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  • #31
    Well, as someone who thinks Skip greatly over-exaggerated I don't believe that Jasmine is responsible for everything. However, to play devil's advocate, Jasmine may have wanted to manipulate romantic feelings between Angel/Cordy so that she could pit Connor and Angel against one another as romantic rivals, send Angel into a tailspin, and make it more difficult for Angel to have to kill Cordy should it come to it.
    - "The earth is doomed" -

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Priceless View Post
      The Angel episode, Parting Gift was released on this day in 1999. Do you think there were issues of consent surrounding giving Cordy the visions?
      Out of universe, I don't think they were thinking that far ahead. They were just focused on sacking Glen Quinn and getting the series plot device to another character as quickly as possible

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      Originally posted by flow View Post
      As you all know I haven’t watched Angel but I am curious why it had to be Connor and Cordy who became Jasmines parents and why it had to be Darla and Angel who became Connor‘s. What if Lindsay has fathered Darla‘s child? Or if Angel and Drusilla has become parents to Connor? Would Jasmine had called it uncle?

      Did she also magistrate the marriage of Cordy‘s parents? And their's parents marriage? How far does this go back?

      flow
      Why haven't you watched Angel, your missing out. If only for the Crossovers as Faith's arc ends on Ats S1 from Who Are You .
      Also Spoilers Spike is brought back from the dead onto Angel S5 and the amulet comes from Lindsey who did it for reasons ....

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Willow from Buffy View Post
        Exactly. If Angel hadn't been in love with Cordelia, he would have tried to stop Cordelia and Connor's inappropriate relationship.
        A guy who pursued a 16 year old?

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        • #34
          I think I can see WfB‘s point here. If you compare the Connor/Cordy situation to Buffy/Angel, than Angel takes Joyce part. Joyce did interfere but how would she have acted if she had been in love with Angel herself? Would she still have given him her little speech?

          I am still not sure though if this was part of the plan or if it simply happened.

          flow
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          • #35
            Originally posted by flow View Post
            I think I can see WfB‘s point here. If you compare the Connor/Cordy situation to Buffy/Angel, than Angel takes Joyce part. Joyce did interfere but how would she have acted if she had been in love with Angel herself? Would she still have given him her little speech?

            I am still not sure though if this was part of the plan or if it simply happened.

            flow
            Angel had zero issues with the relationship just a few months later in IWRY. She was still 18 and no more able to make life choices (in his opinion) than she was in May. I really don't think Angel would have a leg to stand on if he condemned from on outsider perspective. Not that I'm defending Connor/JasCordy or anything.

            I don't think C/A had anything to do with Jasmine's plan, either. You don't have to control everything to get the outcome you want. At most, perhaps their developing attraction is what made Jasmine and Skip choose that time to kick their plan into 5th gear.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Priceless View Post
              I agree that this is what is happening in the show, but irl I don't think it would matter if you Cordy were your best friend or you are in love with her, I think your reactions would be the same, because Connor is your son.
              I think it would be difficult in real life, too. You cannot tell your son he can't date someone, only to start dating them yourself. However, you'd think Angel would give up on getting Cordelia himself after she starts sleeping with Connor, but he doesn't.

              Originally posted by Priceless View Post
              Why isn't Skip dripping ideas into Angel's mind?
              Cordelia calls Angel immediately after she has the vision. He correctly assumes she will want to talk about their love for each other, and so Angel spends the entire time underneath the sea dreaming about what would have happened if they had managed to meet up.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                Well, as someone who thinks Skip greatly over-exaggerated I don't believe that Jasmine is responsible for everything. However, to play devil's advocate, Jasmine may have wanted to manipulate romantic feelings between Angel/Cordy so that she could pit Connor and Angel against one another as romantic rivals, send Angel into a tailspin, and make it more difficult for Angel to have to kill Cordy should it come to it.
                But why does all the manipulation seem to be towards Cordy, when it is Angel that really has to feel in love with Cordy to be in a tailspin. I think Skip should have been whispering these things to him, not to Cordy

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                Out of universe, I don't think they were thinking that far ahead. They were just focused on sacking Glen Quinn and getting the series plot device to another character as quickly as possible
                You are probably right, and in 1999 'consent' was not as big an issue as it is nowadays. But even so, forcing something so dangerous onto Cordy was questionable even then.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                  To an extent, yes.

                  Ultimately Cordy didn't choose to have the visions and Doyle did force them upon her and given how they very nearly kill her that's somewhat disturbing. Not that I think Doyle knew that would happen, mind you, but he at the very least knew that they would cause Cordelia debilitating pain and make her witness to some truly horrific things. The fact that Doyle gave Cordy no say over this is somewhat an issue, IMO, and she was right to be angry at first in Parting Gifts.

