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Your Opinion: Did it go downhill from Season 2?

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  • #16
    I read on TV tropes that Cordelia was at one point supposed to wake up and kill Jasmine. I guess that got scrapped when they couldn't get Sarah Michelle Gellar to reprise Buffy for "You're Welcome", and just reworked it to be Cordelia's last appearance.
    325 posts to go til signature

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    • #17
      That can't be right, Connor killed Jasmine long before the episodes for season 5 were planned and written. Cordelia got Buffy's role in YW, you can see that it was a last-minute adjustment because the episodes after YW didn't mention the death of one of the most important Buffyverse characters and only two episodes after that Fred died in a rather similiar way (body stolen by a god). As far as I know there were no plans for Cordelia in season 5.

      It's possible that she was supposed to wake up in season 4, but perhaps it was just an idea? It looks like the writers tried hard to get CC off the show with as little glory as possible. Official statement why she was fired was "Cordelia's story is over", unofficial story was that a bunch of butthurt writers wanted to 'punish' the actress who dared to get pregnant. (Yes I know CC was alo wrong when she didn't mention her pregnancy early on, but on the other side many women don't do that until they passed the 3 months and come on you should be able to deal with these things if you work with married actresses who passed the 30.)
      Last edited by Nina; 04-12-11, 11:38 AM.

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      • #18
        I had heard that Cordy was supposed to wake up and kill Jasmine too. I don't know how close it came to happening, or even why it didn't, but it was definitely under serious consideration at one point.
        - "The earth is doomed" -

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        • #19
          Originally posted by kana View Post
          For me, Season 2 and 3 were the best. Angel's descent into darkness and the Holtz storyline were great and they were the most consistent Seasons.
          I really liked the second season, but the first has gotta be my absolute favorite. Doyle was such an awesome character, especially with the pincushion-demon aspect. What I don`t get is why he was killed off?
          My sig will not change again 'till I get 400 posts and become a BuffyForums VIP!

          Want, take, have! - Faith Lehane

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Drusilla View Post
            I really liked the second season, but the first has gotta be my absolute favorite. Doyle was such an awesome character, especially with the pincushion-demon aspect. What I don`t get is why he was killed off?
            i understand that Glenn Quinn (actor who played Doyle) was fired from the show because of his addiction to heroin. a terrible shame.

            Spike: "She's evil, you gormless tit!"
            Angel: "Did you call me a tit?"

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            • #21
              i loved all of angel. it had its ups and downs of course but for me there was no drop off in quality over the course of it's run. it obviously threw things into chaos when charisma carpenter got pregnant and in my minds eye i can almost see the writers scurrying around trying to weave that into the storyline

              i really liked season 5 particularly tho. just a couple of the things that made it good for me;

              Spike came back and with him a much needed injection of the funnies.
              And on the flip side of the emotional coin, what happens with Fred and Wes. my god, im a grown man and i cried a river!
              what else? ah yes, angel's a muppet, Illyria (oh my word!), goody goody gunn gets a lesson in humility, Lorne's dark surprise... the list goes on.
              season 5 is a full on rollercoaster ride and i loved it. the only fault i can find with it (apart from the usual niggling technical stuff) is that it's contains within it last ever buffyverse tv show and so it makes me feel depressed for a while after ive watched it.

              Spike: "She's evil, you gormless tit!"
              Angel: "Did you call me a tit?"

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              • #22
                I completely love Angel as a muppet! It´s just so funny!

                But like I mentioned before, one of main problems with season 5 and it´s the reason why it´s not my number one season is because of its first half. Very uneven and Fred and Wesley seemed like they regress.

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                • #23
                  I think Willow should have been added to Season 5 since Buffy was done anyway, and (at the time) there were plans of continuing the series (Angel). Besides Angel never had an official magical user, just some who occasionally dabbled in it.
                  325 posts to go til signature

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by buffyholic View Post
                    I completely love Angel as a muppet! It´s just so funny!
                    Lol! indeed BH. Bits that particularly crack me up are when Fred first sees him and ruffles his hair and then those little stick on scars he gets from Nina and of course Spike's reaction to it all. priceless

                    Spike: "She's evil, you gormless tit!"
                    Angel: "Did you call me a tit?"

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                    • #25
                      As for Charisma Carpenter being off the show:

                      They had to rework a lot of the season to accommodate Cordy being pregnant because they didn’t know they would have had to deal with a pregnancy. And then Charisma very vocally complained about the Cordy/Connor thing.

                      But for AtS season 5, they couldn’t afford CC anyways unless James Marsters was willing to play third-lead and willing to not work for much compared to what he got paid in Season 7. Cordy was second lead and therefore it was likely that she’d have to be paid more than James. The producers or whoever didn’t even want to pay David Boreanaz more than James but had to because of SAG rules; therefore, David’s salary skyrocketed.



