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  • #16
    I prefer Spuffy, but I still love Bangel as well.

    Is it possible to love both?
    "Party in my eye socket and everyone's invited!"

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    • #17
      Of course, as I love both. I much prefer Spuffy to be perfectly honest, but I think it's because the brutality of their relationship entertained me more.
      .Forever, That's The Whole Point...

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Osiris1803 View Post
        I'm not saying the situation was the same, because of course it wasn't. I just mean there probably would have been another heartbreaking reason as to why they couldn't work. Don't get me wrong I loved Bangel, but I'm glad the shows moved on from it.
        Well, that's the problem with Bangel. The repetitiveness, the lack of genuine exploration of the relationship, the constant assumptions that we're supposed to make that they're this "forever love" just based on big dramatic proclamations. "Oh and then there was another heartbreaking reason why they couldn't be together". Which one? Did they even want to be together? If yes, why that time since they weren't trying to be together for over a year and a half before? It's lame storytelling.

        Originally posted by Iwantthefireback View Post
        I prefer Spuffy, but I still love Bangel as well.

        Is it possible to love both?
        If you mean "is it possible to love Bangel in early seasons and Spuffy in late seasons", then yes, and I think a lot of people do. If you mean "is it possible to love Bangel as Forever Love and also love Spuffy", I don't believe so.

        I loved Bangel in the early seasons back in the day, and I still enjoy it in my rewatch, especially in seasons 1 and 2, less so in season 3. (Though it gets really schmaltzy at times; for instance, in my rewatch I really liked it in What's My Line 1/2 but in Surprise there was just too much crying and dramatics when the situation wasn't that dramatic yet). With the disclaimer that, even when I used to ship them, I never thought they were some perfect pairing that were just right and meant for each other and the cruel world wouldn't let them be together.

        I despise what Bangel turned into subsequently, when the fandom and media such as Entertainment Weekly started calling them soulmates, forever love, one true love and all that cheesy stuff, and when it became the party line that the writers had to pay lip service from time to time (when they weren't mocking it as in Fredless) despite actually having Buffy and Angel move on and choose to lead completely separate lives (yes, choose - it's not like anyone forced that on them). A pretty big gap opened between what was actually going on on screen and what was being said by the shippers and the EW articles. It started looking like a fantasy that both Buffy and Angel would return to when things were going wrong for them and when their other relationships were failing. It's a kind of fantasy that people often like to cling to in a real world as well - that their first love would last forever, and that a failed relationship from the past was an ideal romance just because it never got to really develop and be really tested in the real world. It's easy to believe that "if only we could be together, everything would be perfect, but alas, the world just won't let us" when in fact you aren't trying to make it happen.

        It certainly looked that way in season 7 when Buffy made that over-the-top claim (yeah, she was trying to make a point to Xander, but still) that she "loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life", like she was psychic and could know whether, how much and who she'll love in the future. Many Bangels seem to adore that line, while I saw it as proving my suspicion that Buffy didn't want to love anyone with that intensity again (and that includes Angel, she talked about her love for him in past tense) because she didn't want to go through all that pain again (not that she would admit that to herself). Like someone said, she walked around wearing her broken heart as a shield. But I still had respect for their relationship and believed that they could still be close and loved each other, despite not being in love with each anymore. End of Days/Chosen put an end to that, season 5 of AtS made it all the worse, and season 8 wrecked it completely.

        Originally posted by Osiris1803 View Post
        Of course, as I love both. I much prefer Spuffy to be perfectly honest, but I think it's because the brutality of their relationship entertained me more.
        I prefer Spuffy because it actually explored what love is about and relied on "show, don't tell" mode of storytelling, rather than on characters making proclamations "X and Y love each other."

        The lack of this is why the execution of Angel/Cordelia sucked - the writers thought the best way to develop their relationship romantically was to have Wesley and Fred make proclamations about the two of them being perfect for each other due to Cordelia becoming a hero and something called "kyrumption" or whatever?
        Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 15-10-11, 06:42 PM.
        You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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        • #19
          I prefer Spuffy because it actually explored what love is about and relied on "show, don't tell" mode of storytelling, rather than on characters making proclamations "X and Y love each other. TIME TRAVELLING BUNNY

          And I am glad for you. IMO, Buffy and Angel already "recognized" what you enjoy as process and the point of B/A is THE END of DUALITY in why they are "shown" opposite in every way, but LOVE itself is WHO they are. Why Joss says they are the Unattainable Ideal BECAUSE of "duality" aka POV. BTW, the LOVE I am talking about is usually called "the void." It has no gender or being/not being; it is beyond space/time. A person can "comprehend" this and "walk" in the world, the point to show such paths to it, but no way to make anyone "get it." The practical point of all this is "to end suffering, the attachment to pain that itself IS suffering).

