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Your Opinion: Did it go downhill from Season 2?

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  • Your Opinion: Did it go downhill from Season 2?

    I recently had the chance to watch Seasons 1 - 2 and am currently at the veery begining of 4. And I'm wondering if anyone else thinks that maybe the direction of the series went somewhat downhill after the second season? I thought the first season was excellent, I really enjoyed Kate Lockley's character and the early episodes of the first two seasons just struck me as being of really good quality and well-written and didn't seem to lack focus. Come late season 3/early season 4 you have the business with Holtz being wrapped up finally, Connor is banished from the hotel, Cordelia ascends but then returns as someone completely different, and then a beast shows up to end the world but was actually just a cover for "Jasmine" who was really pulling the plot strings from all along. Maybe it's just me but it seems like they might have lost focus around the time Cordy disappeared and then returned, so many different many subplots/plot points and a character who ultimately appeared to be more or less useless except for the creation of earthbound Jasmine.
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  • #2
    I do like season 4, but in my opinion it went downhill after season 3. Season 2 & 3 really had ideas behind it, people often say that Angel whines too much and that he is all about redemption, but you see that season 2 & 3 were stepping away from that part of Angel. In season 2 he realised that he is fighting because he wants to and that redemption is not that important anymore and in season 3 he grows further as a person when he becomes a father and how he deals with Holtz. He even becomes the 'man' and Holtz 'the beast'. Season 4 was weird because they had to change the plans last minute because CC was pregnant (she had a major role which included fighting.) The original ideas (from what I know at least) were less 'epic'. And season 5 was different because the WB demanded that.

    And perhaps it's not true, but after season 3 both Minear and Greenwalt left as showrunners and I did always see these two men as the big force behind season 1, 2 & 3.
    Last edited by Nina; 25-11-11, 09:19 AM.

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    • #3
      For me, Season 2 and 3 were the best. Angel's descent into darkness and the Holtz storyline were great and they were the most consistent Seasons.

      That said, there are some great moments in Season 4. I may be the cat amongst the pidgeons but I liked the concept of Jasmine, even if the execution was clumsey and whilst Season 5 was a bit 'wonky' to say the least, it was a very accessible season. A lot of part time Ats viewers, I find tend to like it more and find it easier get into, although prior seasons, I think, are more rewarding, arc wise.

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      • #4
        I don´t know if it went downhill but the quality declined a bit season 3 onwards and the most part had to do with the assassination of Cordelia Chase. The writers completely screwed up the character.

        The way I see it is:
        Season 1 - awesome and I love it;
        Season 2 - awesome and my number one;
        Season 3 - I like it but it had potential for more;
        Season 4 - I like it a lot even though it has some major flaws;
        Season 5 - I love it and my second favorite season;

        ATS had a lot of ups and downs, imo.

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        • #5
          S3 is my favorite season, and I think the show went downhill after that, but I don't think it had anything to do with poor writing or ideas, but rather the struggle and scramble to change the storyline of S4 after Charisma's pregnancy was announced.

          You can really see and sense the chaos that surrounded that season as they tried to rethink their approach and what the season would entail.
          Para Bellum| Live Journal | Tumblr | Resources

          Si vis pacem, para bellum

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          • #6
            I wonder for Season 4 if the Beast was supposed to be the true big bad or if that was when they were going to have Doyle be revealed as the bad before Glenn Quinn died?
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            • #7
              Cordelia was supposed to be the big bad, the whole set-up in season 3 for the Cordelia/Angel OTT romance was to make the Angel vs. Cordelia fight in season 4 more heartbreaking. (I guess all the writers learn at writer school that Romance >> Friendships.) If I remember correctly Cordelia was so mad at the PTB/everything after ascending to heaven that she turned evil or something. No idea about the original plans for the Beast, Angelus and Connor...

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              • #8
                Season 4 has many, many flaws but everytime I rewatch it, I like it a bit better than the previous time because there are some great episodes where the writers took risks. We also have a sense of doom and gloom which I love and Wesley/Lilah.

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                • #9
                  I don't think Angel ever went downhill but it certainly had a few blips along the way. The way I see it, a Series that has 22 episodes always has certain episodes are not as good as the others but overall, the Series as a whole in Angel remained consistent in my view. Series 3 and 5 are not as good as the others, Series 4 is my fave but at no point did I ever think the show had taken a dive. It was as good in the last episode as it was at the beginning.

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                  • #10
                    I consider season 1 to be the best season of AtS. A lot of good episodes. The Spike, Buffy, and Faith episodes are all great (even though I will never like that "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08)) in the end is pretty much simply there to show Buffy and Angel together as it had zero consequence on BtVS).

