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Was 'everyone' falling in love with Winifred Burkle (Fred) annoying?

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  • Was 'everyone' falling in love with Winifred Burkle (Fred) annoying?

    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.



    * I've never understood the complaints relating to the 'everyone' falling in love with Fred being annoying.

    Fred looks like Amy Acker, survived in Pylea for 5 years, is a brilliant scientist and very likely the most intelligent member of both the Scoobies and the Fang Gang, and is a competent demon killer.


    - Number who fell in love with Winifred Burkle: Charles Gunn, Wesley Wyndam-Pryce, Knox. Angel didn't want to date her. Spike didn't actually pursue her.


    - Number who fell in love with Cordelia Chase: Alexander Lavelle Harris, Wesley Wyndam-Pryce (albeit could be simply physical desire), Allen Francis Doyle, Angel (albeit both Doyle and Angel could be because of Jasmine).


    - Number who fell in love with Willow Rosenberg: Alexander Lavelle Harris, Daniel Osbourne, Tara Maclay, Kennedy, Snake Lady. Possibly can include William Pratt aka Spike, albeit it was considerably less than his love for Drusilla and Buffy and ended after learning Willow is gay.


    - Number who fell in love with Buffy Anne Summers: Angel, Alexander Lavelle Harris, Riley Finn, William Pratt aka Spike, Robin Wood, Satsu, arguably others.


    - Number who fell in love with Drusilla: Angel, Spike, that guy from IDW's Spike (if canon), arguably others.


    - Number who fell in love with Darla: The Master, Angel.


    So, Fred's numbers are less than Cordelia's, Buffy's, and Willow's and more than Drusilla's and Darla's.
    12
    Yes
    8.33%
    1
    No
    16.67%
    2
    Somewhat/maybe
    75.00%
    9

  • #2
    I have problems with Fred. She's written like a boys 'perfect girl', and reminds me of Gillian Flynn's 'cool girl' from Gone Girl - she eats 10,000 calories a day, yet stays stick thin. She's a scientist, a physicist who's stunningly beautiful and wears tiny skirts and smokes weed. She can fight monsters, sip cocktails in the bar, is shy when need to be, yet ballsy when she needs to be monster-fighter-Fred. She's incredibly sexy but also very mothering. Her personality is so fluid, she doesn't feel real.

    She also, imo, causes the issues between Wesley and Gunn, and I know that's not a very feminist thing to say, but while with Gunn she encouraged Wesley's attentions. She didn't give a toss about hurting Gunn right then. She just felt like a tool to manipulate the men at AtS. At least Cordy got a couple of seasons as a real-ish person, Fred never got that respect. Not that it mattered, because they were both sacrificed to further a man's storyline.

    I have to say I've only seen AtS a couple of times, so maybe my view of Fred will change on this rewatch.

    - Number who fell in love with Cordelia Chase: Alexander Lavelle Harris, Wesley Wyndam-Pryce (albeit could be simply physical desire), Allen Francis Doyle, Angel (albeit both Doyle and Angel could be because of Jasmine).
    I would say neither Xander or Wesley fell in love with Cordy. Xander had a teenage crush and half the time he didn't even like Cordy. Wesley fancied her, but that quickly disappeared when they realised there was no chemistry.

    - Number who fell in love with Willow Rosenberg: Alexander Lavelle Harris, Daniel Osbourne, Tara Maclay, Kennedy, Snake Lady. Possibly can include William Pratt aka Spike, albeit it was considerably less than his love for Drusilla and Buffy and ended after learning Willow is gay.
    You've surprised me here. When did Spike fall in love with Willow?

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    • #3
      I'd question Robin being in love with Buffy. I think it was more an obsession with The Slayer as the result of an unresolved Oedipal complex (aka early season Spike Syndrome). If he was "in love" he moved on quickly to Faith (another slayer).