                      TimeTravellingBunny

                      Angel in BtVS dusted Darla for trying to kill Buffy. And he never had much of a reaction to doing that. But then AtS has Angel having sex dreams of Darla and him seeming to be in love with Darla. I take the whole Angel/Darla thing from Angel’s side to be because of Jasmine.

                      Right, because it makes no sense that the woman Angel spent 150 years with meant a lot to him. And Angel having another important woman in his life that he knew long before Buffy was even born is so "insulting" to Angel's relationship to his ex-girlfriend Buffy. Or it's insulting that he was "cheating" on his ex that had moved on and found another boyfriend? Or something...
                      I’m curious: would you be fine if in Season 9 Spike got back with Drusilla? Because that’d make far more sense than Angel/Darla did in AtS season 2 and 3 before we learned about Jasmine.

                      My quote: Angel lavishing money on Connor and Cordelia while Buffy is having to work fast food.

                      Yes, really, what kind of a person spends money on his son and his friends, rather than an ex-girlfriend who lives in another town and that he sees once a year and likely would be offended by him offering money to her?
                      A person who doesn’t care that much about that ex-girlfriend. (I also blame this and Angel/Cordelia on Jasmine.) Buffy wouldn’t be offended. If anything, she’d probably be offended that Angel is getting rich off his abilities.


                      Hmm, this isn’t a good description:

                      The elevator bell rings, Gunn steps out.
                      FRED
                      You look... did they make you taller?
                      GUNN
                      I'm doing this. Hope it's not just me, but if it is, that's all right, too.
                      WESLEY
                      As much as it pains me to admit it, there's probably a great deal we could accomplish with the resources available here.
                      FRED
                      (looks at Wesley) I can't believe it. Are—are you saying we should take the deal?
                      ANGEL
                      I already took it.
                      FRED
                      Angel, what—what?
                      WESLEY
                      You took the deal?
                      ANGEL
                      Executive decision.
                      WESLEY
                      I didn't think you'd—

                      http://buffyworld.com/angel/transcripts/088_tran.html Fred didn’t want to join Wolfram and Hart. And Angel had signed all of them up already.

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                      • #26
                        I don't know if I'd say "downhill," but the show definitely went to a very dark place for seasons 3 and 4. I have always had a hard time watching the episodes of Wes's apostasy. His arc is one of the most rewarding character developments in the Buffyverse, I think.

                        I do love him with Lilah, though.

                        Season 4 is probably my least favorite season -- I felt that the whole unraveling of Cordelia's character was pretty shoddy, though there is an explanation for it.
                        I know I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by MikeB
                          Angel in BtVS dusted Darla for trying to kill Buffy. And he never had much of a reaction to doing that. But then AtS has Angel having sex dreams of Darla and him seeming to be in love with Darla. I take the whole Angel/Darla thing from Angel’s side to be because of Jasmine.
                          Mike, I've always found it to be a cop out how you blame everything you don't like on Jasmine. If Angel's feelings towards Darla are simply a product of Jasmine's meddling then that renders large chunks of AtS completely meaningless. If we are going to go down that route, then maybe Angel's lack of reaction after killing Darla in BtVS was also due to Jasmine's meddling. Maybe all the horrible things Angelus did to Drusilla were Jasmine's fault too. This sword cuts both ways. Jasmine has been around since the beginning of time, she hasn't just been around since AtS season 1. If you are going to attribute entire seasons worth of character development to Jasmine, then you should include the BtVS seasons and the historical flashbacks too. I get it, you don't like Angel and you would like to chalk dismiss canon that you don't like as "it was Jasmine's fault." I think that's a cop out and it opens to door to claim that anything could have been because of Jasmine.

                          Now, regarding Angel's feelings over Darla in BtVS season 1 versus AtS season 2, that's because back in BtVS Darla wasn't an especially important character. In AtS, she was. Her relationship with Angel wasn't a big deal -until the writers wanted to explore that and say that it was. The writers are free to do that. Originally, the last Slayer that Spike killed "begged for her life" until the writers wanted to make Nikki Wood into an actual character. Originally, Angel never killed anyone after he got a soul, until the writers decided it would be more interesting if he killed during the Boxer Rebellion. Originally werewolves didn't revert back to human form after being killed, then the writers decided that now they do. As of BtVS season 1, Giles had minimal experience with magic... until season two when they introduced his "Ripper" side. Then that side of him was pushed back further in season 9. Small retcons and inconsistencies often happen in fiction and we've just got to roll with it.

                          And as for Darla in BtVS season 1: even then, Angel only staked her when Buffy's life was in immediate danger. When she showed up at his apartment he didn't stake her like he might a common vampire. I think its worth noting that even in BtVS, way back before the writers had any idea about Darla's resurrection and Angel's later relationship with her, even then, they ONLY had Angel kill Darla when she was immediately threatening Buffy's life. I don't think its a stretch to guess that she meant something to Angel. And who knows, maybe Angel mourned her in private after the episode was over. We don't know how he felt afterwards because the show didn't care to show us. What would you expect Angel to do, break down in front of Buffy and give a speech about emotional it was for him to kill Darla?

