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Angel S 1 first time viewing and for anyone who wants to rewatch the season

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  • #16
    Originally posted by SpuffyGlitz View Post
    Aaah, that makes a lot of sense. So the whole "craving blood" thing was primarily a metaphor for the recovering alcoholic/ addict. I get it now. Thanks! And wow, some of those differences are super dark. I didn't know the episode was titled Corrupt in the original script. I wouldn't have minded if they'd gone that dark but I guess they didn't want to rock the boat for a new show.
    Have you seen E2 Lonely Hearts yet because I don't want to reveal differences from Corrupt which might spoil things for you ?

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    • #17
      Yes sort of. I'll explain - I saw "City Of" a while back and had been writing my thoughts on it, then I watched "Lonely Hearts" but only via a reaction video first (which is a pity). I've now decided to see them all by myself first without any intermediate reactions. But you can definitely talk about Lonely Hearts - I've just not watched ahead of that episode yet.
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      • #18
        Wow SpuffyGlitz, you've really brought up some great thoughts for the first ep of the series! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

        Doyle's position, how he interacts with Angel, their dynamic, as well as his purpose and role I think will just make more sense as you go on so I don't really want to comment on that specifically. I don't remember questioning how he knows so much about Angel (I found the run through detail of his start on BtVS an awkward inclusion in the ep myself). I'll definitely be interested in seeing what more you make of Doyle as you head on.

        Regarding Angel's social reticence, I think this can make sense coming out of Sunnydale. His start in BtVS was as a mysterious character that popped up and gave Buffy some warnings/tips and then drifted off again. His uncertainty of how he should interact with the humans he was hoping to be helpful to, how to both generate a connection and yet retain some distance gave way to mixed messages as he breezed in and out at first. When he and Buffy started a relationship their differences both drew them to each other and highlighted the pressures on them. Angel was constantly fighting with the desire to be around Buffy and receive some forgiveness/approval from someone so bathed in goodness and a deep awareness of the obstacles that would always separate them I think. With the negatives that happened in the relationship leading up to and into Angel decided that he should leave, some return to feeling uncertain where to draw the lines and how to help without creating untenable relationships again makes some sense to me. I think this is why they lean on that aspect of this being his chosen path but there being a deep loneliness in how he's feeling. His response to seeing Cordelia shows a genuine wish to not be this way in this first episode though and I think that works well to start to bridge where he's come from to what they want to create now. I agree a great deal in the episode is about making a distinction from BtVS.

        I had no idea about the links to film noir and the Great Depression, so thank you for highlighting that and providing some info. Your consideration towards the depiction of masculinity is really interesting and I don't think I've read someone drawing these aspects to the fore when considering the show like this before, so I'm really looking forward to seeing more of your thoughts. Unless I'm misremembering, Doyle has a moment of temporary cowardice when he is waiting outside for Angel and hears gunshots, even making moves to drive off, but then instead quite recklessly drives at the gates. I would be interested in how you felt this sat within the episode against what they were looking to establish in both the storyline with Winter's abuse and in setting up Angel's character and his initial interactions with Doyle when considering depictions of masculinity as you have been?

        So, here's where I have a problem. I hate that it concludes with it being presented that it's Angel lending a helping hand to Cordelia. Um, no - actually, Cordy is helping them. Both from a Watsonian and a Doylist perspective, she's providing an easy way out for Angel to have his cake and eat it too: he preserves his heroism by having Cordy be the mercenary one. He's merely "humouring" her money-focus because she's in need of "help". It just feels a little hypocritical to me. As if it's been done to ideologically disassociate Angel from the "crass" issue of demanding money for heroic acts. But I don't really understand - in S6 of BtVS this is clearly rejected by Buffy when Anya suggests it, without even a moment's hesitation, despite the fact that she's in dire financial straits. So I have to ask - was there any tension between the two shows? Because I can't understand how they wouldn't see the glaring contrast in this.
        I think the difference is that Cordelia needs a way to finance her life and Angel is providing her with an outlet to structure a business around that could do this for her. It is implied that vampires never really need to bother about money. Perhaps he has some investments he can call on or knows ways to sell some demon eggs on the side (), or actually harmless magic box style spell ingredients perhaps. But I think the distinction between the two shows and the Angel gang's business versus the Sunnydale group is that those in LA are making it a job. They will help those in need but will use people's requests to also fund work that can pay a wage. Buffy does what she does from a sense of duty and a destiny. She wouldn't want to put herself in a position where she was having to prioritise the paid job or feeling conflicted over looking for work above just patrolling on the off-chance of protecting someone. It's a calling vs paid job distinction. I'm not sure I'm drawing the line well, but it does feel to me like there is one because of the way they run their lives and the difference between trying to charge someone who you've happened to help (before/during offering that help) and advertising yourselves for people to bring cases to you to do on top of the work you do against evil generally.