      Priceless:
      I have problems with Fred. She's written like a boys 'perfect girl', and reminds me of Gillian Flynn's 'cool girl' from Gone Girl - she eats 10,000 calories a day, yet stays stick thin. She's a scientist, a physicist who's stunningly beautiful and wears tiny skirts and smokes weed. She can fight monsters, sip cocktails in the bar, is shy when need to be, yet ballsy when she needs to be monster-fighter-Fred. She's incredibly sexy but also very mothering. Her personality is so fluid, she doesn't feel real.
      Nah...you're jealous is all.
      Last edited by TriBel; 24-08-18, 05:02 PM.
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Nah, she's another stick thin Whedon women who even though she's meant to have this enormous intellect talks like a baby half the time. A trait that used to wind me up about Willow too If truth be told.

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        • #5
          Nah...you're jealous is all.
          I am so jealous of the 10,000 calories a day

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          • #6
            I haven't watched AtVS closely so can't really comment on this..Did Fred have any major flaws/ dark moments on the show? She seemed pretty consistently sweet in all the episodes I've seen. I liked the character. Maybe her lack of flaws makes it seem this way?
            Last edited by SpuffyGlitz; 24-08-18, 07:21 PM.
            .
            .

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            • #7
              Originally posted by SpuffyGlitz View Post
              I haven't watched AtVS closely so can't really comment on this..Did Fred have any major flaws/ dark moments on the show? She seemed pretty consistently sweet in all the episodes I've seen. I liked the character. Maybe her lack of flaws makes it seem this way?
              Spoiler:
              She wanted to kill the professor who sent her to Pylea, but Gunn did it, thinking he was saving Fred from herself, and she never forgave him for taking that away from her. She wanted the kill, which could be seen as petty dark and vengeancy. I think she was also pretty rough with Connor when they found out what he'd done with Angel

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              • #8
                The Master was not in love with Darla - no more than Giles is in love with Buffy. There was no indication of anything sexual or romantic between them. Lindsey, however, was in love with her.

                Wesley had a crush on Cordelia and vice versa in BtVS season 3. It wasn't what I would call being in love by any means.

                Robin Wood was attracted to Buffy, bur definitely not in love with her.

                Spike in love with Willow?! What?! That only happened in fanfiction.

                As for Fred, the problem with her was not that people were falling in love with her - it's that she seemed written for the sole purpose of Wesley and Gunn falling on love with her.
                Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 24-08-18, 09:01 PM.
                You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                • #9
                  Fred: 3 seasons.

                  Willow/Cordy/Buffy: 7, 6 for Cordelia discounting S4.

                  Moreover, people love W/C/B but just as many don't like them. Cordy isn't fond of either Will or Buffy and vice versa. Neither is Anya. Forrest, Harmony, Amy, etc, not their biggest fans. No one dislikes Fred. Not even Connor. I don't even think Lilah hated Fred.

                  The inclusions and the exclusions in the OP tell the whole story.

                  People dislike Fred because of everything Priceless listed. She's "cool". She's the best and smartest despite being stuck in a cave in another dimension that was stuck in the dark ages. She can fight demons without superpowers despite being a buck ten, tops. She's Willow, sans flaws with the Annoying Characteristics Bar maxed out.

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                  • #10
                    The Master was not in love with Darla - no more than Giles is in love with Buffy. There was no indication of anything sexual or romantic between them. Lindsey, however, was in love with her.
                    I always just assumed The Master and Darla had sex. He wasn't in love with her of course, but he was her Sire, and I always thought sex part of the unspoken bargain between Sire and progeny.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                      I always just assumed The Master and Darla had sex. He wasn't in love with her of course, but he was her Sire, and I always thought sex part of the unspoken bargain between Sire and progeny.
                      Sex =/= love, though. Buffy-Parker, Spike-Anya, Cordy-Rando demon guy in that terrible pregnancy plot...

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                      • #12
                        Fred was on only one show - unlike Cordelia. There were three male characters and two of them fell in love with her. Then they spent most of 2 seasons on that stupid love triangle. It destroyed whatever chance she had of being a really interesting character with her own arcs. There were no triangles on Buffy - no men fighting each other for the love of a woman.

                        I like Fred less and less each time I rewatch Angel. In early season 3 she's great - weird crazy and brilliant. Then they decided to have the love triangle. Soon after Waiting In The Wings, Fred was co-opted by Gunn (and no one ever objects! This drove me nuts in the Rewatchable podcast.)

