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Rewatch episode She, is it still the worst or do you like it more ?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    I'd say there's things to suggest he's morally ambiguous. Off the top of my head;

    - He slept with 2 soulless murderous vampires
    So have Buffy (Spike), Angel (Darla) and Spike (Harmony).

    - He has demon minions
    He has groupies.

    - He was messed up with the head ordeal in the first place and very well could have had both Angel and Spike killed with the bomb ruse (no guarantee they'd have survived)
    There is no indication he even knows about it until the end, when he puts a stop to it and sends it back.

    - He's seemingly not human if he's centuries of years old
    Like Angel, Spike, Drogyn. The series establishes that benign or even good demons like Lorne exist.

    - I agree with Nina that he's stereotypically portrayed as a mob-like figure however trite that may be
    That's on you for believing stereotypes. There isn't anything to indicate he runs the demon gang in TGIQ. They're just subservient to him.

    - He could have had both Angelus and William the Bloody dusted in the past but instead he's more interested in taunting with them then slaying them
    Buffy must be amoral then, letting Spike, Angelus, Dru, and Harmony escape and kill for 7+ years. Not even the perfect Immortal can overcome their plot armor.

    - Both Angel and Spike repeatedly state he has a "dark past" which they liken to their own. Yes, you can accuse them of exaggerating out of jealousy ("the vilest evil hell ever spit forth") but it seems unlikely they'd make up his darkness/backstory entirely. They're obviously basing it off of something.
    Which is nothing. It's what they want to believe. They give no examples of anything resembling evilness throughout the episode. Surely if he were guilty of anything worse than sleeping with Darla and Dru, they'd have mentioned it.

    The Immortal was just an amalgamated character of the 'perfect replacement' archetype. Shows like Dream On used it. Even the name The Immortal is from the Tick.

    Originally posted by eevol76vamp View Post
    In "She" the dancing Wesley and Angel was classic and funny but the rest... The main actress playing the demon just couldn't act her way out of a paper bag. I could never finish the episode.
    Yeah. I never got why shows and movies kept trying to push Bai Ling as having these sirenesque seductive powers in the 00s.

    As for the Immortal, he can be whatever you wanted him to be. I like the fanfiction that takes a character from a different franchise and make him into the Immortal. There's one fic with Jack Harkness that is superb!
    Exactly. What gets me is that it speaks more of their opinion of Buffy as a character than the shows portrayal of it.
    Last edited by HardlyThere; 01-07-20, 08:24 AM.


    • #32
      HardlyThere I am not going to offer a rebuttal quote for quote as I already explicitly stated that there could be valid explanations for The Immortal's behaviour that don't make him evil if we had context for them.

      For instance, The Immortal sleeping with 2 soulless vampires isn't something just to shrug off with a "Buffy and Angel did it" because when Buffy and Angel did it, it was a meant to be a significant low point in their heroic journeys for both characters. Sleeping with soulless mass murderers was not a heroic moment for either Buffy or Angel. Now, sure, it's entirely possible that sleeping with Darla and Dru marked a low point in The Immortal's life and something he morally struggled with or came to regret but it's also possible he didn't regret it at all and had no problem sleeping with murderous demons. That's why I am arguing that he's morally ambiguous because we don't know enough about him to make a concrete statement about his goodness but we do know there's things about him and/or behaviours from him that are at least questionable without context.

      You're assumption that he's good is just as baseless as someone assuming he's evil. There's enough red flags to at least question his morality which is a far cry from saying he's undeniably evil.

      "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina


      • Stoney
        Stoney commented
        Editing a comment
        Very much agree it is the lack of context and details that has him appear morally ambiguous.

        Also, even though Spike's liaisons with Harmony weren't portrayed with the same weight as Angel's and Buffy's choices to sleep with unsouled vamps, just shallowly using her because she was soulless and he didn't care about her was still looked on as negatively reflecting on him too I think.

    • #33
      People are taking the Immortal to seriously. He was a joke character not to be given to much thought.


      • #34
        Originally posted by BtVS fan
        Even on the DVD he still seemed angry with her "she's moved and so should we" .
        How is that a statement of anger though? Joss was right. Sarah/Buffy moved on, so he/the fans/Angel and Spike needed to move on and quit begging her to come back. Unfortunately, he didn't seem to take his own advice because TGIQ seemed to be the exact opposite of moving on. I don't think the episode was degrading to Buffy or SMG, but I agree with what vampmogs said up above about weird it was to be so close to the end yet waste an episode on BtVS references and taking jabs at the fandom. The Wes/Illyria stuff is what keeps me from skipping the episode in rewatches.

        Regarding the actual thread topic though, She is definitely still the worst.
        Last edited by Andrew S.; 02-07-20, 05:27 AM.


        • #35
          Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
          I really don't think that Angel and Spike are acting out of character in The Girl in Question. I think that Buffy just brings out the more immature side of their rivalry. I think Angel's more in character in this episode then he was as Twilight in the Buffy Season 8 comic.
          Exactly.And as I've said about a dozen times I have no issues with 'The Girl in Question' at all.