        Has Angel/ Angelus/ Liam always been rich? I know Liam was supposed to have been an aristocrat if memory serves correctly ("Amends"), but why is he an exception in that he's a wealthy vampire? What does that mean, ideologically/ allegorically? He's supposed to be struggling financially here at the start of S1 of AtS but he's not struggling like Cordelia, evidently. Where does he get his money from if he's not worked before? I'm genuinely confused (sorry if the answer is obvious.)
        I don't think the answer is obvious. As I remember it Angel's dad was a successful merchant. So they were wealthy but not aristocrats. How Angel is providing for himself through BtVS or pre the business here I think is just uncertain. Perhaps he is selling demon parts or finding rare ingredients. Maybe he has stashed away some pieces of art over the years and sells odd ones now and then. I don't know. I may be forgetting something that gets highlighted.
        Last edited by Stoney; 17-06-19, 10:57 PM.
        to be returned...

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        • #19
          Excellent review. In general Angel deals with more grey areas than Buffy. Buffy has a legacy, and she has a home to live in. Most of what she needs she gets for free. It isn't until much later that she has to go to work to support herself. Charging money sets up an entire set of questions that Buffy never touches on.

          As for Angel's money - my willing suspension of disbelief is needed here. LA real estate is rather expensive but he seems able to afford a nice place. He has always lived in a nice place, and worn relatively expensive clothes - even before he had the soul. There are some things that never changed, even with the soul. Kicking Russel out the window is a very Angelus move - it's just that the target has changed.

          Now that he is no longer subordinate to Buffy. He's finding his footing. We saw that he was withdrawn from humanity for a long period before he met Buffy. Now he knows that fighting evil gives him purpose. Doyle and Cordy give him humans who are part of his life. I like Cordy showing up. She has the skill set they are lacking. And given that she has no means of supporting herself, It's a smart move for her. I love Cordy in this series. I've never been a Whistler fan, and while I do like Doyle more than Whistler I'm not that big on him.
          Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by SpuffyGlitz View Post
            Yes sort of. I'll explain - I saw "City Of" a while back and had been writing my thoughts on it, then I watched "Lonely Hearts" but only via a reaction video first (which is a pity). I've now decided to see them all by myself first without any intermediate reactions. But you can definitely talk about Lonely Hearts - I've just not watched ahead of that episode yet.
            Ok well Kate in Corrupt is a Cop undercover as a Prostitute while also an actual drug addict. It got changed to hanging out at a bar instead

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by Stoney View Post
            Wow SpuffyGlitz, you've really brought up some great thoughts for the first ep of the series! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

            Doyle's position, how he interacts with Angel, their dynamic, as well as his purpose and role I think will just make more sense as you go on so I don't really want to comment on that specifically. I don't remember questioning how he knows so much about Angel (I found the run through detail of his start on BtVS an awkward inclusion in the ep myself). I'll definitely be interested in seeing what more you make of Doyle as you .
            On the commentary Joss mentions that exposition was done for any non Buffy fans who might watch the show

            Regards Cordelia my issue was that she was meant to be so desperate she went to Russell's place to sleep with him. I just don't see Cordy doing that as a character.

            Side note Charisma was always very open. It was Greenwalt who was a fan of the character and pushed for her to be on Angel. She was nervous of leaving a successful show like BtVS and was promised, she'd be brought back on Buffy if it got cancelled.

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            • #21
              I understood why they'd included it, I just found it awkward. I'm not sure there is a better way they could have included it mind you, but that doesn't stop it being clunky and I suspect the vast, vast majority of fans were BtVS viewers. But yeah, I knew why it was there.

