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  • Parting Gifts

    The Angel episode, Parting Gift was released on this day in 1999. Do you think there were issues of consent surrounding giving Cordy the visions?
    9
    Yes
    55.56%
    5
    No
    22.22%
    2
    It's Complicated
    22.22%
    2

  • #2
    To an extent, yes.

    Ultimately Cordy didn't choose to have the visions and Doyle did force them upon her and given how they very nearly kill her that's somewhat disturbing. Not that I think Doyle knew that would happen, mind you, but he at the very least knew that they would cause Cordelia debilitating pain and make her witness to some truly horrific things. The fact that Doyle gave Cordy no say over this is somewhat an issue, IMO, and she was right to be angry at first in Parting Gifts.

    But I can't really blame Doyle. He had mere seconds to make that choice and the only other alternative was to let the visions die with him. Instead he chose to preserve the mission and Angel's link to the PTB and I believe he thought Cordy was strong enough to bear that responsibility. The visions saved a lot of lives so I think it was the right choice to make and one that Cordy came to appreciate and understand.
    "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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    • #3
      I think there are issues with it but as vampmogs says, there wasn't really time to discuss it and the visions were a really important part of the mission and link to the PTB for Angel. The issue of consent that is problematic in it though is why Birthday is such an important episode for Cordelia to me as it erases this when she does choose it for herself. Whether she would have done so without having already had the experience and felt the significance of the visions and what it brought to the mission is unknown of course. But the journey Cordelia experiences in personal development and growth from having been given the visions is so significant and even if it came later, there eventually was a degree of choice. So really I think 'yes', but whilst acknowledging that 'it's complicated'.

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      • #4
        Everyone is way too trusting of these Powers That Be people, and just like the Watchers Council and the Initiative, the Powers That Be are incompetent and they care nothing at all about the individual.

        Buffy smells a rat immediately upon learning about them. "They could be prankster."

        There is not a single thing about The Powers That Be that isn't suspicious.

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        • #5
          That's how it all turned out anyway. TPTB was actually Jasmine and the whole thing just part of an evil machination to be birthed into the world.

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          • #6
            Not the whole thing, no. Jasmine was said to be just one power who went rogue. After Jasmine's death in Season 4 the rest of the PTB do Cordy a favour and allow her to temporarily "awaken" from her coma ("the Powers owed me one and I didn't waste it") so there were other PTB at play as well.
            "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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            • #7
              I'm talking about the visions to begin with.

              And in the end, though, what Angel chose to do with that last vision, as discussed in the other thread, was less than beneficial. So who's to say that was just another play.

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              • #8
                To be honest, I don't put much stock in what Skip has to say about Jasmine masterminding everything. The episode itself leaves room for interpretation during the Gunn/Fred conversation and it just doesn't make sense. For instance, what possible power could Jasmine have had during Hero and in Doyle choosing to give Cordy his visions? How would she have orchestrated that in any way? I've always been of the opinion that Skip makes a lot of boasts with absolutely no supporting evidence to back it up.

                Not that I think the PTB are necessarily trustworthy, mind you. I agree with Willow from Buffy that they mostly seem ambivalent or uninterested in individual people and are more concerned with maintaining a "balance." But Jasmine talks a big talk and I'm sceptical of most of it.
                "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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                • #9
                  I wouldn't call it the greatest writing and it's all totally a retcon, but I don't see a reason to doubt Skip. It's the problem with prophecy in both shows and it's why I'm glad Buffy more or less did away with them after Glory. Take S1, for instance. If the Master knew about the prophecy with the Anointed One and the season finale, why is he so mad in WTTH/Harvest? He should have known.

                  As Skip says, they all make the choices, but all were pushed into making them. If you put someone of a certain personality in any situation, while the outcome is not guaranteed, a reasonable estimation can be made of what the outcome will be.

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                  • #10
                    I think Skip must be speaking the truth, not because Skip is trustworthy, but because that would make the most sense. If Skip is lying, then you will have to assume that Jasmine has this plan that require a series of unlikely things to happen, and then everything just falls into place by coincidence.

