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Is Angel the Sentimental Kind?

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  • Is Angel the Sentimental Kind?

    I wondered if people think Angel is sentimental? Would he keep mementos of his life or old letters? If so, who would have written to him - Darla, Cordy, Connor, Wes, Faith, Gunn? What might they have said?

    I like to think he might keep a note from Cordy, something silly like 'Hey brood guy, can you pick up some cream for Connor's tush while you're out'

    Or maybe from Fred, thanking him for rescuing her and being her hero.

    What do you think?

  • #2
    He has a photographic memory, so that might be enough for him. And let's hope it is, because his home has been destroyed twice within 5 years.


    That said, I do think he is the kind of person who would keep all those things (if he had the chance). Also because he knows he will most likely survive his friends and Connor. Having some small reminders of their love and friendship, must be nice.

    Comment


    • #3

      I don’t think ‘fan fic’ would survive if Angel/us didn’ t have “stashes” around the world, but he was also very intelligent and understood that “taking” was the “fun” of having, not the “having” itself. “

      I mostly agree with Nina, as usual. And it does have to do with “memory’ which a reflection of experience once directly experienced by humans that can act to change/grow/develop (process of “becoming”) a human being.

      Everything means “nothing” when confronting “who am I” *within * the measure of time. That is why “survival’ is important to human “purpose” to even “be around” to ask about all that “meaning.” See an infant ‘instinctually’ grasp (safety) and find “food.” (mind and body). But *also * see that infant begin the life process of ‘being human’ as a “state” paradoxically “becoming” in the nurture of “love”—also within the same “space/time.” So, materiality and “spirituality” are the duality of this story’s “setting.”

      That means vampires, who are immortal and, thus, dwell “outside of time,” are “mimics,” or the very definition of a “preserved past” in “sentiment” and even “nostalgia.”

      Doing “more” or changing wardrobes doesn’t change the “condition” of a creature for which time holds no meaning.

      Thus, Angelus is also shown confronting the ‘pain of ‘surprise’ that drove him to near madness. He couldn’t quite kill Buffy, or the ‘surprises’ would end; he couldn’t turn her to share his immortality, for she would no longer surprise: she would be dead become vampire. So he chose to “end the pain” and kill her. What else he could do?

      And, I will NEVER understand the “killer slayer demon” and “soul” somehow “staying put” in some “resurrected” vampire Buffy. “Ensoulment” had to be the solution and it was a * curse *, as in ‘added to’ a being, for which there is always answer within it to even work.

      Because Angelus is intelligent, he “rejoiced” in the LOSS of soul, as a consequence of his now “unchanging state of being,’, that gave him freedom from pain, from fear, and from death itself.

      But I don’t think he could “experience” directly anymore, as he is a reflection of a reflection (why he can’t reflect light within a mirror, itself that is also reflecting light); and “access memory” that is “set in time” and yet is a reflection in how ‘memory’ itself works in a living brain; and is done “supposedly” within the materiality of a dead human, Liam.

      But the consequence of that is two fold: find new purpose, as “survival” isn’t the issue, and “what to do” when “more” and even “more” become ‘boredom.’ It is clear why ‘madness’ is the problem of being inside and outside of time at once, as Dru demonstrates.

      So, in the realm of “experience” as direct or indirect that is not “a flashback” but is held in “past time” and viewed “now,” means, PERHAPS, Angelus has no “apparatus” to access “direct experience” in a dead brain, which no longer can change/grow, as are the rules of the * extreme ends * (a circle?) of Time itself in what is called Life and Death. He can remember his own past actions, of course, but they do not change HIM.

      Yet! Within the truth of the paradox of life/death that is both “immortal process,’ in any measure of or over time, of the ‘human species,’ (so far), yet also gives rise to the idea of the “forever moment.”

      I have a hunch that Angelus actually “remembers” everything that he lost with his soul, but “consequences” were measured in the ability (power) to AVOID pain, fear, and death. But the consequence of that is two fold: find new purpose, as “survival” isn’t the issue, and “what to do” when “more” and even “more” become ‘boredom.’ Even the “taking” itself becomes “just” more and boring.

      It is clear why ‘madness’ is a problem of being inside and outside of time at once, as Dru demonstrates to some. Buffy was a conumdrum for Angelus, for he couldn’t “keep her” for more ‘fun,,’ as she is mortal. He also couldn’t turn her or that which she directly experiences for change/growth (becoming) ever more “surprises” would be gone. She’d be a vampire.

      And, I will NEVER understand the “killer slayer demon” and “soul” somehow “staying put” in an IMMORTAL vampire. That is the trifecta that IS madness within space/time and existence outside of it. Which is why people may believe Dru was some ‘uncalled’ slayer. And, when I don’t see Dru as mad, but as existing in past, present and future at once. Tough sledding.