          Their separation is in "belonging to the world" and NOT to themselves. THe end of duality actually means "no self." THAT is what Twilight is about. It is impossible to represent as symbols make concrete what it is not. I think that is why "attainable" is my arugment with Joss.

          I suppose you can look at all of this as an arch of rising up and going down, as beginning, middle and end OR as a rise and going down, (even a fall, or "sudden" attainment)--like stairs maybe in how we live and how OR WHAT gets "renewal" after the cost of some "death."

          HUGS!
          sybil
          Last edited by sybil; 15-10-11, 08:29 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
            Yeah right, there was so much danger in Angel, or anyone else, becoming perfectly happy from being around Buffy as she was in season 6.
            Ha!

            To be honest having just read the synopsis from I Will Remember You (I acknowledge not the same as having watched it) I find it hard to see how Angel could ever face her and claim to still love her when he knows he wouldn't choose her over his own desire for redemption. I think he has a bloomin nerve to ever enter into her life again and every interaction with her, if he remembers what happened which I believe he does, is false.

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            • #21
              Well, some of us read the part that he believed she would die sooner, and that he was a noble thing to give up every bit of happiness he ever knew to take on the (hated) burden of his immortality, the thing he was dying to be rid of. He also does not believe that his redemption can be something someone else "hands" to him, but is something he has to earn, EVEN though he knows he never will, and completely understands he will be damned because of it. Which is too bad, as Spike understood the idea "can't change the past, but you can learn from it"--which also suggests Spike is just as "blind to himself" as is Angel, in that he is STILL a vampire who struggles with all these things driving him to (reclaim) his own humanity that also prevents him from having "perfect joy" and he struggles between redemption and damnation himself.

              Just sayin'
              HUGS!
              sybil

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              • #22
                Originally posted by sybil View Post
                Well, some of us read the part that he believed she would die sooner, and that he was a noble thing to give up every bit of happiness he ever knew to take on the (hated) burden of his immortality, the thing he was dying to be rid of. He also does not believe that his redemption can be something someone else "hands" to him, but is something he has to earn, EVEN though he knows he never will, and completely understands he will be damned because of it. Which is too bad, as Spike understood the idea "can't change the past, but you can learn from it"--which also suggests Spike is just as "blind to himself" as is Angel, in that he is STILL a vampire who struggles with all these things driving him to (reclaim) his own humanity that also prevents him from having "perfect joy" and he struggles between redemption and damnation himself.

                Just sayin'
                HUGS!
                sybil
                But the moment Angel chose to return to his 'redemption' story (he can redeem himself by good actions as a human by the way) he should have stopped stepping into Buffy's life because he knows that he could have been with her and he chose not to be. I don't believe, as you know, the whole overarching duality romance angle, I think it is a destructive and tragic fantasy but he had the reality and didn't want it, the fact that he knows this and she doesn't mocks her and makes his actions with her in S8 deplorable, as if they weren't already. Whether they would ever have worked as a long-term 'real' couple is an entirely different argument but it isn't the same as Spike who has more of a realistic, less dramatised sense of his own redemption and, importantly for Spuffy, the worth of love.

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                • #23
                  To be honest having just read the synopsis from I Will Remember You (I acknowledge not the same as having watched it) I find it hard to see how Angel could ever face her and claim to still love her when he knows he wouldn't choose her over his own desire for redemption. I think he has a bloomin nerve to ever enter into her life again and every interaction with her, if he remembers what happened which I believe he does, is false.
                  So you haven't watched IWRY then? I don't know what the synopsis said but there's no way imo to watch the episode and come away with the thought that Angel acted out of anything but selfless love for Buffy. The text from the episode even says it.

                  Angel: "She'll die? - Then I'm here to beg for her life."

                  The Oracles turn and walk away: "It is not our place to grant life or death."

                  Angel: "And I ask you to take mine back. (The oracles stop walking and turn back to him) Look I can't protect her or anyone this way, not as a man."

                  Woman: "You're asking to be what you were, a demon with a soul, because of the Slayer?"

