In S9,
    Spoiler:
    again he lives in Faith's place in a huge expensive house in London (although here one can say that it is Faith that wants him there, but so far he hasn't even said anything about moving out in his own place)
    . What I see here is a pattern, one that Angel admitted himself. He likes living in open spaces and big buildings.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ehlwyen
    replied
    Thank you Nina for posting the quote from First Impressions. Glad I'm not the only one remembering it, I Nabbit!

    Also there is this one from Over the Rainbow.


    Over the Rainbow

    We see that two men in business suits carrying briefcases have entered.

    Park: Angel. Good afternoon.

    Angel: Lawyers. Don't you people sleep during the day?

    Park: I'm Gavin Park. This is my associate, Mr. Hayes. We represent Wolfram and...

    Angel: Already bored.

    Park: We've come to appraise the hotel.

    Angel: What?

    Park: Correct me if I'm wrong, but your lease expires in six months and Wolfram and Hart is interested in purchasing this building.

    Angel: You got to be kidding me. You guys couldn't get me to turn evil, so now you wanna evict me? You know, they're trying to annoy me to death.

    Park: We'd like to take a walk around the place if you don't mind.

    Angel in vamp face: You think I mind?'

    Hayes can't help but stare a little, but Park shows no reaction.

    Park: Very well. We'll notify the real estate company of your noncompliance. They should send you a notice of obligation. After that if you still refuse to cooperate, well, I'm sure that somewhere in your lease agreement there must be one or two loop holes to be exploited.
    At this point we find out that Angel is still leasing the Hyperion like he would have had to do for any other office space.

    W&H comes to Angel and threatens him with legal attacks on their private space. It is a serious weakness that since they are leasing, their enemy has a legal way to be allowed to enter their building to explore. This is a flaw not with just being at the Hyperion, but at anywhere they would like to rent. Angel cannot be sure that this is just a tactic to scare Angel or an actual interest in the Hyperion for another reason besides AI resides there. I can understand the tactical need for Angel to want to keep W&H from the Hyperion from this point forth.

    I agree that Angel wanted to stay at the Hyperion for a personal reason. I think Wesley's comment that vampmogs mentioned is quite telling:


    Are You Now or Have You Ever Been

    Wesley: Angel, surely you more than anyone must appreciate, how for the better part of the last century this place has been host not only to a malevolent demonic presence, but the very worst faces of humanity! This is a house of evil.


    Angel still looking around the hotel: Not anymore.
    Wesley specifically directs the comment to Angel saying he should know. The comment could have easily been said about Angel and his own inner struggle with demon inside if the hotel specific words of place and house were substituted for Angel specific words. I personally appreciate Angel trying to move past his fears, violence, and apathy that have long haunted him.

    In fact, this is such an important but tenuous step for Angel's road to redemption that he quickly becomes discouraged when he isn't able to save Darla's humanity. Angel backslides into a similar apathy, self oriented, lack of caring that he had during his stay at the Hyperion. Only this time he has the opportunity to focus his hate on an external force rather than himself.

    Originally posted by zianna View Post
    If he didn't pay for the hotel, how was he able to get a 6 months lease with an option to buy it? Isn't it obvious that he used that money to get that lease?
    No, it's not obvious. In S1, Angel was most likely leasing the office space and he paid for that in a way without using money he found in S2 in the Hyperion. Also, just because it is a term of six months doesn't mean that it wasn't paid in monthly installments.

    The most likely scenario is that AI does bring in enough money to pay for the business operating expenses. Angel had his last place destroyed, so he had not been making a monthly lease payment for the last 4 months. So right there is some capital.

    The last place was in an office building with other offices, most likely designed for small businesses and high turnover of those businesses so the property holder could make a good profit. I would assume the rent was farly high per square foot.

    The Hyperion had been abandoned and most likely a sinkhole of money for the current property holder. Angel was probably able to make a deal for a reasonable monthly lease payment. The fact he negotiated an "option to buy" means that the property holder did not consider the place valuable, was interested in short term money over long term, or tired of paying property taxes on a property that had provided no income and thought he finally had a sucker to buy it. Or maybe, the owner only wanted to sell and Angel was able to talk him into just a lease which he could afford at the time.

    Regardless of what Angel knows about the hotel now being unhaunted, an appraiser would not take that into consideration when determining the hotel's value. A bank's appraisal of the property has to be equal or more than the mortgage that Angel would have to take out in order to buy the Hyperion. I'm not as familiar with FHA loans but they have their own restrictions that make them harder to obtain although often more cost affordable. This episode was also back when the housing industry was allowing financing to anyone even if it was unlikely they could afford it.



    Originally posted by zianna
    And as far as the "nobody was using it", let me remind you that nobody was using it because it was possessed, occupied by a demon and people were dying. But Angel knew the way to fix it, and he did. I know that this is probably a bad example, but I'll write it just to make you understand my thoughts. It's like a person is possessed by a demon, or chased by one, and Angel finds a way and he kills the demon and then saves the person. And then decides to take over the saved person himself and do whatever he wants with him. Who cares, that person was doomed anyway and had no future and he would have died, so it's not bad for Angel to use him however he wants afterwards, is it?

    Well yes it is. And Angel did the same thing with the hotel. He "saved" it, and then decided its future, and occupied it.
    I strongly disagree with this analogy. I find nothing more heartbreaking than humans being considered by other humans as only material objects. I find the reverse to similarly devaluing of humanity. The hotel is an inanimate object. I find it morally wrong to elevate the hotel to the status of human or any living organism in consideration of its own self identity. It's one thing for a human to want to make something better because it's being used as a coping mechanism for that person in healing their own self. It's another to say, "I can't use this inanimate object because I have emotionally harmed it enough and would continue to emotionally harm it."


    And I totally disagree that the reason he did that was because it meant something for him and because it reminded him of things. Angel, he had said it himself, loved open spaces and big buildings. And when he found one in LA, he grabbed the opportunity. Besides, it's one thing to fight W&H from a lousy dark office, and another thing to fight them from a huge hotel. Prestige as well.
    Honestly, I don't understand how one feeling could preclude having the other. There is no reason why Angel can't have an emotional response and a selfish one at the same time.

    Honestly, the place was a dump and maybe more intimidating for random people to enter than a normal office. They had to put a lot of their own time and money into making the place look better. That is something that the property owner should have done. Instead AI was the one giving the place value.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X