Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

‘Angel’ Reunion: “We May Have Something In The Works”

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I consider Angel to be a darker (though not necessarily more adult or mature) show simply because its story is overall more tragic than Buffy's. Buffy, in my opinion, is a pretty positive show. There's a lot of darkness and tragedy in its themes and storylines, especially in its later seasons, but for the most part, I still consider it a positive show with a happy ending and characters that develop in positive ways. Whereas Angel is pure tragedy with characters who end up swallowed by darkness. Compare the endings. "Chosen" is about changing the world and ends with Buffy and her day one friends standing in the sunlight looking at the new road ahead of them. Meanwhile, "Not Fade Away" is about the fact that the world will never change and ends with Angel and his crew standing in the rain, cornered in an alley and probably about to die.

    Comment


    • Yes, I can see that. AtS is more tragic for the characters compared to Buffy which overall looks for people strengthening and being their best. But I agree that doesn't mean more adult or mature.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Andrew S. View Post
        I consider Angel to be a darker (though not necessarily more adult or mature) show simply because its story is overall more tragic than Buffy's. Buffy, in my opinion, is a pretty positive show. There's a lot of darkness and tragedy in its themes and storylines, especially in its later seasons, but for the most part, I still consider it a positive show with a happy ending and characters that develop in positive ways. Whereas Angel is pure tragedy with characters who end up swallowed by darkness. Compare the endings. "Chosen" is about changing the world and ends with Buffy and her day one friends standing in the sunlight looking at the new road ahead of them. Meanwhile, "Not Fade Away" is about the fact that the world will never change and ends with Angel and his crew standing in the rain, cornered in an alley and probably about to die.
        More tragic, I can see, though I don't agree with it*. I wouldn't really call it darker, just more pessimistic. It's more grimdark in a DCEU kind of way, where it's all so serious. This is contrast to Buffy where the dark is nearly always undercut because that's who the characters are, not necessarily because the story is less heavy. It's true that Buffy is more glass half full kind of show and Angel is a half empty show, but I don't equate either with maturity or darkness.

        *I don't see the end of Angel as much of a tragedy because it's all their own making. Not even in a hoist-by-your-own-petard kind of way, but they literally form a plan and decide to go kamikaze. Fred was a tragedy. Cordy in S3 was a tragedy. NFA really wasn't. In the end, it's sort of a perfect encapsulation of why I don't think it's all that more mature. Angel deduces that the world isn't going to change because he and his gang got foolishly in over their heads by taking the deal. That's not the world's fault. That's their own fault. The story never really acknowledges that.

        Comment


        • And yet when It came to how either show finally ended It's run I preferred the AtS final. It had a more 'mythic' quality to it. More akin to the legends of old, where depending on your point of view our heroes either died or lived on to carry on fight. I bloody loved it!

          Comment


          • Maybe we should have a vote on the best ending? It's actually a hard choice for me because I love them both

            Comment


            • I take the negative reading to NFA in that it was a needless kamikaze plan that really just underlined that Angel was still disconnected from what his mission had been and caught up in the drama of W&H. I think it works for the character, some of the others getting pulled into it is a bit harder to take but not impossible, but I'm really grateful to have the comics which moved them all on past it. If not always positively or easily. But I didn't adore Chosen either as a season ending.

              I can definitely see the point that the ending of NFA isn't a tragedy like what happened to Cordy or Fred can be seen to be. But I think having lost perspective as much as they did and having lost so many of their group in the process it is a tragic situation to leave them fighting the wrong fight, but still showing that resilience to want to fight. As I said, I'm glad the story didn't end like that.

              Comment


              • For me It did for as you know I don't see the comics as truly canon.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                  For me It did for as you know I don't see the comics as truly canon.
                  Ditto.

                  I don't mind that Angel ended on such a bleak or depressing note. That said, despite having major problems with parts of Angel's plan (like brainwashing the senator into thinking he's a pedophile *ugh*) I also don't think his plan was as horrible as a lot of fans do, either. So it's possible that has something to do with it?

                  But Angel pushed the envelope far more than Buffy did in terms of what they'd have Angel do. I think it's within the spirit of the show that the series ended on such a controversial storyline. And ultimately, as tragic as it is, there's something very unique about how the series ended with the characters essentially having to kamikaze themselves to get out of W&H. I liked that there was real consequences to taking that deal. It is very sad, though

                  Of course I say all this when I'm not rewatching Season 1/Season 2 which despite having some really dark story arcs and themes, were ultimately far more upbeat and happy. If I watch some Season 2 episodes and think that by the series end Cordy and Wesley will be dead, Gunn is bleeding out, and Angel has signed away his Shanshu and faces imminent death, it's horribly sad.
                  Last edited by vampmogs; 09-10-19, 02:59 PM.
                  "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                    For me It did for as you know I don't see the comics as truly canon.
                    Neither do I. Buffy abandoning the girls under her care/leadership and getting a coffee shop job in San Fran is a big no no for me.