                  Man turns to leave again: "Oh, this is a matter of love. It does not concern us."

                  Angel: "Yes, it does. The Mohra demon came to take a warrior from your cause - and it succeeded. I'm no good to you like this. I know you have it in your power to make this right.
                  Please."

                  Man: "What is done can not be undone."

                  Woman: "What is not yet done can be avoided."

                  Man: "Temporal folds are not to indulge at - the whims of lower beings."

                  Woman: "You are wrong. This one is willing to sacrifice every drop of human happiness and love he has ever known for another. He is not a lower being."


                  I'd refer you also to the episode "Hero".

                  Cordy: So what? Buffy blows into to town and puts you into a permanent funk (Elevator goes down) and I'm just supposed to stand by and watch our business go belly up?"

                  Cut to Angel working out against a punching bag.
                  Doyle: "Hey. Is this a private catharsis or can anyone watch?"

                  Angel still punching the bag: "What do you want?"

                  Doyle: "Well, there's a girl upstairs who's not quite sad enough to cry in may arms, but keep up the dark cloud. I might get lucky."

                  Angel punching: "I just need some time."

                  Doyle: "Believe me I know. Last time I saw my ex, she was around for five minutes and I was a wreck for days. Amazing how they can do that to you."

                  Angel quits punching: "Buffy was here for more then five minutes."

                  Doyle: "Okay, 10, but who's counting?"

                  Angel sits down on the sofa: "Actually she was here for a whole day and night."

                  Doyle: "Alright. One of us has been drinking and I’m sad to say, it's not me."

                  Angel wipes his face with a towel and gets back up: "Who are the Oracles, Doyle? Why didn't you tell me about them before?"

                  Doyle: "The Oracles? Who told you about the Oracles?"

                  Angel: "The first time the Mohra demon attacked it got away."

                  Doyle: "What first time?"

                  Angel: "Look, I tracked it, I killed it, some of its blood mixed with mine. It made me mortal. That's when you took me to see the Oracles to find out what it meant."

                  Doyle: "No, see, I'm going remember a trip to the netherworld of eternal watching. That's just not something that happens every day."

                  Angel sits down in a chair: "The Oracles told me that I was released from my duty. Buffy and I were together until - we realized it couldn't be. - We don't belong to ourselves. We belong to the world, fighting. - So, I went back to the Oracles and I asked them to turn back the clock... as though that day had never happened."

                  Doyle: "Human. You were a real live flesh-and-blood human - and you and Buffy... You had the one thing in your unnaturally long life and you gave it back?!"

                  Angel: "Maybe I was wrong?"

                  Doyle: "Or maybe Cordelia was right about you being the real deal in the hero department. See, I would have chosen the pleasures of the flesh over duty and honor any day of the week. I just don't have that strength.'

                  Angel: "You never know your strength until you're tested."

                  Doyle: "Come on, you lived and loved and lost and fought and vanquished inside a day, and I'm still trying to work up the courage to ask Cordy out for dinner, not to mention the part about telling her that I'm half demon. - That should probably come first, huh?"

                  Angel: "Well, the Oracles said something bad is coming. 'Soldier of Darkness ushering in the end of days' kind of bad."

                  Doyle: "So much for the security of long-term savings bonds, huh?"

                  Angel: "I feel something coming, Doyle. I don't know what, but I know we're a part of it."

                  Doyle: "Well, if it's a fight they want - can't someone else give it to them? "It seems unfair, you know? You gotta save all the helpless types around here and now you've got to fight the apocalypse as well?"

                  Angel gets up: "It's all the same thing. Fight the good fight - whichever way you can."

                  Doyle: "Tell you what, you fight - and I’ll keep score."


                  There's not a single word of text pointing to Angel acting out of a need for redemption. The text is very clear that the "end of days" is coming, and that because of that Buffy will die sooner. Buffy doesn't remember but she understood why Angel did what he did.

                  Angel: "I went to see the Oracles. I asked them to turn me back."

                  Buffy: "What? - Why?"

                  Angel: "Because more then ever I know how much I love you."
                  Buffy backs away from him: "No. No, you didn't."

                  Angel follows her: "And if I stayed mortal one of us would wind up dead, maybe both of us. You heard what Mohra said."

                  (Mohra: "The end of days has begun and can’t be stopped. For anyone of us that falls, *ten* shall rise." ...."A great darkness is coming." ....."Together you were powerful. Alone, you are dead. )

                  Buffy: "Mohra is dead. We killed him."

