Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rewatch episode She, is it still the worst or do you like it more ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Rewatch episode She, is it still the worst or do you like it more ?

    Ok so She, fairly or unfairly, is considered one of the worst episodes of Angel both for the season and the show.
    So do viewers still have that view on rewatch or do you have no appreciation for it.

    Myself I don't think it's the worst episode ever (Provider or Inside Out for that) but its certainly up there with them.

    The story and message are both a mess. They are trying to tell a story about the horrors of Female genital mutilation and the Cultural norms around it. Both issues are still relevant today. Sadly it just doesn't work. Worse they are almost unintentionally implying that maybe these women do need to be controlled as they are burning people otherwise.
    Also Wesley being the pratfall comedy suck up is just not good writing. The scene with him falling over the coffee beans I mean common.
    To me it feels like a rushed first draft and they needed to go back and change things and do a second.

    What are other peoples thoughts on this episode ?

  • #2
    What a fun idea, I might join you for a rewatch. Honestly I'm not even sure I made it through the whole episode.


    That said, She is not my least favourite episode. That honour goes to The Girl in Question. From what I remember, She is just boring, not offensive. Nor does it ruin characters.

    Comment


    • BtVS fan
      BtVS fan commented
      Editing a comment
      Lol I actually like the Girl in Question

  • #3
    Both She and The Girl in Question are weak episodes for me, but Inside Out I really like.

    Honestly the first time I watched AtS and experienced the combination of Expecting followed by She I was really disappointed. In succession they are terrible to view. Luckily Somnambulist is a favourite of the season and the memory of how good the show could be saw me through the first time I hit the Expecting/She combo. Then knowing how good it would be again and all that comes afterwards saw me through the two on my first rewatch (I never skip episodes). I don't think either episode lacks entirely, but both miss the mark more than most others do. As you say, the issue of female genital mutilation and the cultural aspects of such are interesting, but it just isn't dealt with well. I put She and Expecting as two of the worst episodes in the verse.

    Comment


    • BtVS fan
      BtVS fan commented
      Editing a comment
      I admit iv just seen both Expecting and She and neither hold up under Rewatch. Though I would argue Inside out is worse since the writers are having to rewrite there whole season arc plot during it. That and the whole Virgin girl murder plotline which was awful

    • Stoney
      Stoney commented
      Editing a comment
      It's a key moment for Connor in choosing something tangible over a promise of something he just can't trust is true. It works against his acceptance of Jasmine later and I think it's a really important episode for understanding him and as he's one of my faves, I really like it.

  • #4
    Provider is the worst Angel episode in my opinion.


    She is frustrating because I hate the main plot, but it has little side parts that I like such as Cordelia's party.

    I like The Girl in Question.
    Last edited by Lostsoul666; 25-06-20, 04:44 PM.
    My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

    Comment


    • #5
      Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
      Provider is the worst Angel episode in my opinion.


      She is frustrating because I hate the main plot, but it has little side parts that I like such as Cordelia's party.

      I like The Girl in Question.
      Provider is really bad and it can't be coincidence that the writer of that episode doesn't write any more after that

      I'm glad I'm not the only one that like Girl In Question. The Direction during the Club fight scene and subsequent chase is great. While the Wes/Illyria stuff is disturbing but in a really well written way

      Comment


      • Stoney
        Stoney commented
        Editing a comment
        The Wes/Illyria in TGIQ is excellent, it's true. I don't hate the ep, I just don't love it. Its weaknesses bother me more than those other episodes have, similarly to how I feel about Expecting and She.

    • #6
      Stoney Fair play if you like Inside Out. I wasn't trying to disparage your opinion, merely state my own. I apologise if it came across that way.

      Regards the TGIQ "weaknesses" I wonder of that's because of how Joss was feeling at the time with SMG . Even on the DVD he still seemed angry with her "she's moved and so should we" .
      But I still prefer that to the comics, where Buffy puts girls I danger by using Body doubles. That and the obvious so what she can't go to Italy and have a good time ???

      Comment


      • Stoney
        Stoney commented
        Editing a comment
        No worries, it didn't come across like you were trying to disparage my liking Inside Out at all, just that you were saying you didn't.

        I do prefer the retcon the comics gave than it being Buffy in TGIQ but I do see the issue with the decoys. I think I tend to lump it in with the general questionable and distanced choices she's making of S8 though.

    • #7
      Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
      Provider is really bad and it can't be coincidence that the writer of that episode doesn't write any more after that I'm glad I'm not the only one that like Girl In Question. The Direction during the Club fight scene and subsequent chase is great. While the Wes/Illyria stuff is disturbing but in a really well written way
      TGIQ is great. And yeah, it's hilarious how people claim it "damaged" Buffy, but they love her getting girls murdered by being a coward and she started a career in grand larceny. But hey, at least no one else is touching Angel and Spike's property. She is probably the worst. So on the nose and probably the most blatant display of Hollywood liberalism the shows did.

      Comment


      • #8
        Well I can only speak for myself, but it never bothered me that Buffy was dating someone else in a general sense and I certainly have never thought she was the property of anyone.

        The presentation of Buffy in TGIQ suffered from not having context. Her behaviour in S8 is definitely an issue in multiple ways and there is certainly an argument that it is far more serious what she is doing, but at least you're getting to hear about/see what is happening for her and getting a sense of what she's struggling with that's playing its part. The Buffy of the episode is only one part of what I don't like as much in TGIQ anyway, it's just that the retcon of that removes that issue from that episode (even if it raises other ones of its own within S8).