      It rather conflicts with all that is descriptive of Angel, who originally was a vampire and “cursed” with the apparatus that enabled direct experience and some means to “existence” within time, which has to be different than that of a (dead, but animated) body with only a “demon.’

      Okay…Angel was “ruined;” and ultimately was certainly developed to NOT “know what to see” or “become”—really? A god, with a “mortal, yet immortal soul—huh?
      Therefore he stands within and outside of time and too stupid to ‘live.’ His “becoming” was to be completely blind, self Unaware and “neurotic” is all I could offer as kind description. I do think that physical sensory input, 'touch' seeing and smell, for examples do "trigger memories" and even the sense of 'difference' in time of then and now. Angel was capable of such appreciation, but he "put things away" because he also knew he would never forget every.single.detail. of the "original experience in toto." Angelus? No apparatus to do it (soul) and no reason to give 'meaning' to remember anything but "more."

      Everything becomes “sentiment” and even “nostalgia” when so badly abused of the “soul purpose” of losing all “direct experience” of a human being’s capacity to ‘change/grow’ in the face of certain death and within Time itself.

      NO, I can’t explain why “dameon” or “spirit” became divided into “soul’ and “demon’ as both immortal (and therefore outside of time); with the actual simplicity of descriptive of “good” and “evil” that reflect * human * perceptions and sense of ‘dualities’ or paradoxes.

      I believe that this is the crux of why “the soul” in this story suffers; I do appreciate the notion of “mind” as a “state” people achieve or seek to achieve that is suggestive of the existence of that “place” that is both within and outside of ‘space/time.’ However, my minuscule grasp of it is that I think “compassion” rather than “conscience” is considered the experience to “know what to see.” Vampires? Not so much.

      That is why “the trappings of an age” are the usual portrayal of vampires trying to “remember being human’ and why “mimicry of experience” is the realm of living outside of Time: the sentimental, no matter how much “more” is “heaped” upon it. They are dead. They are merely animated. They can’t change or grow. There purpose is not “survival,” as is the human’s purpose because ‘death’ doesn’t drive their “realm”—itself unchanging and therefore, outside of time. As I said elsewhere, boredom is the real problem of a materiality that can’t change.

      “Loss” is a condition of life in any measure of time living it, just as direct experience is the gift of being alive, not a gift for the dead in this “realm.” The dead are acted upon—life is immortal because the living must die.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes he was sentimental. It was his most annoying feature. I imagine he has bits and bobs in hired spaces all over the world. He probably didn't keep much on him after the season 1 explosion as he was sure to have lost a few possessions in that. Maybe he sent any little love notes to a locked post box to retrieve in 200 years.

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        • #5
          I like to think he kept some memento of baby Connor, and Cordy. Even people with photographic memories must like to hold something in their hands, feel the feeling physically, incase they start to think 'did this really happen or have I created this memory to comfort me'

          Comment


          • #6
            Priceless
            I wondered if people think Angel is sentimental? Would he keep mementos of his life or old letters?
            It's a nice idea. My first thought was - "Why? Angel has an eidetic memory" but, in actual fact, he doesn't. What he forgets (but has forgotten he's forgotten) is his father loved him. We don't learn this until A11 and (I think) it turns his life around. The memory's repressed - figuratively speaking, he's locked it in a box and lost the key. I really like the thought he unconsciously compensates for this by having an actual box with concrete mementos of the people he's loved.
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            • BtVS fan
              BtVS fan commented
              Editing a comment
              The Prodigal E15 not 11

          • #7
            I do think that he would keep things as mementos. At the start of The Price, when they are fixing Angel's room, he stops them throwing a charred table because it's an antique, so I don't think that he is immune to feeling attachments to items generally. So add in a personal connection, like when he then finds the snowglobe and is musing why he bought it, I think the possibility of it raising memory and bringing emotional connections means that yeah, I think Angel would keep things. It can be hard to look at things again as reminders, particularly in situations of traumatic loss like with Connor, but I think he'd still keep items to have even very bittersweet memories. Doesn't he have antiques in display cases in his flat in BtVS S1? I think it's another indication that he appreciates looking on things for his internal response to them, so personal items could be even more appealing.

            I would have thought for someone with a memory as he has, keeping photographs would be especially interesting. Seeing an actual 'capture' and knowing how it compares to his mind's image.

            Comment


            • #8
              It's interesting that we see Angel's place change. His BtVS flat was a pretty interesting place, while his Hyperion room was rather empty. His penthouse in s5 was even worse, it could've been a hotel room. It might be a sign that he kept those antiques as a connection to the human world and he no longer needs them when he has friends around him. But it's also possible to read this as Angel slowly losing himself in the battle. All that counts is the battle, no time for a hobby or a book.