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                    • #11
                      I've only seen it once but I remember assuming he was exaggerating to help break spirits and lean into a sense of inevitability, feeling a lack of control or true free will. I'm sure there was a good degree of puppet mastery in how people were led in certain directions and it is easy to see how Cordelia was played, but I think there could also have been some taking advantage of situations too.

                      I'm looking forward to seeing all this again and will think about this aspect specifically (I'm up to Habeas Corpses this week ).

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                      • #12
                        Jasmine needs Darla and Angel to have sex. Should we assume that she just waits for it to happen, or does she do set it in motion?

                        She also needs Connor to sleep with Cordelia, but there is a 20 year age gap between them. Was Connor going to Kwar'Tawt (or however you spell that) and returning as a sexually mature man a coincidence or did she do that to? What if Connor hadn't been kidnapped? Would she keep Cordelia in heaven until the day Connor's balls dropped?

                        It is like a really bad Oceans 11 movie, only instead of casinos, they are breaking into uteruses.

                        Imagine if we could have seen the story from the point of view of Jasmine, as she sets up this plan. She is explaining it all to Skip and the Beast in front of a whiteboard.
                        Last edited by Willow from Buffy; 16-12-19, 02:51 PM.

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                        • #13
                          As you all know I haven’t watched Angel but I am curious why it had to be Connor and Cordy who became Jasmines parents and why it had to be Darla and Angel who became Connor‘s. What if Lindsay has fathered Darla‘s child? Or if Angel and Drusilla has become parents to Connor? Would Jasmine had called it uncle?

                          Did she also magistrate the marriage of Cordy‘s parents? And their's parents marriage? How far does this go back?

                          flow
                          Last edited by flow; 16-12-19, 02:54 PM.
                          ................................ Banner by buffylover

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                          • #14
                            Was Cordy and Angel's romantic feelings, if acted on, the only thing that would have stopped Jasmine? If they had become a couple perhaps Cordy and Connor would never have slept together.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by flow View Post
                              As you all know I haven’t watched Angel but I am curious why it had to be Connor and Cordy who became Jasmines parents and why it had to be Darla and Angel who became Connor‘s. What if Lindsay has fathered Darla‘s child? Or if Angel and Drusilla has become parents to Connor? Would Jasmine had called it uncle?

                              Did she also magistrate the marriage of Cordy‘s parents? And theirs? How far does this go back?

                              flow
                              Jasmine has a demon henchman named Skip that tricks Cordelia into becoming a demon, as it will make the visions she receives from The Powers That Be less damaging to her. Later, he shows up and tells Cordelia that he wants her to assume the role of a higher being in heaven. Cordelia agrees, but it is a TRAP! and Cordelia is kept trapped in heaven, before more stuff is done to her to make her ready to be Jasmine's mother.

                              Connor is special, because he is a human born from two vampires. I don't know if it had to be Angel and Darla, or if it could have been two other vampires. Vampires cannot normally have babies, so Jasmine must have put some whammy on Darla's tummy.

                              Maybe Angel and Cordelia were the only people Jasmine could find that were stupid enough to take all of this at face value. "Rule the armies of good from heaven? Sure, I can do that."

                              Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                              Was Cordy and Angel's romantic feelings, if acted on, the only thing that would have stopped Jasmine? If they had become a couple perhaps Cordy and Connor would never have slept together.
                              But their love is part of the plot. Skip tricks Cordelia by giving her a vision of her future self confessing her love for Angel. Cordelia believes she is speaking to her fairy godmother or something.

                              I don't know what part it plays in the plot, though. I think the idea is that Angel doubts his intentions. If Connor and Cordelia hadn't made him so jealous, he may have realized that he needed to do something about their weird relationship, but his feelings makes him doubt himself. Jasmine-as-Cordelia keeps guilting him about her feelings and telling him that he is immature and unreasonable.
                              Last edited by Willow from Buffy; 16-12-19, 03:01 PM.

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