                  Angel: "He said others would come."

                  Buffy: "They always come. And they always will. But that's my problem now, not yours, remember?"

                  Angel: "No, I won't just stand by and let you fight, maybe die, alone."

                  Buffy: "Then we fight together."

                  Angel: "You saw what happened last night. If anything I'm a liability to you. You take chances to protect me, and that's not just bad for you, it's bad for the people we were meant to help."

                  Buffy: "So what? You just took a whole 24 hours to weigh the ups and downs of being a regular Joe and decided it was more fun being a superhero?"

                  Angel: "You know that's not it. How can we be together if the cost is your life, or the lives of
                  others?
                  (Buffy just stares at him and after a moment he takes her into his arms) I know. I couldn't tell you. I wasn't sure - if I could do it if I woke up with you one more morning."

                  Buffy sniffling: "I understand. - So, what happens now?'

                  Angel: "The Oracles are giving us back the day, turning back time, so I can kill Mohra before his blood makes me mortal."
                  Avatar by Destructo Girl

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by bonnaleah View Post
                    Angel sits down in a chair: "The Oracles told me that I was released from my duty. Buffy and I were together until - we realized it couldn't be. - We don't belong to ourselves. We belong to the world, fighting. - So, I went back to the Oracles and I asked them to turn back the clock... as though that day had never happened."
                    I never understood why Angel blatantly lied to Doyle here.
                    "Gunn dies, Illyria Survives, Spike shanshus, Angel looses an arm and Xander looses an arm too, which is odd because he wasn't even there."
                    Joss Whedon at the High Stakes convention - 2004

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                    • #25
                      I never understood why Angel blatantly lied to Doyle here.
                      I don't know, I guess on the surface it might seem like a lie...however when the totality of the text is considered together I believe it's a pretty good summation .

                      Buffy as the slayer has a duty to protect the world...Angel as a champion of the PTB also had a duty to protect the world...End of Days was coming, meaning a sooner death for Buffy....Buffy takes chances to protect human Angel, putting the lives of the ones they were both meant to protect at risk....together they were powerful, alone they are dead...(together as in "fighting as a team" even if separately)....How then can they be together if the cost is Buffy's life...or other lives? Buffy understood and she did realize that they belonged to the world....Angel just realized it sooner.
                      Avatar by Destructo Girl

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bonnaleah View Post
                        I don't know, I guess on the surface it might seem like a lie...however when the totality of the text is considered together I believe it's a pretty good summation .

                        Buffy as the slayer has a duty to protect the world...Angel as a champion of the PTB also had a duty to protect the world...End of Days was coming, meaning a sooner death for Buffy....Buffy takes chances to protect human Angel, putting the lives of the ones they were both meant to protect at risk....together they were powerful, alone they are dead...(together as in "fighting as a team" even if separately)....How then can they be together if the cost is Buffy's life...or other lives? Buffy understood and she did realize that they belonged to the world....Angel just realized it sooner.
                        Hmmm, this still isn't great though IMO. Angel has a tendency to condescend to Buffy and always try to make her life decisions for her. It doesn't fit with Buffy to not fight and look for a way through, Angel decided that it wasn't for the best, for either of them, and just made the decision I think that is extremely arrogant. It was prophesized that Buffy would die at the hand of the master, she did and she was revived by the love and support of her friends (inc Angel), he should know better than to simply acquiesce and hand his life and decisions over. Buffy has faced many apocalypses and won, this just doesn't seem 'the way' things are done. Yes, of course it is a 'greater good' sacrificing scenario but if Angel actually shared his relationship with Buffy with Buffy then they would be greater than their individual components but he never does. Buffy 'understood' because her nodding dumbly at Angel is the way they write their character dynamics, she doesn't behave like that with anyone else and she was very young, full of love and naive then. It is all yet again another example of how their romance fits into tragedy rather than triumph for me.