              A bit like the personality change that happens in s3. Is he in a healthier place after years of depression and is that why he is less quiet and introvert? Or is he an introvert, but being around people 24/7 and all the stuff that is going on (him becoming a dad, leading the team, dealing with godlike creatures) causes him to be overstrung?

              Comment


              • Stoney
                Stoney commented
                Editing a comment
                He's really uncertain about his place, how he can join in with the fight and how to connect and join the human world in BtVS S1 the most too.

            • #9
              In The Bachelor Party Doyle opens up one of Angel's books and a picture of Buffy falls out and in You're Welcome it's revealed that Angel must've either kept the old recording Doyle and Cordelia made ("Our rats are low" "Rates!" "It says rats...") or at least a taping of their original commercial. So we know he does keep some mementos.

              And yes his residences in BtVS and early AtS were full of artefacts and art. His original flat had a lot of different pieces and the mansion had some as well. Joyce is seen appreciating the art (she runs her hand over one of his statues) when she comes to his mansion in Prom ("Your place is amazing"). In AtS Season 1 he also had antiques decorating his Bat Cave. I think he generally just appreciates art and has an eye for it but it wouldn't be unusual if he had emotional attachments to some of the pieces as well.
              "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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              • #10
                Priceless
                I like to think he kept some memento of baby Connor, and Cordy. Even people with photographic memories must like to hold something in their hands, feel the feeling physically, incase they start to think 'did this really happen or have I created this memory to comfort me'
                I'm not sure how a photographic memory works but I always presumed the BtVS (and by association AtS) had an idea of theories relating to the photograph - the photo in After Life (?) seemed to reflect Roland Barthes' idea that death is in every photograph. According to Barthes, the only thing a photo testifies to is that the referent (the object in the photo) existed. Everything else we "see" is the result of the spectrum and the punctum (what we bring to the photo but what is - paradoxically - always there). I'm pretty sure the text knows this.

                This from vampmogs is quite significant:

                Joyce is seen appreciating the art (she runs her hand over one of his statues) when she comes to his mansion in Prom ("Your place is amazing").
                There's a huge difference between looking at art on the wall and touching art - it changes the relationship between subject/object (does the object touch you back?). This idea feeds directly into (surprise, surprise) Touched (I think it starts in Potential/First Date). It's all to do with the gaze (which is why I love vampmogs metaphor "has an eye for it". ). It might be there in Dead Man's Party (aren't people "touched by sight? Not sure - can't remember but anything with a mask is significant). Interesting that Angel keeps/makes visual representations - distance is implied by the fact that representation is also re-presentation (photos, film, drawing/painting work differently and all have a different relationship with the real. I think it's the reason we see so many paintings/drawings/film references in S7 and why framing is so important in 7). It makes sense that Angel would keep something that symbolizes the person. Interesting that Angel "steals, hides or takes" a likeness, while Spike "steals, hides and takes" objects associated with Buffy's body (I think it's probably the difference between metaphor and metonym). It's there in the hands of the Claddagh ring and the poetry book - both are symbols. With Spuffy, it's real hands and real poetry. Sometimes I forget just how clever this series is.

                BtVS fan -
                The Prodigal E15 not 11
                I was referring to the comic Angel 11 (I think it's issue 10) - not the TV series. The Prodigal actually returns to Dublin.
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                • BtVS fan
                  BtVS fan commented
                  Editing a comment
                  No it doesn't. The Prodigal is set in LA (present day) and Galway (flashbacks) . Have you even seen the episode ?

              • #11
                BtVS fan
                No it doesn't. The Prodigal is set in LA (present day) and Galway (flashbacks) . Have you even seen the episode ?
                Of course I've seen the episode. I saw it when it first aired in the UK and about four times since.

                My first comment referred to the Angel comic, which I think is Angel Season 11 (TPB. Out of the Past; Time & Tide; Dark Reflections - 2017). The incident I was referring to takes place in issue 10 (I think - part 1 of Dark Reflections). In my second comment I used the phrase "The Prodigal" as a noun to function as a metonym for Angel himself (as in The Prodigal Son)...so - the Prodigal Son returns (as in goes back) to Dublin (apologies if it's Galway) in Angel S11. It's a contracted phrase in common use (hence the title of the TV episode and the 1955 film). I didn't mention the TV episode at all until you corrected me and it was never an explicit reference point. The point I was making was about the lifting of repression...which happens in the comic (we also see other memories come to light, which (IMO) radically changes our understanding of Angel - and Angel's understanding of himself). I like S11 - many don't.
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