                        Fred: "We're supposed to be working."

                        Gunn:
                        "No, we're supposed to be doing some bogus, half-assed recon. That's different then working."

                        Fred:
                        "Still. It's our job."

                        Gunn:
                        "Actually, this was my job. Wes never said to bring you along. Probably wanted me out and about so he could chat up my girl."

                        ****

                        Fred: "Maybe when we're out like this we should - we should just work."

                        Gunn: "No. Can't do it that way. Maybe I'm greedy, but I want it all: the great girl *and* the great job. I don't care what Wesley says, but I'm not giving up either without a fight. (Crouches down so his face is level with Fred's) How about you?"

                        I mean really? Eventually she just did what Gunn wanted and stopped being herself. Maybe it was PTSD and insecurity - that would have been interesting. But obviously they ever really explored that idea.

                        When she tried to strike out on her own to kill a psychopath serial killer who was still killing female scientists - she was told she was too delicate. She was no longer seen by either Gunn or Angel as the brilliant scientist who survived 5 years in a hell dimension - she was a fragile flower who had to be protected. I don't ship Wesley and Fred, but at least he respected her enough to let her direct her own life. She never really came back from getting together with Gunn. By the end of the season she was a housewife/secretary/den mother - she did the girl stuff. In season 4 she was sidelined by love-angst and even more female duty - even her big arc was about running away..

                        I agree with everything Priceless has to say after that. They made her an inventor, then a physicist, and by the time she hist season 5 she was a genius in every science from medicine to geology. There was no coherency to her character. She was a great idea that mutated into a conglomeration of Whedon tropes. And she annoys the hell out of me.
                        Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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                        • #13
                          I was always bothered by the fact that despite how she seems somewhat childlike in a great deal of her responses to the trauma of Pylea (which in itself is interesting, I've no issue with that) both Gunn and Wes are falling for her and mooning over her. She's behaving like a trauatised little girl at points, hiding under tables and fearful of everything, even with some cutesy talking on top, and this doesn't hold them back in feeling attracted to her and wanting to start dating her.

                          In terms of 'everyone' loving Fred. I have to admit, when Willow has her crossover and she's also instantly flirting with Fred it made me roll my eyes. But really, before that point it was just Gunn/Wes I think. Other people 'loved' Fred in an affectionate way rather than romantic. Unless I'm misremembering, I'm only on my second rewatch of some of AtS.

                          As an aside, it's subjective of course, but I think being interested in someone and attracted to them to is waaaaay too often deemed to be having fallen in love with someone.

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                          • #14
                            Nah, she's another stick thin Whedon women who even though she's meant to have this enormous intellect talks like a baby half the time. A trait that used to wind me up about Willow too If truth be told.
                            Willow's not stick thin. She's fit. She's really, really FIT. It's a completely different aesthetic, not to mention lifestyle. I mean, have you seen her midriff?

                            HAVE YOU SEEN HER ASS?!



                            I WILL HAVE YOU KNOW THAT THIS IS A DERRIERE FORGED IN THE HOLY FLAME OF THE IRON TEMPLE! NOURISHED WITH CALORIC SURPLUS OF A BALANCED DIET! *CURSES IN FITNESS*

                            stick thin. Hmpf. Unbelievable.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
                              Willow's not stick thin. She's fit. She's really, really FIT. It's a completely different aesthetic, not to mention lifestyle. I mean, have you seen her midriff?

                              HAVE YOU SEEN HER ASS?!
                              I bow to your passion about Willow's derriere. It's true that Amy Acker and Summer Glau are more waifish than the other tiny Whedon gals. All are very attractive —you'll get no argument from me on that point.

                              However, Fred and Willow do share the "even though she's meant to have this enormous intellect talks like a baby half the time." aspect. I find it a tiresome tic — do these brilliant women think they can make their smartness less threatening by being cutesy? Nobody is fooled, and anybody who is fooled is a fool, and therefore not worth the effort of the dissembling. Why Joss felt he had to write TWO characters with this tic is most annoying.

                              That said, I don't care if everybody in the world falls for Fred. She's a nice woman, which isn't an automatic ding in my book.
                              Weird love is better than no love — Buffy Summers

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