                        I really liked Angel in S1-3 of Buffy, up until the point when he decided for them both that it couldn't work and walked away (not easily I comletely accept but he made the decision for them). This then became the pattern for them and nothing good comes of it, he never stands and fights for her and perhaps it is because 'the world owns him' and it is for the greater good, but, in which case, leave her alone and let those reasons stand because he only hurts her when he goes anywhere near. I am sorry I can't clap him realising the tragedy of their relationship in its 'never meant to be' sense when he then destroys everything around her trying to manipulate the world/scenario for his end aims. He is willing to sacrifice a lot when he gets a scenario where he gets Buffy and superpowers, then his morals waiver. Look, he does her no good, it is a destructive love and perhaps S8 will have drummed that into him now?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bonnaleah View Post
                          So you haven't watched IWRY then? I don't know what the synopsis said but there's no way imo to watch the episode and come away with the thought that Angel acted out of anything but selfless love for Buffy. The text from the episode even says it.
                          The text certainly puts it out there as a possibility. But it's just characters reacting. We get to react, too. I think Angel makes a sacrifice. I also think it's part of a pattern of him finding reasons to not be with Buffy. I can give you text on that, too -- from Buffy herself. But as I said, I think our own judgments trump the reactions of other characters. My own is that Angel is a mix of motives, some good, some not so good.

                          I just wanted to point out something about Hero, since you brought up the quote:

                          Doyle: "Or maybe Cordelia was right about you being the real deal in the hero department. See, I would have chosen the pleasures of the flesh over duty and honor any day of the week. I just don't have that strength.'

                          Angel: "You never know your strength until you're tested."
                          The irony, of course, is that Doyle is misjudging himself right here. He does have the strength to be the hero, cause the title of this episode refers to Doyle, not Angel. Another reason to not just quote character's opinions as though they were Gospel Truth.

                          I also mention it because I kind of love it that the parallel episode on BtVS is Something Blue. Viewed as a set, we have Spuffy paired with the episode where Doyle turns out to be the real hero, not Angel. For a Spike-centric fan like myself it works as foreshadowing, because like Doyle, Spike goes on to die to save the world. Like Doyle, he gets a romantic gesture from the woman he loved, who didn't really see him that way (and who assumes Angel is The Hero). In Your Welcome, Cordy dusts out the tape of Doyle from this episode, to remind Angel about what it means to be a hero, in the season that deals a lot with Angel's fears that Spike is the real hero after all. I like the Doyle/Spike parallels a lot.
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                          "I don't want to be this good-looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear." Banner Credit: Vampmogs

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                          • #28
                            EVERY NIGHT I SAVE YOU.

                            Buffy doesn’t need saving. Spike does. Angel does.

                            I am following your reason and your ideas of preference for it, Stoney, but here is the thing and it is a thing that is very hard to point to, except in an Irish way. Spike is made the poet. He even gets the “poem” literally. He drinks as his means to have the “his ideal: the poetry” flow through him, as he knows he has no tongue, no song, that capture the CONCEPT behind the word “effulgent.” The word is a mule, carrying meter and metaphor, but not the POETRY: the fire. The spirits is not only the addiction to relief/release pain, it is the prayer for this connection for POETRY to take and ‘move through him” or unite the poet to the poetry.

                            Angel is given the actual poetry in all the aspects I can think of, even in the voice over of Passions, but mostly he refuses the expresses of it and is the mule of metaphor; it is the search of the POET to capture the Unattainable Fire of the POEM itself. THAT is the “redemption” the Peace” the grail, Ireland herself. It is why he is given “illuminated King” symbols, even though he is “allergic” to sunlight until he STOPS being the duality. He imposes it on himself, true, but so does Buffy in her “slavery” to the idea of “hero” to save “them”—the world outside of herself when she already is THE POEM.

                            Spike showed this dissolution of duality when he, was shown as Shiva, was both consumed by fire/became the fire and then NOTHING: THE VOID: FEMALE! Even though we saw Buffy going off in the ‘female role” in her dance of death and action (the fire) She was NOT consumed, but was the consuming fire. HOWEVER, She attached to fear and KEPT her army. Spike “not there” is the poet/poem.

                            And he is NEVER shown “attaining Buffy.herself” EXCEPT in the SAME OBLITERATION of one or the other in that duality OF SELF. Angel loses his soul, goes to hell, and is reborn. Buffy goes to hell, and Spike goes for a soul and is reborn. All THREE have shown us the descriptive of crazy on obtaining heaven and obtaining hell, but not IT: the annhilation of duality into ONE, which Angel and Buffy show, over and over; but not the follow through of the VOID WITH EACH OTHER: poet/poem is “meaningless.” The perfection of the JEWEL/sparkle on the waters, the sparkle so WE can see the reflected illumination of the river that is always changing/still at once. It is NOT about taking out the garbage and “roles” conducted in playing house, not even the dance of “learning how to fight.”

