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Rewatch episode She, is it still the worst or do you like it more ?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post

    The Immortal being retconned into be a ruse does nothing to change the guys acting like possessive a-holes. They were stand-ins for fans. In doesn't affect their storyline in the ep at all. On one hand, I think it's in bad taste because fans behave the way the writers allowed them to, always throwing them bones like in Chosen. Then after it was all sorted in TGIQ, Joss is right back at it.

    On the other, shippers are annoying as hell and a vast majority only care about ships. They deserve to be mocked.
    It actually makes them look more dumber since they can't tell/smell that's Buffy in the Bar. That episode completely ignores Damage too. Like why isn't Angel throttling Andrew and why wouldn't Andrew be even a bit wary of Angel given he back stabbed him

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    • Lostsoul666
      Lostsoul666 commented
      Editing a comment
      Sadly the comics ignore Damage as well.

  • #17
    Well, I have no idea what it makes me but I am a shipper, and any episode that has Spike and Angel slo-mo fighting to

    Once upon a lovely time
    Many million dreams ago
    Once there was a man in love dear
    Many million dreams ago
    Once he thought he had a sweetheart
    Then he broke the golden rule
    Never take your love for granted
    Wise men often play the fool
    Now he'd like to say I'm sorry
    Can't you see within his heart
    Without you there's no tomorrow
    Why should true love have to part…

    is a treat. Since I'm not a comic reader, I don't have any real issue with Buffy having moved on to someone else.
    But then that's just me.

    As for She - can't stand it.





    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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    • #18
      Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
      TGIQ is great. And yeah, it's hilarious how people claim it "damaged" Buffy, but they love her getting girls murdered by being a coward and she started a career in grand larceny. But hey, at least no one else is touching Angel and Spike's property. She is probably the worst. So on the nose and probably the most blatant display of Hollywood liberalism the shows did.
      I'm not a fan of grand larceny either (kinda OOC) it kinda blew up in her face when the military opposed her partly because of that. As for getting the girl killed - the girl knew the risks and took them - it makes her brave and heroic but it doesn't make Buffy a coward.

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      • #19
        Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post

        The Immortal being retconned into be a ruse does nothing to change the guys acting like possessive a-holes. They were stand-ins for fans. In doesn't affect their storyline in the ep at all. On one hand, I think it's in bad taste because fans behave the way the writers allowed them to, always throwing them bones like in Chosen. Then after it was all sorted in TGIQ, Joss is right back at it.

        On the other, shippers are annoying as hell and a vast majority only care about ships. They deserve to be mocked.
        You see I think they're possessiveness is gross and OOC - they're both better than that. I wish Joss wouldn't mock fans who see the show differently to him - sure some shippers are annoying but do you have degrade two characters and the intelligence of the audience just mock Bangels and Spuffy and possibly Sarah too - Christ that's petty and for me it ain't good TV. I'm not here for that but plenty of others like it so what do I know?

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        • #20
          I think wasting millions of dollars to go on a self-indulgent exercise where you mock segments of your fandom is petty and shitty enough. Using the third-to-last episode of the Buffyverse ever to do it is even worse and says far more about the people who wrote it and their judgement (or lack thereof) than it does the fans they're supposedly ridiculing. It was an utter waste of an episode in a series that was prematurely cancelled and already had limited time to wrap up everything up. I also agree with Vampadvo that the episode smells suspiciously like a passive aggressive dig at SMG.

          All that aside, I just thought it was poorly written. Angel and Spike act OOC, they completed wasted their last opportunity to utilise Juliet Landau and Julie Benz, and it just wasn't funny. I don't hate it with a fiery passion like a lot of fans do... I can't care enough about it to hate it. To me, it's just a bad episode. When people talk about the reasoning behind it though that does make me resent it because it's just so petty. I hate when writers get too involved with their fandoms and especially at the expense of the story.
          "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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          • #21
            I really don't think that Angel and Spike are acting out of character in The Girl in Question. I think that Buffy just brings out the more immature side of their rivalry. I think Angel's more in character in this episode then he was as Twilight in the Buffy Season 8 comic.
            Last edited by Lostsoul666; 29-06-20, 03:35 PM.
            My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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            • #22
              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              I think wasting millions of dollars to go on a self-indulgent exercise where you mock segments of your fandom is petty and shitty enough. Using the third-to-last episode of the Buffyverse ever to do it is even worse and says far more about the people who wrote it and their judgement (or lack thereof) than it does the fans they're supposedly ridiculing. It was an utter waste of an episode in a series that was prematurely cancelled and already had limited time to wrap up everything up. I also agree with Vampadvo that the episode smells suspiciously like a passive aggressive dig at SMG.

