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Your Opinion: Did it go downhill from Season 2?

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  • pfr_77
    replied
    Season two was the only time I consistently enjoyed Angel. Most of my watching was pretty marred by weirdness so I'm giving it another shot over. It's been about a year since I first watched s2 and I just go to it so I'm looking forward to seeing how I respond to everything this time around and hopefully it'll all be a better experience. The last handful of episodes of season 1 were.

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  • buffyholic
    replied
    Yeah, Connor could have been developed more and better, although I never really hated him like so many fans do. I mostly pity him because all he wants is a family. Yes, he annoys at times but I mostly feel sorry for him.

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  • Gemini9857
    replied
    I don't really think the show went downhill after Season 2. I thought Season 3 was pretty good as well. (I really liked the Darla story-line)

    I do agree that Season 4 was the weak link. I don't really have a problem with the Jasmine story arc, but I think it was poorly executed. Connor's character I think could have been done a lot better. I also have a big problem with the retcon that Angel is now two different vampires (Angel vs Angelus) and is not responsible for what he did when he didn't have a soul.

    I think Spike suffered some character regression in Season 5 (he got put back in the role he had on Buffy Seasons 4 & 5). I actually loved the Angel/Spike stuff though and I think it was good that they spent some time together and sort of hashed out some of their problems with each other. They have a really long history together and have a lot of issues with each other, but I think putting them together works.

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  • buffyholic
    replied
    One of my complaints with Spike in season five is that he and Angel seem two idiot and annoying children that instead of entertaining, most of the time annoy.
    The episode "Destiny" did a pretty good job in revealing and developing their relationship throughout the ages.

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  • MikeB
    replied
    Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    I didn't think Spike was annoying in the first part of the season
    I considered him so annoying that, when it aired on TV, I couldn't watch those first episodes.

    Something interesting I think that gives a feel for my viewership of AtS when it aired: I thought that Lindsey MacDonald was the Immortal.

    It's in the second part of the season that he became pointless, when they first came up with a forced "reason" why he was staying thee,
    Well, the reason is because he considered that Buffy still had feelings for Angel and he isn't okay with that. That continues in BtVS S9.

    and then made him nothing but Angel's sidekick
    I don't consider sidekick accurate. They were near equals; it's just that Angel was the leader of the Wolfram and Hart branch and the leader of the Fang Gang. But he's clearly the 'Number 2'. Even in BtVS S7 of BtVS, Spike would be like Buffy's 'outside adviser' or whatever. Spike never had the 'position' in Buffy's Scooby Gang that he had in the Fang Gang.

    (who was suddenly OK with using Wolfram & Hart resources,
    Meaning what? He went on that plane ride. Angel should have been paying him, but it doesn't seem that he did.

    after having criticized Angel and his team for joining them - so add hypocrisy to the mix)
    His criticism revolved around their thinking that they could change Wolfram and Hart.

    and a part of a buddy vampire comedy duo.
    That was good stuff.

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  • TimeTravellingBunny
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
    Are you referring to AtS s5? Why do you think the quality went down? It seems to be the most popular season of AtS.

    Edit: And, obviously, the WB wasn't demanding that they do a bad season.

    My problem with AtS s5 was that they made Spike annoying and that it isn't until Joss's episode "A Whole in the World" that they stopped making Spike annoying.
    I didn't think Spike was annoying in the first part of the season; on the contrary, that was the part of his appearance in AtS that I liked, particularly in episodes like Hell Bound, Destiny and Damage. (And if anyone was annoying in the early season 5, it was Angel.) He had an attitude - and I like my Spike with an attitude - and he had a complicated and dysfunctional relationship with Angel. It's in the second part of the season that he became pointless, when they first came up with a forced "reason" why he was staying thee, and then made him nothing but Angel's sidekick (who was suddenly OK with using Wolfram & Hart resources, after having criticized Angel and his team for joining them - so add hypocrisy to the mix) and a part of a buddy vampire comedy duo.

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  • MikeB
    replied
    Originally posted by sherrilina View Post
    And ugh, well the WB sucks for demanding such a bad season...
    Are you referring to AtS s5? Why do you think the quality went down? It seems to be the most popular season of AtS.

    Edit: And, obviously, the WB wasn't demanding that they do a bad season.

    My problem with AtS s5 was that they made Spike annoying and that it isn't until Joss's episode "A Whole in the World" that they stopped making Spike annoying.
    Last edited by MikeB; 09-09-12, 10:30 PM.

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  • beech
    replied
    Just completed the series. Wow! Angel is a far darker, more adult oriented show than Buffy. At least in my opinion. Such a pity we only got five seasons.