                            So is that or is that not “the same” as Angel, from you POV in HOW LOVE DOESN’T WORK? But is SUFFERING? Notice that Doyle was consume/became the fire and WAS GONE. Angel’s transformation is in the suffering of the poet who knows where the poem is, but can’t complete the union with it, in how he views HIMSELF: the mule carrying the metaphor THAT CURSES HIM.

                            The story of Buffy and Angel is the fit of paradox into poet/poem that insists on suffering in duality. Spike and Buffy are “kept apart” because Buffy doesn’t “understand” she is the fire/poem and, you watch, Spike, the hero, is gonna go BUGGY!

                            I also think that idea of Angel being with Buffy and Being Apart from Buffy was shown in season 8. Each is strong on the hero front of self sacrifice because they carry the other "within." They were supposed to stay strong and be ONE, in Twilight, and choose the VOID, NOT HEROING. In their UNION-end of duality in Twlight, Buffy chose "the world"--her mistake to NOT choose the VOID, that Angel accepted, which is HIS heroism, seen as "so terrible and sinful and selfish" when it is the POINT: to encompass one's own understanding of the mind: to be the 'thing' behind the actual poetry ITSELF; it led to 'the END of the WORLD' in that end of "paradox in union" to save "REFLECTED aspects of herself." It wasn't about the "dirt" or "saving Xander." Xander actually is the only "everyman" carefully "saved" as IT.

                            She is attracted to the shiny of the diamond, but doesn't know she IS the diamond manifest everyone ELSE is seeking; and is therefore blinded by that light to herself.
                            HUGS!
                            Sybil
                            Last edited by sybil; 16-10-11, 10:38 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by sybil View Post
                              EVERY NIGHT I SAVE YOU.

                              Buffy doesn’t need saving. Spike does. Angel does.
                              There is a reality in Spike that Angel does not have. He does have the poet about him but he strives to achieve in actual terms rather than simply feeling consoled with certainty of having a higher purpose. 'Every night I save you' is heart rendering because is not about Buffy needing saving but about Spike wanting to do the right thing and be the best he can be and feeling with every essence of his being, even though he was at that point without his soul, that he did not meet his own 'best' and let someone down that he cared about, he didn't keep a promise. Spike's ability to not surround himself with the 'deeper' meaning and to live in the here and now of his own existence enables him to connect to Buffy who is human in a way that Angel never could as Angel feels his need for redemption but doesn't 'feel' enough to achieve it. Spike wasn't expressing a failed 'duty', a failed possibility to be redeemed or claim the woman he loved he was expressing how deeply he felt his own failure to do what he felt he should. He sees his failings in a more real and grounded way than Angel tends and doesn't surround himself with intrinsic definitives to his existence that excuse whatever actions he takes and decisions he makes. I personally feel that in striving to find the deeper justification and purpose to what Angel does and is and how that matches his relationship with Buffy you remove any reality they ever shared and turn it into something that never has or could be and certainly isn't reflected in actuality.

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                              • #30
                                The irony, of course, is that Doyle is misjudging himself right here. He does have the strength to be the hero, cause the title of this episode refers to Doyle, not Angel. Another reason to not just quote character's opinions as though they were Gospel Truth.


                                I also mention it because I kind of love it that the parallel episode on BtVS is Something Blue. Viewed as a set, we have Spuffy paired with the episode where Doyle turns out to be the real hero, not Angel. For a Spike-centric fan like myself it works as foreshadowing, because like Doyle, Spike goes on to die to save the world. Like Doyle, he gets a romantic gesture from the woman he loved, who didn't really see him that way (and who assumes Angel is The Hero). In Your Welcome, Cordy dusts out the tape of Doyle from this episode, to remind Angel about what it means to be a hero, in the season that deals a lot with Angel's fears that Spike is the real hero after all. I like the Doyle/Spike parallels a lot.
                                Apparently you missed the part in "Hero" where Angel was planning to sacrifice himself to save the Lister demons and was prevented in doing so by Doyle ......

                                Doyle puts his hand on Angel's arm: "The good fight, yeah? - You never know until you've been tested. - I get that now."

                                Doyle hauls back and hits Angel with a hard right to the chin, knocking him down into the cargo hold.

                                Which is what the real foreshadowing in Parting Gifts was all about. Doyle rose to the occasion when he was tested just as Angel had done in IWRY. Doyle and Angel were both real hero's whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not.
                                Avatar by Destructo Girl

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