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                    Ditto.

                    I don't mind that Angel ended on such a bleak or depressing note. That said, despite having major problems with parts of Angel's plan (like brainwashing the senator into thinking he's a pedophile *ugh*) I also don't think his plan was as horrible as a lot of fans do, either. So it's possible that has something to do with it?

                    But Angel pushed the envelope far more than Buffy did in terms of what they'd have Angel do. I think it's within the spirit of the show that the series ended on such a controversial storyline. And ultimately, as tragic as it is, there's something very unique about how the series ended with the characters essentially having to kamikaze themselves to get out of W&H. I liked that there was real consequences to taking that deal. It is very sad, though

                    Of course I say all this when I'm not rewatching Season 1/Season 2 which despite having some really dark story arcs and themes, were ultimately far more upbeat and happy. If I watch some Season 2 episodes and think that by the series end Cordy and Wesley will be dead, Gunn is bleeding out, and Angel has signed away his Shanshu and faces imminent death, it's horribly sad.
                    Joss says a soon to be dead Gunn and I think Illyria says he was fading and willl last 5 mins at best so he wasn't just bleeding out but dying I think

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                      And ultimately, as tragic as it is, there's something very unique about how the series ended with the characters essentially having to kamikaze themselves to get out of W&H. I liked that there was real consequences to taking that deal. It is very sad, though
                      Well I disagree about the comics of course , but putting that aside, I'm not convinced that the kamikaze option was the only way they could get out. If they were going to risk their lives and we believe that breaking their contracts would do that, then they could have just left and returned to fighting on the ground and regained their moral integrity. It would also have not risked the casualties that could be greater than just themselves by starting a war in the streets of LA. But it is a good while since I watched it so I might feel differently when I view it next.

                      Comment


                      • Although season 5 is the only season of Angel I have watched I don’t remember a brainwashed senator. When did he appear?

                        flow
                        ................................ Banner by buffylover

                        Comment


                        • Well,I consider After The Fall and season 8-12 canon so they factor into my views on the shows now looking back.

                          I know it's a unpopular opinion and one Joss himself disagrees with but I still consider Not Fade Away a cliffhanger ending and a season finale forced to be a series finale.As a cliffhanger season finale,yes it would of worked for me but it just does not satisfy me as a end to the series

                          Again,I know most here and Joss himself disagree.

                          But Not Fade Away now works much better for me because of After The Fall.For me,After The Fall is a much more satisfying series finale.Angel's story then continued in seasons 8-12 but if it hadn't,After Of the Fall would of worked perfectly for me as a cap to Angel's story and Angel The Series.Much more than Not Fade Away anyway.

                          Again,I know that's a unpopular opinion but it's just how I feel.
                          Last edited by BAF; 09-10-19, 08:46 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by flow View Post
                            Although season 5 is the only season of Angel I have watched I don’t remember a brainwashed senator. When did he appear?

                            flow
                            Towards the end? Maybe even in the last episode of season 5?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by flow View Post
                              Although season 5 is the only season of Angel I have watched I don’t remember a brainwashed senator. When did he appear?

                              flow
                              There wasn't. The Senator from Hell wanted her rival brainwashed to think he's a pedophile and Angel said he would do it but it never happened and he was only playing along with her

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by flow View Post
                                Although season 5 is the only season of Angel I have watched I don’t remember a brainwashed senator. When did he appear?

                                flow
                                He didn't appear himself but his campaign rival, Senator Brucker, who was a demon and W&H client, did. In Powerplay she requested that W&H brainwash Senator Mike Conolley into believing he was a pedophile to destroy his campaign. Angel agrees to do it to fool the Circle of the Blackthorn.

                                Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
                                There wasn't. The Senator from Hell wanted her rival brainwashed to think he's a pedophile and Angel said he would do it but it never happened and he was only playing along with her
                                No it did happen. In Not Fade Away when Gunn enters Senator Brucker's office she is speaking on the phone and says - "If Mike Conolleys recent confessions are true then he's a very sick man who needs professional help."

                                Mike Conolley was her political rival who she wanted brainwashed in Power Play. What else could she be referring to when she said this? Angel totally had him brainwashed. He was collateral damage for his plan.
                                Last edited by vampmogs; 10-10-19, 10:57 AM.
                                "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X