                    Season 2 I have the problem that they said they used Drusilla on AtS instead of on BtVS in order to boost AtS's ratings. But then they had Dru playing second fiddle to Darla. There seemed to be a lot more story if Dru was on BtVS instead. Like Spike choosing Buffy over Dru would have been a lot more interesting. But "Reunion" (2.10?) and "Redifinition" (2.11?) are some of the best AtS episodes. I really didn't like the Angel/Darla stuff as it simply made no sense and it was very insulting to Buffy/Angel.

                    Season 3: Darla being pregnant. Cordelia making pregnant Darla out to be the victim. Connor existing. Angel lavishing money on Connor and Cordelia while Buffy is having to work fast food. Pretty much the whole season is bad.

                    Season 4: Would have been about perfect if not for no one noticing that Cordelia is now 'fat' and no one being suspicious of Cordelia even though she's acting very suspicious a lot of the time. Faith is great. Angelus is made more pathetic than the AtS already made him.

                    Season 5: I didn't like that they Gunn seem a bad guy for accepting the super lawyer powers. Gunn is a bright guy who given different circumstances could have become a lawyer. Him and Fred are the only ones from the Fang Gang who didn't come from privilege. And Fred was able to go to school. They made Spike really annoying in the beginning episodes. Angel is a complete d-bag with Spike. Angel tries his hardest to keep Spike from Buffy including seemingly seriously complementing destroying Ghost Spike. And Angel doesn't give Spike a place to stay. Fred is killed when she was the one who didn't want to join Wolfram and Hart. Wesley gets redemption which is great. Angel's plan against Wolfram and Hart was the worst ever and would have resulted in Buffy and Co. needed to clean up the Army mess. Illyria is great.


                    Season 1 is the best for me and it's the one that's most like BtVS in that it uses the supernatural to deal with 'real world' issues. AtS did deal well with Corporate America through Wolfram and Hart. But it just made no sense that Angel could afford the Hyperion and the lifestyles he gave Angel and Co. And Angel being able to run the Headquarters of Wolfram and Hart -- or at least the flagship branch -- also makes no sense. I didn't like the Angel/Darla thing or Angel being able to have a child. I never liked the Shanshu thing because Angel never deserved a reward. He was bad in life, bad through most of his time as a vampire, and he's only good because he wants to be with Buffy.


                    And I didn't like that they never covered up Charisma's back tattoo yet besides in like "Once More With Feeling" (6.07) and the beginning episodes of Season 7, they always covered up SMG's tats.

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                    • #11
                      I feel one of the reasons Season 4 kinda failed is because it´s extremely hard to run the Apocalypse theme throughout all 22 episodes. You have to have a pretty good plot to sustain the tension and suspense of that.

                      And, season 1 rocks!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                        I really didn't like the Angel/Darla stuff as it simply made no sense and it was very insulting to Buffy/Angel.
                        Right, because it makes no sense that the woman Angel spent 150 years with meant a lot to him. And Angel having another important woman in his life that he knew long before Buffy was even born is so "insulting" to Angel's relationship to his ex-girlfriend Buffy. Or it's insulting that he was "cheating" on his ex that had moved on and found another boyfriend? Or something...
                        Angel lavishing money on Connor and Cordelia while Buffy is having to work fast food.
                        Yes, really, what kind of a person spends money on his son and his friends, rather than an ex-girlfriend who lives in another town and that he sees once a year and likely would be offended by him offering money to her?

                        Fred is killed when she was the one who didn't want to join Wolfram and Hart.
                        What are you talking about? She did want to, and she did join it, just as Gunn, Wesley and Lorne did.
                        You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                        • #13
                          I really do like Season 4 in all actuality...up until Jasmine pops up (nothing against Gina Torres). Was I alone in not noticing that Cordelia was posessed? I mean sure she wasn't loud/hey look @ me/sassy 24/7 like she usually was and seemed more stoic and somber but I just figured (at first) that it was because a lot was going on (plus character growth) and she wanted to be/look strong for Connor who didn't have a mom. Then Jasmine screws our minds even further by pulling more buffyspeak/vintage Cordelia lines to make it seem like Cordy is just Cordy. Beyond her obviously killing Lilah, which I wonder if it has anything to do with her noticing "Cordelia's new powers" (aka force pushing Angelus to the back of the cage) and of course making out with the Beast (cannot unsee), she seemed more or less like Cordelia.
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                          • #14
                            I knew something was up with Cordy the second she ran from Angel and moved in with Connor. The Cordelia we knew would never have ran from Angel when there was something going on. This was the girl who said that Angel was her priority. Sleeping with Connor just cemented that something wasn't right.
                            Para Bellum| Live Journal | Tumblr | Resources

                            Si vis pacem, para bellum

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                            • #15
                              The Jasmine storyline was very interesting even though it´s poorly executed; But it´s very interesting. I mean, have Angel and company fight world peace? Awesome.

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