              All that aside, I just thought it was poorly written. Angel and Spike act OOC, they completed wasted their last opportunity to utilise Juliet Landau and Julie Benz, and it just wasn't funny. I don't hate it with a fiery passion like a lot of fans do... I can't care enough about it to hate it. To me, it's just a bad episode. When people talk about the reasoning behind it though that does make me resent it because it's just so petty. I hate when writers get too involved with their fandoms and especially at the expense of the story.

              I think it was a Passive aggressive dig . Angel even says it out loud about Buffy falling for an older guy with a dark past who may or may not be evil. The message if the episode is they have to move on and at the same time the underlying implication of this being that she hasn't moved on. She's still doing the same stuff.

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              • #23
                Originally posted by Vampadvo View Post

                You see I think they're possessiveness is gross and OOC - they're both better than that. I wish Joss wouldn't mock fans who see the show differently to him - sure some shippers are annoying but do you have degrade two characters and the intelligence of the audience just mock Bangels and Spuffy and possibly Sarah too - Christ that's petty and for me it ain't good TV. I'm not here for that but plenty of others like it so what do I know?
                Can't disagree with any of that. I just don't see how the retcon fixes the Angel and Spike aspect of it. As BTVSfan said, they actually look worse because they are being duped not once, but twice by Andrew of all people.

                I also don't get how it in any way devalues Buffy or Sarah. She's off dating and living her life. What's the problem? Shipper fans spent the last 3 years of the show screaming that she needs to get over her whole 'normal' thing and embrace what she wants. The last episode tells us she's done with the relationship fatalism. The Immortal character is exactly her type. Dark, mysterious and powerful.

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                • #24
                  Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post


                  I think it was a Passive aggressive dig . Angel even says it out loud about Buffy falling for an older guy with a dark past who may or may not be evil. The message if the episode is they have to move on and at the same time the underlying implication of this being that she hasn't moved on. She's still doing the same stuff.
                  I don't think it was passive-aggressive. It's just acknowledging the story. It's really no different than Buffy snarking about dating dead guys in Lessons.

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                  • #25
                    I think Buffy dating someone at best morally ambiguous is a negative storyline for her. It's close to what she was doing in S6, yet that was portrayed as happening because she was hating herself and trying to self punish. And of course she experienced how extremely negative getting close to someone who is soulless can be (possibly relevant, I can't remember if that was ever stated with The Immortal or just left unconfirmed, but certainly he was morally grey and not mortal). Sure the retcon doesn't fix how Spike and Angel were portrayed too, I wish it did, but at a minimum it took away that Buffy was dating someone who was possibly evil. I may be misremembering of course, I haven't rewatched it yet. But that isn't about getting over the 'normal' thing at all and this is where the fact that we weren't getting context for her is the real issue (compared to the undoubted negativity in her S8 choices instead). Of course people do make mistakes repeatedly, but without any context it just looks bad.

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                    • #26
                      It depends on what and who The Immortal is. I always thought that he was supposed to be some sort of demonic mobster (since we're in Italy and the Buffyverse loves stereotypes) who is amoral at best, in that case Buffy dating him is pretty bad. Since she is endangering her young slayers as well. On the other side, we don't know the guy. He might've changed since the days he slept with Dru and Darla. In that sense, I don't think Buffy was the biggest victim of this episode. There is wiggle room and some context might make it look better.

                      Angel and Spike were not that lucky. Personally I don't think mocking fans was justified (the writers themselves couldn't shut up about the triangle that didn't exist in canon until they started it in Chosen.). But if you want to do it, do it without harming the characters. Put them under a spell or make it Andrew's fantasy.