    The return of Spike was sensational. The character change of Wesley was a real trip. Wesley lost his innocence and naivate and handled it poorly. This led to his eventual demise. Which seemed to be his wish and release.
    Fred came about as a surprize but was so adorable one couldn't imagine her away. And then shevdies!!!?? Cold. Very Larry David.
    Gunn was someone who became something I did not expect, but believed. I have seen similar, though less violent changes in people.
    Harmony was always great. In a vaccuos way.
    Cordelia's exit was beneath comtempt, I have to say. That character deserved more and any excuses about the writers dealing with her pregnancy is an insult to the word "professional". They failed badly.

    All in all a fine series. Better than most.

    Leave a comment:


  • Giles
    replied
    I sort of gave up on Angel after season 1. I couldn't get my head around the reasons for the character Doyle being there. He just seemed to be a 'scrappy doo' kind of guy, just inserted into the storyline for 'comedy effect', a bit like Jar jar binks in the Star Wars pre-trilogy... But, having said that I do intend to buy all the Angel seasons on DVD sometime soon and give it another go

    Leave a comment:


  • beech
    replied
    Yet another very interesting thread. I enjoyed the various personal interpretations.

    I am currently finishing season Five. I have enjoyed watching each season. Season 4 for me has been a low point, but still enjoyed it. Connor was annoying. Season 5 has been "curious", and yet strong. Puppet Angel was fantastic.

    I watched the television run years ago but missed several episodes. Nice to see them all finally.

    Leave a comment:


  • sherrilina
    replied
    Lol no, it got better from there! IMO seasons 3 and 4 are the show at its best (though in terms of the "team" at its best then probably late season 2 through season 3 are the golden years), it's after season 5 that the show really went off a cliff in quality....

    So many incredible episodes in both seasons 3 and 4 (the best of the series with ones such as "Lullaby," "Birthday," "Calvary," "Salvage," etc), and some really interesting (in terms of the moral complexities and such they posed) villains in Holt and Jasmine. Season 4 does the apocalypse much better than season 7 BTVS as well, with some really exciting and stunning scenes--and I liked how for a long time each episode picked up right where the other left off, I find that usually makes for a more epic and gripping season on any show.

    Season 1 and 2 had their moments, but s1 was a lot more focused on MOTW, and I didn't like a lot of episodes in s2.

    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    Season 4 was weird because they had to change the plans last minute because CC was pregnant (she had a major role which included fighting.) The original ideas (from what I know at least) were less 'epic'. And season 5 was different because the WB demanded that.
    Yeah, the original idea for Cordy in s4 sounds like true character assassination, so I'm sure glad Charisma's pregnancy evaded that fate...

    And ugh, well the WB sucks for demanding such a bad season...

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunshine Superman
    replied
    Wow! First thread I've contributed to since a post in the Welcome forum just now. I've quickly read through this thread and am impressed by the variety and quality of the contributions and contributors. Differing opinions but all very well argued.

    I wouldn't say the show went downhill after series 2. I will admit that my favourite series are 1, 2, and 5, and I'm not happy at all with the Jasmine, Connor and Holtz characters, but hey! Real life doesn't go the way I want it to at times so why should I expect anything different in the Buffyverse?I did like the Lilah and Wesley arc though and of course Lorne was a great character.

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  • niskaisfact
    replied
    Part of this was the issue with the production team. For Season four they lost David Greenwalt to disgust at his negotiations with Fox over his contract, Whedon and Minear were focusing on Firefly. They hired David Simpkin to take over as show-runner (albeit with final say remaining with Whedon), but just as production beginning, he left over professional differences. That meant they promoted Jeffrey Bell from the writing team to that position. They also brought in Steven DeKnight and David Fury.

    The plus side of all of this was that with fewer writers working on the series, more intense collaboration resulted, according to DeKnight, leading to a more interlinked narratives. If that's not your cup of team, I totally get that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Themb
    replied
    To me, Wesley was the highlight of season 4. I loathed basically the rest of it (though I could never loath anything Fred, so I liked her being the first one to think freely), but Wesley's dark side and determination were really great, albeit very creepy indeed. Also I'm a nut for serial killers, so the idea of him keeping Justine in his closet was very intriguiging (I so hope this does not come out wrong).

    As for Connor and Cordelia, this actually never happened, this is where "Home" works for me

    Leave a comment:


  • MamaBearJZ
    replied
    Seasons one and two were good as was season five. Season three was ok. Season 4 has this ick factor that I can't seem to get past. Wesley sleeping with Lilah, Wesley sleeping with Lilah while Justine was chained up a few feet away ( makes me think of a serial killer) and pretty much everything else Wesley does in that season. Cordy and Connor. Yes I know it wasn't really Cordelia but I still can't get past the fact that she was changing his diapers in season three and then doing the nasty with him in season four. And yes it is nasty. She was like a mother figure to him and he was such a messed up damaged kid to begin with. Then you throw in Angel watching. It's all just too much.

    Leave a comment:

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