              I think it is hard to believe that Cordy would put herself into that position with Winters but she is desperately struggling and perhaps that wasn't emphasised enough to think that she might have considered it, but that's why I felt that she was. It adds a layer into why she seems vulnerable when she tries to invite herself into working with Angel, she really needs to get out of the ditch she was beginning to find herself so deeply in and sees the opportunity and grasps the lifeline.
              to be returned...

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              • #22
                Does anyone know how much in advance both shows (AtS and BtVS) kept abreast of each other's plot lines? There had to be coordination, obviously, given the number of crossovers. But was it like a bunch of episodes in advance or did they know the other's season-long arcs in advance?
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by SpuffyGlitz View Post
                  Does anyone know how much in advance both shows (AtS and BtVS) kept abreast of each other's plot lines? There had to be coordination, obviously, given the number of crossovers. But was it like a bunch of episodes in advance or did they know the other's season-long arcs in advance?
                  They used the same building for the writers but tbh I dont know how much the would've cared about another show when they were concentrating on there own. One classic example is Angel on BtVS says he's not fed of a person since he got a soul. When you watch Angel S2 Darla you'll know that false

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                    Regards Cordelia my issue was that she was meant to be so desperate she went to Russell's place to sleep with him. I just don't see Cordy doing that as a character.

                    Side note Charisma was always very open. It was Greenwalt who was a fan of the character and pushed for her to be on Angel. She was nervous of leaving a successful show like BtVS and was promised, she'd be brought back on Buffy if it got cancelled.
                    Joss didn't want her on the show but Greenwalt held firm and convinced him. CC was also quite open about the fact that she had very little experience when she was cast on BTVS and a hard time following direction - getting to her mark while remembering her lines. They had to hire a dialogue coach just for her.
                    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by bespangled View Post
                      Joss didn't want her on the show but Greenwalt held firm and convinced him. CC was also quite open about the fact that she had very little experience when she was cast on BTVS and a hard time following direction - getting to her mark while remembering her lines. They had to hire a dialogue coach just for her.
                      TBH Up until E10/11 she is kind of just there on the show and has no real connection to Angel until that point by that point she did fit on the show .
                      I read when it comes to lines that SMG was so annoyed with her over it, she refused to be on set with Charisma. If you go back and watch the crossover IWRY you can clearly see there scene together that they are never in the shot together and filmed separately. I can actually see where SMG was coming from though. Learning your lines is a basic requirement for an actress.
                      I'm also not quite sure what they could've done with her back on Buffy anyway. The High school bitch routine had played out by S3 anyway and they weren't in high school anymore either so it wouldn't have worked regardless
                      Last edited by BtVS fan; 19-06-19, 07:12 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Hey SpuffyGlitz, really insightful comments on "City Of". I've seen that episode countless times and a lot of the connections you made was stuff I had never even thought of. I hope you haven't stopped watching the show. Your thoughts are really interesting and it's great to see someone comment on the show with a fresh perspective.

                        Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
                        I read when it comes to lines that SMG was so annoyed with her over it, she refused to be on set with Charisma.
                        Where did you read this? Not doubting you, it's just genuine curiosity on my part. I remember reading there was some tension between the two because of Charisma's struggling to remember her lines, but I never knew it was to the point where SMG refused to be on set with her. Wow.

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                        • #27
                          Season 1 although not my favorite season has a few things that later seasons lack.
                          Since the season one cast is small their are some nice little character interaction moments that you won't see as much of in later seasons.
                          I'm not really a fan of the new vampire face makeup in the first few episodes. It's clear that the showrunners haven't completely figured out what kind of direction that they want for the show.

                          I personally think that Season 1 of Angel is better then it's sibling season(Buffy Season 4)that was airing at the same time.
                          My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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                          • #28
                            Hey SpuffyGlitz, how are you getting on with S1? Are you still watching too flow?
                            to be returned...

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                            • #29
                              I am sorry but I have completely dropped out of watching Angel for now. I will eventually watch it but at the moment I need to cut down the time I spend doing Buffyverse stuff. It's simply too much. Hope you go on watching and posting here, SpuffyGlitz!

                              flow
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                              • #30
                                Aw, I was hoping flow would jump in with her thoughts at some point! (I know you've seen more episodes than I have in S1...) @Stoney As for me, I'm looking fwd to resuming watching (I had to take a break for other reasons) but when I do post I'll jot down brief thoughts/questions/impressions on each episode :-)
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