                          I’m curious: would you be fine if in Season 9 Spike got back with Drusilla? Because that’d make far more sense than Angel/Darla did in AtS season 2 and 3 before we learned about Jasmine.
                          I don't see how that would make "far more sense". But yeah, if you want to make Drusilla human, give her a soul, put Spike through some kind of trials to help Drusilla out, then take Spike's character to a place where he's filled with doubt, put enormous pressure on him and have him hook up with Drusilla in a moment of personal weakness and despair, then yeah I could buy Spike/Drusilla in season 9. It would feel like a cheap rehash of Angel's story, but if the season 9 wants to earn Spike/Drusilla like AtS season 2 earned Angel/Darla, I would buy it. I would think it to be an unoriginal direction for the story to go in, but if season 9 wants to go to the great lengths AtS season 2 did to set up a dark romance I could roll with it. I wouldn't buy into the idea of Spike hooking up with Drusilla again just because you think its a cool ship and disregard Spike's personal moral growth unless the story earns it. If the story wants to take Spike in that direction there has to be a reason. That said, of course Spike is still going to care for her on some level.

                          Angel lavishing money on Connor and Cordelia while Buffy is having to work fast food. [...] A person who doesn’t care that much about that ex-girlfriend.
                          Okay, this one is freaking ridiculous. I can tell that you don't have kids. A close friend of mine is getting ready to be a new father. Do you think his time and energy should go towards the baby, or do you think it should be a higher priority for him to look after all his ex-girlfriends first, and make sure none of his exes have to work jobs that they don't enjoy? What would you do if you had a baby that needed looking after? How the hell is Buffy's financial situation any of Angel's concern? I believe this idea that it's Angel's responsibility to look after Buffy's finances instead of baby Connor and his own staff is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen you suggest. It makes it into your top ten, easy.

                          One of my exes works at McDonalds. I could be supporting her but instead I would rather light cigars off hundred dollar bills and swim around in my Scrooge McDuck swimming pool of gold coins. And that's my right because it's my money. I didn't earn my money by risking my life fighting monsters either and I don't have a baby on the way.

                          If Buffy wants Angel to support her so badly, why wouldn't she just ask? Why do you assume that Angel even knows what her financial situation is like? Not that it's his responsibility anyway...

                          I do feel a little jealous of your exes though Mike, I assume they must be very well looked after?

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                          • #28
                            I have to admit I enjoyed the first two seasons more - and maybe early season three. I guess I don't enjoy the gloomy, dark air surrounding the rest of S3 and S4. I like S5, but not as much as S1 and S2. I hated Lindsey's return, I hated Illyria, I hated that Cordelia was only in one episode, I hated the way Angel regressed because with Spike being around he was suddenly in love with Buffy again, I hated that Nina didn't have a bigger role, I think they could have dealt with the Gunn storyline better - it was interesting, but I never got the feeling that Gunn felt useless and left out before but maybe I'm wrong on this one. I've only watched AtS once.

                            So, while I have issues with S5, I do think it was an improvement after S4 and far more refreshing with the new setting, Spike joining the cast, and Connor coming back.
                            Made by Trickyboxes
                            Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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                            • #29
                              After re-watching season 5, (I mentioned this in the "You're Welcome Buffy/Corelia thread") the finality of the series seems more obvious at season five after watching it all the way through. The plots/relationships/characters that were rushed for time constraints and what not. I really enjoyed the fight scene between Lindsey and Angel in "YW", and Cordelia gave us some of her best lines too; "I know my rights, I want to see a lawyer". I felt like the end result of the cancellation/scheduling conflicts with Alyson Hannigan caused the Illyria storyline to more or less become a light rehashing of the Evil-Cordelia/Jasmine plot. Only this time we have someone who was arguably "cooler", was more arguably more powerful than any "god" featured in either Ats or Btvs and she displayed her god-like powers as proof (unlike others who were physically stronger than demons and could play mind tricks on people by using glamours and veils).

                              Now after seeing the whole series (I finally got to see "City of" all the way to "Not fade away") and I don't necessarily think the series went downhill (or jumped the shark) after season 2. I think some really great ideas were thought up by Joss and the other writes that had some potential for really great episodes, however scheduling conflicts, time constraints, and other unforeseen issues caused a majority of these ideas to be shelved, making them "what ifs". I love hypotheticals, I really enjoy thinking about what could of been if so & so had done it differently, but you can't judge the series on what ifs alone - I still think that the series had room to grow, but I can also see where people think it's time was over (with Cordelia gone, Wess gone, Fred gone, Buffy & co not coming back, etc) that there was really nothing left to be told (for TV anyway). As for season 6 and onward, I haven't had the chance to read the comics yet but from what I've seen they look interesting enough and would've been cool to see it all on TV again.
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                              • #30
                                It didn´t jump the shark, imo. I just think it went through some ups and downs like every show. The ups were really high sometimes but the downs unfortunately were really low at times. But I also think that comes from trying something new.

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