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                      • #27
                        Originally posted by Nina View Post
                        It depends on what and who The Immortal is. I always thought that he was supposed to be some sort of demonic mobster (since we're in Italy and the Buffyverse loves stereotypes) who is amoral at best, in that case Buffy dating him is pretty bad. Since she is endangering her young slayers as well. On the other side, we don't know the guy. He might've changed since the days he slept with Dru and Darla. In that sense, I don't think Buffy was the biggest victim of this episode. There is wiggle room and some context might make it look better.

                        Angel and Spike were not that lucky. Personally I don't think mocking fans was justified (the writers themselves couldn't shut up about the triangle that didn't exist in canon until they started it in Chosen.). But if you want to do it, do it without harming the characters. Put them under a spell or make it Andrew's fantasy.
                        There is nothing to suggest he's amoral. The whole list given from Angel and Spike are positive. Saving nuns, sending the head back. The view that he was the vilest evil hell ever spat forth was that of two jealous exes. The character is really just an amalgam of Spike, Angel and Buffy herself.

                        I'm not a fan of mocking fans because fans behave how the writers let them, but there wouldn't be anything to mock if they weren't acting like entitled fools. The squabbling back and forth about who deserves her and who saved the world more? Goes on even now.

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                        • #28
                          I'd say there's things to suggest he's morally ambiguous. Off the top of my head;

                          - He slept with 2 soulless murderous vampires
                          - He has demon minions
                          - He was messed up with the head ordeal in the first place and very well could have had both Angel and Spike killed with the bomb ruse (no guarantee they'd have survived)
                          - He's seemingly not human if he's centuries of years old
                          - I agree with Nina that he's stereotypically portrayed as a mob-like figure however trite that may be
                          - He could have had both Angelus and William the Bloody dusted in the past but instead he's more interested in taunting with them then slaying them
                          - Both Angel and Spike repeatedly state he has a "dark past" which they liken to their own. Yes, you can accuse them of exaggerating out of jealousy ("the vilest evil hell ever spit forth") but it seems unlikely they'd make up his darkness/backstory entirely. They're obviously basing it off of something.

                          Now, there could very well be explanations or context for all of this. Sleeping with a soulless vampire doesn't automatically make you bad (see Buffy AND Angel - but both felt ashamed about it and were at low points) and working with demons doesn't necessarily make you bad either (although the demon butler definitely acted shadily). But considering all that, I think it's fair to call him morally ambiguous.

                          "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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                          • #29
                            Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                            I'd say there's things to suggest he's morally ambiguous. Off the top of my head;

                            - He slept with 2 soulless murderous vampires
                            - He has demon minions
                            - He was messed up with the head ordeal in the first place and very well could have had both Angel and Spike killed with the bomb ruse (no guarantee they'd have survived)
                            - He's seemingly not human if he's centuries of years old
                            - I agree with Nina that he's stereotypically portrayed as a mob-like figure however trite that may be
                            - He could have had both Angelus and William the Bloody dusted in the past but instead he's more interested in taunting with them then slaying them
                            - Both Angel and Spike repeatedly state he has a "dark past" which they liken to their own. Yes, you can accuse them of exaggerating out of jealousy ("the vilest evil hell ever spit forth") but it seems unlikely they'd make up his darkness/backstory entirely. They're obviously basing it off of something.

                            Now, there could very well be explanations or context for all of this. Sleeping with a soulless vampire doesn't automatically make you bad (see Buffy AND Angel - but both felt ashamed about it and were at low points) and working with demons doesn't necessarily make you bad either (although the demon butler definitely acted shadily). But considering all that, I think it's fair to call him morally ambiguous.
                            It's explicitly stated that he's either inherently good or evil but follows his own path - that says Chaotic Neutral to me. He just seems like a guy who wants to have fun - however it never made sense to me Buffy would be attracted to such a person - Angel was good or at least good aspiring and she hated herself for being attracted to Spike when he wasn't good. Buffy at her heart is deeply moral or at least she tries to be and judges herself harshly when she falls short of being.

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                            • #30
                              In "She" the dancing Wesley and Angel was classic and funny but the rest... The main actress playing the demon just couldn't act her way out of a paper bag. I could never finish the episode.

                              As for the Immortal, he can be whatever you wanted him to be. I like the fanfiction that takes a character from a different franchise and make him into the Immortal. There's one fic with Jack Harkness that is superb!


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