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  • #16
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post

    Her vision puts Angel on track to the Circle of the Blackthorn but that mission results in him having to kill Drogyn and framing a senator for being a pedophile - and as if that wasn't heinous enough he also has the senator brainwashed into believing he is one too. So besides giving Angel a bit of a pep boost, I actually think Cordy failed to steer Angel on the right course.
    I remember when "Angel After the Fall" came out that some fans criticised it for not dealing with some of the questionable things that Angel did, such as killing Drogyn.
    Personally I think that even if Angel had gotten renewed for a sixth season that the questionable things that Angel did wouldn't have been acknowledged.
    My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
      I remember when "Angel After the Fall" came out that some fans criticised it for not dealing with some of the questionable things that Angel did, such as killing Drogyn.
      Personally I think that even if Angel had gotten renewed for a sixth season that the questionable things that Angel did wouldn't have been acknowledged.
      Agreed. When Wes gets his memories back, he's not angry at Angel for raping his mind.
      He manipulated his friends into thinking he had murdered Fred. He let's Harmony go with a reference, even though she's a Souless Vampire who will kill again.
      Urgh and Joss bringing her back in Buffy S8 was terrible too.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
        I've always thought that the message in "You're Welcome" is confusing and at odds with the remainder of Season 5. At the beginning of the episode Angel is ready to quite W&H because he can no longer stomach the nature of their work. Arguably, this is exactly what he should have done and is more in line with the remainder of Season 5 which depicts working for W&H as a huge mistake and moral failing. Yet, Cordy returns and convinces Angel... to stay? And this is meant to be a positive thing? If she were putting him back on track wouldn't she have convinced him to abandon W&H seeing as how she believes he made a deal with the devil?

        Her vision puts Angel on track to the Circle of the Blackthorn but that mission results in him having to kill Drogyn and framing a senator for being a pedophile - and as if that wasn't heinous enough he also has the senator brainwashed into believing he is one too. So besides giving Angel a bit of a pep boost, I actually think Cordy failed to steer Angel on the right course.

        I don't know how they could have done it differently with Buffy. I assume that if she'd showed up Angel wouldn't have quit W&H either so she'd have served the same function that Cordy did. Yet, Buffy just turned against Angel in "Damage" for working for W&H so how could she simultaneously put him back on track in a Buffy-version of "You're Welcome" and have Angel continuing to work there? It's a contradiction.
        Oh, I agree. I was only stating what the writers said the intent was. Who knows how it would have gone had Sarah guested. I think, given how it was set up, that it probably would have been a Get It Done-esque 'WTF is wrong with you' kind of thing rather than what went down with Cordy, which yeah, was rather enabling.

        I thought the end of S5 did a great disservice to show and characters, but I've found I'm somewhat of a minority in that. I would also have liked them to get a little into the false memories implanted by the spell. Like, how do Fred, Gunn and Wes remember getting to where they were? How do they explain Cordy's coma? How do they think they came to be there at W&H? I think I've talked about my beefs with S5 before.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
          Oh, I agree. I was only stating what the writers said the intent was. Who knows how it would have gone had Sarah guested. I think, given how it was set up, that it probably would have been a Get It Done-esque 'WTF is wrong with you' kind of thing rather than what went down with Cordy, which yeah, was rather enabling.

          I thought the end of S5 did a great disservice to show and characters, but I've found I'm somewhat of a minority in that. I would also have liked them to get a little into the false memories implanted by the spell. Like, how do Fred, Gunn and Wes remember getting to where they were? How do they explain Cordy's coma? How do they think they came to be there at W&H? I think I've talked about my beefs with S5 before.
          Those same arguments apply with Dawn being inserted into BtVS and Willows mind rape (twice) to be fair. Put simply for both Joss didn't care or think that far ahead or wasn't that interested in exploring it if he had.

          Tbh if Buffy had come in, I think it probably would've just been some crappy love Triangle stuff with no resolution, so its probably just as well she didn't turn up imo

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          • #20
            They do get into Dawn in a minor way and Willow's spell was a forgetting spell. In both situations the lead up wasn't manufactured. Dawn was imply inserted into the current situation. On Angel, they basically had to rewrite how they go into their current place. I don't mean they needed to dedicate a whole arc to it, but at least a glimpse would have been OK.

            I don't think they'd have done a triangle had Buffy shown up, mostly because then they'd have had to resolve. I think Spike would have conveniently disappeared for the episode.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
              They do get into Dawn in a minor way and Willow's spell was a forgetting spell. In both situations the lead up wasn't manufactured. Dawn was imply inserted into the current situation. On Angel, they basically had to rewrite how they go into their current place. I don't mean they needed to dedicate a whole arc to it, but at least a glimpse would have been OK.

              I don't think they'd have done a triangle had Buffy shown up, mostly because then they'd have had to resolve. I think Spike would have conveniently disappeared for the episode.
              Dawn was inserted into Buffys life retroactively. There is no way things would've been the same in all those years . Certainly for Buffy a single child self involved character (which Joss admitted there was some truth to at the time) then suddenly becoming an older caring sister.
              She was also retroactively made out of her by the Monks apparently too !!!

              Willow raped Tara memory twice. One of which after she asked her not too. They then ignored that and turned it into magic is crack, retroactively ignoring the previous magic is lesbian metaphor they'd done, so no neither was minor.

              Joss left it open in the comics. It would've been the same thing on the show. JM was a regular so he would've had to have showed up even for just 1 scene.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
                Dawn was inserted into Buffys life retroactively. There is no way things would've been the same in all those years . Certainly for Buffy a single child self involved character (which Joss admitted there was some truth to at the time) then suddenly becoming an older caring sister.
                Joss really doesn't get to admit anything. Are you really saying there was a fundamental personality difference between BvS and Real Me? But anyway, we knew what was rewritten. Dawn was inserted as a little sister.

                Willow raped Tara memory twice. One of which after she asked her not too. They then ignored that and turned it into magic is crack, retroactively ignoring the previous magic is lesbian metaphor they'd done, so no neither was minor.
                I am not talking about severity of action. But the amount of mental space being rewritten. It was about 15 minutes. Fore Connor to be wholly wiped out, they'd have had to imprint 2 whole seasons of television, all directly involved in putting them at W&H.

                Joss left it open in the comics. It would've been the same thing on the show. JM was a regular so he would've had to have showed up even for just 1 scene.
                No, he wouldn't just as Xander didn't show up in CWDP. That's not to stay he wouldn't stay in basement playing video games.

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                • #23
                  Or they could have included Spike in flashbacks as in Why We Fight or Angel could have sent him on a wild goose chase. Maybe to Rome?

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