        I do generally find that episodes I don't enjoy as much I have less issues with when I rewatch them. Perhaps because I am starting with lower expectations, but I think also because I've had a chance to dwell and discuss them and generally my approach with the shows is wanting to look for the good in all the eps and wanting to appreciate the characters more. So in further response to part of the OP, although I do still think of She as one of the worst episodes of the verse, I do find I can look at what was in it and the topic raised and find it interesting, even if I still find the execution weak. Compared to when I first saw it and just thought it was terrible, that's an improvement.

        Comment


        • #9
          People take The Girl in Question as some sort of personal insult just because the writers had the nerve to lightly poke fun at the fandom.

          The Buffy Season 8 comic did more long-term damage to the franchise than The Girl in Question.
          My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

          Comment


          • #10
            Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
            People take The Girl in Question as some sort of personal insult just because the writers had the nerve to lightly poke fun at the fandom.

            The Buffy Season 8 comic did more long-term damage to the franchise than The Girl in Question.
            The Spike joke with the Coat always makes me laugh "Iv sent another 10 to Los Angeles"

            As for S8 I did this review a year or so ago on S8 and it still stands imo :
            So I read "Season 8" in which Joss gets to tell his story without having to worry about budget or actors or anything. All it needs is to be drawn. So if he wants to go to space or another universe he can do and he does.

            Tbh it's a bit of a mixed bag for me. This is gonna be a bit random so bear with me.

            First the Art. I love the Portrait pictures they look fantastic but the actuall panels urgh they look awful. Like the panel with Buffy and Satsu together. They are drawn almost childlike and it's not a good look.

            Ok 2nd the length. It's a long season with many issues and I feel like they could've chopped some of the middle out and still not missed a beat. There is some good stuff and other stuff that has no relevance to the actual story. While you have other stuff that is relevant that makes me go WTF

            Comment


            • #11
              Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
              TGIQ is great. And yeah, it's hilarious how people claim it "damaged" Buffy, but they love her getting girls murdered by being a coward and she started a career in grand larceny. But hey, at least no one else is touching Angel and Spike's property. She is probably the worst. So on the nose and probably the most blatant display of Hollywood liberalism the shows did.
              I always thought the retcon was done to appease the fandoms of 2 popular ships and no other reason.

              Could you expand on what you mean by Hollywood liberalism. Personally Iv always thought Joss was a huge liar and hypocrite when it comes to that both in real life and in the comics. But its Joss so people will defend him. Anyway for the comics Angel murders a ton of girls in the comics but the priority is simply bringing Giles back to life in S9 why not the Girls because Joss isn't interested in them anymore

              Comment


              • #12
                Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                I always thought the retcon was done to appease the fandoms of 2 popular ships and no other reason.
                Of course it was. It's why he immediately started teasing shipper factions.So he turned Buffy into a nun.

                And in fairness to him... Is he wrong? How popular would the comics be if they followed the original plan with Buffy and Dawn in Italy? They still would have sold well, but not 90K+ like they were and they would have been panned in fandom. If you were around at the time, it was quite a show of Bangels and Spuffies calling her a slut and a whore for betraying Spike and Angel (again).

                Could you expand on what you mean by Hollywood liberalism. Personally Iv always thought Joss was a huge liar and hypocrite when it comes to that both in real life and in the comics. But its Joss so people will defend him. Anyway for the comics Angel murders a ton of girls in the comics but the priority is simply bringing Giles back to life in S9 why not the Girls because Joss isn't interested in them anymore
                It's just fake. You seek to call attention to an issue, but not go so far as to extend yourself to critique. 'She' is an obvious metaphor for the horrid practice of female genital mutilation, but Joss won't go so far as to condemn the cultures that practice it because he'd be called a racist. It's true to life. Joss is a big donor in real life to victims of it, but I don't believe he's ever done anything to call out the perpetrators.

                Comment


                • BtVS fan
                  BtVS fan commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Well given the racism in Get it done, it's hard to take lectures from Joss on the subject

              • #13
                Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
                People take The Girl in Question as some sort of personal insult just because the writers had the nerve to lightly poke fun at the fandom.

                The Buffy Season 8 comic did more long-term damage to the franchise than The Girl in Question.
                No it's not that it has both dudes behaving like their worst selves if completely OOC it's full national stereotypes and jokes about the dudes being possessive arseholes - it's one reddeaming point is the short clip of 50s mod Spike and Dru - the rest of the point is pointless trash. I am so glad they made the Immortal stuff a ruse in the comics - boring idea.

                Comment


                • #14
                  Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
                  Provider is the worst Angel episode in my opinion.


                  She is frustrating because I hate the main plot, but it has little side parts that I like such as Cordelia's party.

                  I like The Girl in Question.
                  I hate Provider for the same reasons GIQ - OOC Angel although Cordy's quip that they earn't he money as the demons tried to cut off Fred's head edges Provider for me.

                  Comment


                  • Nina
                    Nina commented
                    Editing a comment
                    While I dislike TGIQ more, it's indeed OOC Angel that makes me hate TGIQ (and Provider).

                • #15
                  Originally posted by Vampadvo View Post

                  No it's not that it has both dudes behaving like their worst selves if completely OOC it's full national stereotypes and jokes about the dudes being possessive arseholes - it's one reddeaming point is the short clip of 50s mod Spike and Dru - the rest of the point is pointless trash. I am so glad they made the Immortal stuff a ruse in the comics - boring idea.
                  The Immortal being retconned into be a ruse does nothing to change the guys acting like possessive a-holes. They were stand-ins for fans. In doesn't affect their storyline in the ep at all. On one hand, I think it's in bad taste because fans behave the way the writers allowed them to, always throwing them bones like in Chosen. Then after it was all sorted in TGIQ, Joss is right back at it.

                  On the other, shippers are annoying as hell and a vast majority only care about ships. They deserve to be mocked.

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X