                  But I can't really blame Doyle. He had mere seconds to make that choice and the only other alternative was to let the visions die with him. Instead he chose to preserve the mission and Angel's link to the PTB and I believe he thought Cordy was strong enough to bear that responsibility. The visions saved a lot of lives so I think it was the right choice to make and one that Cordy came to appreciate and understand.
                  I’ve always believed that Doyle never intended to give Cordy the visions. While I understand why other people do, I’ve never seen it that way and Doyle never appears again to confirm it either way. I find the Doyle/Cordy kiss more endearing and romantic if I view it as Doyle kissing Cordy solely because he was about to die and he *had* to kiss her before going. But the nature of the visions ensured that they would always live on in some form, despite the seer’s death, which is why they passed on to her. Likewise with Cordy and Angel in “You’re Welcome”. Her ‘Oh what the hell...’ before turning back to him also seemed to indicate that kissing Angel was a spontaneous decision for her, not a pragmatic attempt to pass on a vision to him.

                  Originally posted by Willow from Buffy
                  I think Skip must be speaking the truth, not because Skip is trustworthy, but because that would make the most sense. If Skip is lying, then you will have to assume that Jasmine has this plan that require a series of unlikely things to happen, and then everything just falls into place by coincidence.
                  Jasmine’s apocalypse plan throughout S4 made very little sense, so it’s hard for me to believe that she’s this mastermind who planned the entire S1-S3. I think Jasmine was just an incredible opportunist. She saw the birth of Connor and knew Cordelia's connection to the PTB, so she decided to use both of those factors to her advantage and plan her move to take over Earth. But she did not cause those factors to happen. Connor’s birth was a result of the trials that Angel underwent to give Darla another chance at life in Season 2. It did not work in the way that it was supposed to because Darla had already been given a second chance at life. Instead, the second life manifested as Connor.

                  I'd say the one good thing about the Jasmine plot is that it retroactively made sense of all the Saint Cordy nonsense in S3. But beyond that, it was a mess. I get a headache every time I try to rationalize and make sense of the events of that season, particularly the whole Cordy/Connor fiasco. Like, how did combining their genes result in Gina Torres, of all people?

                  It also really bugs me how Charisma Carpenter is always used as the scapegoat to explain why the storyline didn’t work when in reality, the writers were just incompetent. The flaws in the convoluted Jasmine storyline weren't that different from the flaws in the First Evil storyline that same year. Only in the case of the latter, they didn’t have a pregnant actress to place the blame on.
                  Last edited by Andrew S.; 21-12-19, 07:56 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Andrew S. View Post
                    Jasmine’s apocalypse plan throughout S4 made very little sense, so it’s hard for me to believe that she’s this mastermind who planned the entire S1-S3. I think Jasmine was just an incredible opportunist. She saw the birth of Connor and knew Cordelia's connection to the PTB, so she decided to use both of those factors to her advantage and plan her move to take over Earth.
                    If that is the case, then they pounced on Cordelia incredibly fast, because "Birthday" is two episodes after "Lullaby." And how was Darla's pregnancy possible, if Jasmine did not act until after Connor was born? Someone must have used some mojo to help Darla conceive and then protect the baby from her abortion attempts.

                    Originally posted by Andrew S. View Post
                    It also really bugs me how Charisma Carpenter is always used as the scapegoat to explain why the storyline didn’t work when in reality, the writers were just incompetent.
                    Too true.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Willow from Buffy View Post
                      If that is the case, then they pounced on Cordelia incredibly fast, because "Birthday" is two episodes after "Lullaby." And how was Darla's pregnancy possible, if Jasmine did not act until after Connor was born? Someone must have used some mojo to help Darla conceive and then protect the baby from her abortion attempts.
                      I said in my previous post that Connor’s birth was a result of the trials that Angel underwent to give Darla another chance at life in Season 2. It did not work in the way that it was supposed to because Darla had already been given a second chance at life. Instead, the second life manifested as her being able to conceive Connor. Jasmine herself explains this in "Shiny Happy People", saying she manipulated the trials to work that way. However, it's easier for me to believe that the trial went that way without her interference.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Andrew S. View Post
                        I said in my previous post that Connor’s birth was a result of the trials that Angel underwent to give Darla another chance at life in Season 2. It did not work in the way that it was supposed to because Darla had already been given a second chance at life. Instead, the second life manifested as her being able to conceive Connor. Jasmine herself explains this in "Shiny Happy People", saying she manipulated the trials to work that way. However, it's easier for me to believe that the trial went that way without her interference.
                        Ah, I see. I guess it doesn't make a ton of sense either way. It is more a matter of choosing the explanation that sounds the least ridiculous.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Willow from Buffy View Post
                          Ah, I see. I guess it doesn't make a ton of sense either way. It is more a matter of choosing the explanation that sounds the least ridiculous.
                          Anything's better than the diehard Bangels' head-canon that Connor was the child of Buffy and Angel conceived during the events of I Will Remember You, saved by the Powers That Be, who then used Darla's undead body to allow him to be born. Or Lactating Buffy, who came from a Bangel fanfic based on this premise, in which it was "proven" that Buffy was Connor's true biological mother when she got close to Infant Connor, and suddenly her breasts started lactating.

                          (I promise you, I'm not f***ing kidding. Somebody actually came up with this shit.)

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                          • #43
                            Colour me surprised because I only ever heard that Dawn was the Bangel baby concieved during the events of IWRY, saved by the Powers that be ... and so on ...

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